Is this the end....or a new beginning?

[goodattitudegirl]

Undrdg,

Hi there! I wish that I understood the male perspective better. I appreciate any and all male feedback here.

Since I am not a WAW I don't really understand their perspectives. I think there are a handful of WAW's who post here ("sandi2" is one who provides great feedback, there are others, I just don't remember their names now) and can give you their perspective. I think it would be really helpful for you to check her thread.

Do you have much interaction with your W? You can experiment with the types of positive comments that she responds to, starting with comments about her appearance,.....or if you have children, how good she is with them. Offering to help her fix things around the house or apartment where she is staying.....or if she is still at home with you, helping with household chores. And do these things consistently and happily to show her the new you. Ultimately, you want to become the man that any woman would have to be a fool to leave.

Hope this helps! And check out sandi2's thread.

Good luck!

GAG

[undrdg]

HEy GAG
Thank you for the tips. I am not a fixer guy never have been. I guess i could start now but i think she would think i am trying to hard.

What I am looking for is romantic ideas that would make any woman open her eyes and take notice.

From a male perspective, I could offer you this little tid bit of info: i absolutely love it when my wife goes out of her way to do something for me that i know she normally wouldn't do. For example, get him that techno gadget he wants but doesn't want to buy because its either too expensive or sold out. Something like that.

Always always have his back. Men and loyalty are very important.
Watch the Godfather. Everything you need to know about men is in that movie. PS its a trilogy.

[goodattitudegirl]

undrdg,

I REALLY appreciate your masculine perspective! It really helps. Your statement about loyalty may explain why my H is so loyal to his BMF even though it seems that his BMF is a taker and not much of a giver in their long-term friendship.

Re: techno gadgets, my H LOVES these! I was always at a loss to know about which gadgets were the good ones to get for him. In the past I looked at Men's Health magazine for ideas, but was always pretty insecure about finding something he would really groove on.

With respect to your question about romantic ideas......I know it may be hard to believe, but having a man help around the house IS romantic to a woman, but I think you are looking at romantic type ideas. Here are a few:
--cooking dinner for your W. It's even better if you can be working on it and surprise her with a wonderfully aromatic house when she gets home. This gives you the opportunity to ML to your food while eating together, licking fingers, making appreciative sounds....you get the idea. If your W is receptive you could even feed her from your spoon?
--candles lit everywhere with the lights low. Cinnamon is supposed to be a scent that that has aphrodisiac qualities for both men and women.
--offer to give her a pedicure if you have that type of relationship now. Every woman LOVES pedicures, and its an opportunity to massage her feet (very sensitive) and legs
--back rub, shoulder rub, scalp massage

Sorry, I didn't have a chance to check your sitch so I'm not quite certain where you are with her right now. These things may be too advanced for her right now. If you are not quite at this point you can try:

--flowers, flowers, flowers.....EVERY woman loves flowers
--special shower gel or bath oil
--calling before coming home to ask if there is anything she needs you to pick up for dinner or for the home.

I hope that some of this helps. Maybe there is a kernal of an idea here that you can tailor to your W's likes.

GAG

[goodattitudegirl]

Hey Everyone,

With my Dday approaching in about 3 1/2 weeks my DB coach suggested that I give H a letter to ask him to consider postponing or canceling the final D for now. I have DB'ed my heart out the past 12 months and I see this as one more step in that process. I would really appreciate feedback from people as I work toward a final version. I'm chatting with my coach this weekend to finalize the letter. Thanks folks! Letter is below:


H,

I have really appreciated that we’ve been able to reconnect and establish a new facet of our relationship. We’ve worked through a lot of challenging feelings and come out the other side with a new type of relationship that is perhaps richer for its genuine caring in spite of the difficult time we’ve been through and the weaknesses we each have.

I’ve got to be honest with you that I had hoped we would be able to find our way back to being a couple again. I want you to know that I still care very much about you. I understand what prompted you to initiate our separation and I am very sorry for the pain that I caused you. If I could take back the things I did that contributed to this situation I would, but then perhaps we would have both missed this opportunity to grow. I have found our separation to be healthy and personally enlightening. I am now making better choices in my work, for my health, and enjoying life much more!

You are probably aware that the date of our divorce is approaching. I just want you to know that it is still my desire to see where our new relationship might lead us before we do something so official and final. I wonder if you would consider canceling this imminent deadline. We were incredibly happy not that long ago. In spite of the events of the past year I still care deeply for you and I can tell that you continue to have special feelings for me. We made many wonderful memories together! I sincerely think that with the knowledge we have both gained from the past year we have a real opportunity to see whether our rekindled friendship has the potential to lead to a new relationship that is even happier, wiser, and more mutually rewarding than before. I would assume the financial responsibility of refiling if in the future you still consider divorce to be the best course of action.

Please think about this. If this is something that you do not want to consider, I will be moving forward with my life. This will mean moving forward with new relationships with the intent of finding someone with whom to share the rest of my life. I have not done that before now because I wanted to give my best effort to our marriage.

I have no regrets about any of what has transpired between us as I believe these things were necessary to help us break free from old, self-defeating behaviors and beliefs. I am a much better person because of what I have learned from “us”. I now know that I have a much deeper capacity for love and forgiveness than I ever imagined. I am at peace and I wish us both well.

Always,

GAG

[givingitmyall]

H,

I have really appreciated that we’ve been able to reconnect and establish a new facet of our relationship. We’ve worked through a lot of challenging feelings and come out the other side with a new type of relationship that is perhaps richer for its genuine caring in spite of the difficult time we’ve been through and the weaknesses we each have.

I’ve got to be honest with you that I had hoped we would be able to find our way back to being a couple again. I want you to know that I still care very much about you. I understand what prompted you to initiate our separation and I am very sorry for the pain that I caused you. If I could take back the things I did that contributed to this situation I would, but then perhaps we would have both missed this opportunity to grow. I have found our separation to be healthy and personally enlightening. I am now making better choices in my work, for my health, and enjoying life much more! I am making better choices in my work and for my health. And, I am enjoying my life much more.

You are probably aware that the date of our divorce is approaching. I just want you to know that it is still my desire to see where our new relationship might lead us before we do something so official and final. I wonder if you would consider canceling postponing (?) this imminent deadline. We were incredibly happy not that long ago. In spite of the events of the past year I still care deeply for you and I can tell that you continue to have special feelings for me. We made many wonderful memories together! I sincerely think that with the knowledge we have both gained from the past year we have a real opportunity to see whether our rekindled friendship has the potential to lead to a new relationship that is even happier, wiser, and more mutually rewarding than before. I would assume the financial responsibility of refiling if in the future you still consider divorce to be the best course of action. If you still want a divorce, I will not stand in your way. But, at this point, we have not done everything we can to make sure we do not close the door on our marriage prematurely.

Please think about this. If this is something that you do not want to consider, I will be moving move forward with my life. This will mean moving forward with new relationships with the intent of finding someone with whom to share the rest of my life. I have not done that before now because I wanted to give my best effort to our marriage.

I have no regrets about any of what has transpired between us as I believe these things were necessary to help us break free from old, self-defeating behaviors and beliefs. I am a much better person because of what I have learned from “us”. I now know that I have a much deeper capacity for love and forgiveness than I ever imagined. I am at peace and I wish us both well.

Always,

GAG

GAG,

this is what I saw. The letter seems like a good one. I only had a few, small revisions.

[ClingingToHope]

Good luck. It's a very nice letter. Only send it if you are 100 percent prepared for one final, cruel rejection. Otherwise, it could knock you back to square one emotionally.

[mishka422]

GAG,

Just wondering. What is the purpose in this paragraph?

If this is something that you do not want to consider, I will be moving forward with my life. This will mean moving forward with new relationships with the intent of finding someone with whom to share the rest of my life. I have not done that before now because I wanted to give my best effort to our marriage.

Is it necessary to tell him that? Do you think he wouldn't assume that or are you trying to drive home a point that he will lose you for good?

[AliSuddenly]

Hey GAG,
Thanks for your kind comments, that really means alot to me..so I will try and answer your questions!

I am intrigued by the approach you used: " I always talked about bf in a vague way, with a big smile as though he was still in my life and all was cool". Did you do this even when you knew there was an OW?

What I did was.. I was very canny. I acted as though I was fully in the loop and we were still very close. Of course we were from Feb 08 - early August 08 and often in daily contact. We spoke about neutral things, music, films and..friends and family, NEVER us or our R (wierd, it was really wierd at the time after knowing him 13 years!). It got harder after that, as he stopped all contact when he started dating ow, but gradually the emails returned. He would tell me his brother had done x, or a mutual bachelor friend was now getting M, or his Mum was going on holiday etc.. so from these brief snippets, if I ever saw his Mum/SIL/BMF and W for lunch or afternoon tea, we would chat and they might say.. hey so and so is getting M and I would go.. YES! I heard that, wow, me and *bf* couldnt believe it, he told me how he met her... etc. Even if I literally only knew the barest details, I would act like I was in the know, I was still part of that world, that me and bf still talked as couples talk and therefore painting an image that we were still very much in each others lives.

Ditto, if they asked me about college say, I might drop in.. *bf* helped me wire up my sculpture.. etc. To make them feel he was ok with me. And yes, I continued to do this AFTER he started dating Helen and I knew about it (and I assume they knew I knew, but noone mentioned her to me, perhaps because they felt awkward, or were worried that they might be telling me something I didnt know!) In fact, his BMF W, who I was very close to told me after she didnt know if I knew as she thought I would be more upset so she didnt dare tell me (she always thought he had had a breakdown and WOULD come back to me once he got past it).

I also was canny enough to not do the above TOO much, I didnt want anyone to see me as some kind of nut, or bunny boiler. So I did it subtley. The effect was that people could see we were still close, that perhaps it was madness we were apart and also, they would tell him they had seen me and HOW GOOD I LOOKED. I heard that afterwards. I always made a special effort to look great whenever I saw anyone connected with him, smile a lot, be super positive, NEVER whinge or whine about him or what he had done. I had a few funny anecdotes of what I had been up to lately to make my life seem fun and going well (it was in bits, but not completely!) and I never ever mentioned other men. If anyone asked me, as his BMF once did.. I just flatly stated, oh no, I'm just concentrating on college nowadays, that takes up all my time...

The other important thing is, I was honest with a few people taht I felt it served to be.. like his BMF where we live now and his oldest BMF W.. these people were well aware that I was trying to win him back and they were trying to help. I didnt act as if with them, but I was still careful what I said, for example, I didnt tell them I still cried all the time, like a year after he had left me - I didnt want anything to get back to him that would compound his GUILT. As Jody told me too, guilt is the LBS's enemy! They both talked to him at times and tried to get him to unravel his thinking/feelings. You will have read this on my thread. They were on my side, but more to the point, on OUR side and the R. They were a HUGE help. I cant tell you how grateful I am to them. I bought BMF W a bottle of bubbly when we got back together to thank her for her invaluable help.

My H has been decreasing communication for the last 1-2 weeks.. Do you think that I should initiate communication?

This is a tricky one. If he isnt, he isnt for a reason. You need to respect that and give him what he wants - space. Its natural to worry yourself sick when contact patterns change, I certainly did as you saw from my thread! My Mum was good to advise me.. leave him be, wait.. be patient. What I did was, when contact stretched out, I would use the tinniest excuse to contact him, but did so then in a VERY light, neutral, chatty way so as not to spook him. I might keep it short, but friendly and ALWAYS tried to include some jokey remark or wittiscism. Looking back, it didnt matter if he didnt contact me for a day, week or month at times.. the end result was the same. He gradually came back around to remembering what he loved and wanted once the cloud of depression began to lift.

Jody and I planned the following for my lunch with SIL, knowing that everything I say will be communicated back to H:
1) Tell SIL that I expect that H has probably dated since the separation began. This is something that I understand occurs when people are separated. This will help to remove this as a barrier to H feeling too guilty about his dating OW to consider dating me again.
2)Forgiveness: I have found the separation to be halthy and personally enlightening. When I realized I was holding resentment to H, I took steps to release that. That has been my process for forgiving H for leaving me AND forgiving myself for doing the things that contributed to pushing us apart.

I wouldnt say too much.. my approach was always (as above).. to say very little.. START a conversation off, then pause, or trail off, or be vague and you find the other person starts talking and then .. YOU LISTEN. I used to say "..*bf* seemed a bit down the last time I saw him...and then.. they cant help it, its like they want an opening to talk to you (depends how close you are). So I dont thikn its so necessary to make these grand statements as above. You could mention, you are aware he may well be dating, that would be a typical scenario for a man, who has S from his W and you understand that.. and you could mention you have worked hard on it and you DO forgive him and are even grateful as it snapped you out of some bad behaviours and are much happier now.. but thats all, just keep it brief. You want them to talk to you. They will see with their own eyes the state you are in and if you are carrying yourself in a positive, upbeat way, that will possibly get reported back to H.

Sorry for the long post! Lastly, trust your intuition. I had some pretty mean comments on my thread at times, one lady even referred to me on her own thread as "crazy" and didnt I realise he was never going to come back? He was done with me. Well, I knew that was BS. I knew he still loved me, I was just getting disheartened because 18 months is a long time to wait to see if you were right!

[AliSuddenly]

I have really appreciated that we’ve been able to reconnect and establish a new facet of our relationship. We’ve worked through a lot of challenging feelings and seem to have developed a new relationship lately full of come out the other side with a new type of relationship that is perhaps richer for its genuine caring in spite of the difficult time we’ve been through and the weaknesses we each have.

I’ve got to be honest with you that I had hoped we would be able to find our way back to being a couple again. I want you to know that I still care very much about you. I understand what prompted you to initiate our separation and I am very sorry for the pain that I caused you. If I could take back the things I did that contributed to this situation I would, but then perhaps we would have both missed this opportunity to grow. I have found our separation to be healthy and personally enlightening and I have been making better choices as a result and enjoy life more now. I am now making better choices in my work, for my health, and enjoying life much more!

You are probably aware that the date of our divorce is approaching. I just want you to know that it is still my desire to see where our new relationship might lead us before we do something so official and final. I wonder if you would consider canceling this imminent deadline. We were incredibly happy not that long ago.(is that going to heap guilt on him?) In spite of the events of the past year(ditto, do you need to even say that? just say...)I still care deeply for you and I can tell that you continue to have special feelings for me (my Counsellor used to say, you cant tell other people what they are feeling?). We made many wonderful memories together! I sincerely think that with the knowledge we have both gained from the past year we have a real opportunity to see whether our rekindled friendship has the potential to lead to a new relationship that is even happier, wiser, and more mutually rewarding than before. I would assume the financial responsibility of refiling if in the future you still consider divorce to be the best course of action.Sounds a bit like you are trying to take control? Did Jody put this bit in? How about saying, After everything we have learnt this past year, I would love us to have the opportunity to see if cant work on our rekindled friendship to see if we could try again, but with an improved relationship than before.

Please think about this. If this is something that you do not want to consider, I want you to know I am still your friend for life (something like that instead, less acting like you'll be fine?)will be moving forward with my life. This will mean moving forward with new relationships with the intent of finding someone with whom to share the rest of my life. I have not done that before now because I wanted to give my best effort to our marriage.

I have no regrets about any of what has transpired between us(again, did Jody suggest that? Is that how you REALLY feel??? I had huge regrets! I wouldnt say this, it sounds manipulative? How about, I am grateful to what has happened... )as I believe these things were necessary to help us break free from old, self-defeating behaviors and beliefs. I am a much better person because of what I have learned from “us”.I now know that I have a much deeper capacity for love and forgiveness than I ever imagined. I am at peace and I wish us both well.

Always,

GAG

..I hope that helps, but hey, I'm British, so we tend to be less direct! xxx

[goodattitudegirl]

WOW!!!!!!! Thank you EVERYONE for your time, thoughtful feedback, and wonderful edits!!!!!!!! Every bit of feedback you have provided with your fresh eyes is very sincerely appreciated. I just finished a long day at work and then went to visit MIL in her new senior apartment with my little princess (kitty cat) so I will not have a chance to post in detail until tomorrow. Ali, you have given me much food for thought. I REALLY appreciate your perspective and pointers. REALLY! I will do my best to make you proud and try not to come off as a "bunny boiler". I chuckled when I read that, ala "Fatal Attraction" :-) ......but that descriptor will probably help to keep me on good behavior when I meet with one of H's friends tomorrow and his sister on saturday.

Stay tuned for a more complete thank you tomorrow.

GAG