Thanks so much for the accolades on the poem, Beth and marriedCrazy! I really appreciate it. I still have a little ways more to go before submitting for publishing, but I'm working on it.
As far as updates go, my meeting with my husband this morning was interesting. I really fell off the wagon in terms of DB principles, but I'm having a mixed reaction. I'm not sure how things are panning out right now. The confusion is overwhelming.
He came over at 8:00 as planned. I'd made the muffins and cleaned the house and put up the Christmas tree as per my goals. I looked great, wore my feminine shirt, and was smelling good.
All the ducks were in a row.
The problem is, I was having big doubts about my strategy. A good friend of ours came over last night to help me with the tree and have dinner. He has a background in psychology and theology, and he knows us really well. We talked for a really long time. I told him the situation in detail, and he had a different take on the situation than my coach.
He knows my H, and he said that my H has very low self-esteem right now. He said the signs were there for some time, but that he hadn't pieced things together until everything happened. My H is very quiet and reserved, so everything my friend was noticing was merely observation, etc. He said that my H doesn't feel that he can bring any value to the marriage, and so he can't stand the weight of that and is trying to cut ties. He feels that the OW is a means to that end - a way to break things enough so that he can run and set me free. He said that my H obviously still loves me - everyone who knows me tells me that, and I feel it as well - but that he feels unable to meet my needs. He also feels that my H is crying out for me to need him.
Thus, my friend had some concerns with the "letting the rope go" tactic. He felt that it could be counterproductive, and that it was making it easier for him to detach (which is what my H is telling me - "Let me go... You're making it too hard for me... I can't be with you... It's too hard... Stop telling me I'm a good man; you're just making it harder... You deserve better."). He felt that my H was deliberately trying to sabotage my attempts to give him love because he doesn't feel like he can live up to it.
In any case, he said that it would take time - and that I had to give it time - but that I also had to be clear that I was still fighting for our marriage and for him. He seemed to feel that my detachment would actually be a more of the same tactic as I dealt with our original conversations with extreme detachment. It made sense, considering that I've felt from the beginning that my H was looking for a reaction from me when we first sat down to discuss our marriage. I was the one who suggested the separation, to give him time to think. I was the one who wouldn't tell him I loved him when he was leaving that first time. H was the one coming to me, kissing me and telling me that he loved me, that it would be for a short time, that we'd be ok.
I never reciprocated that until after the final bomb. So yes, I've been pursuing, but only since the final bomb. For the duration of the relationship - all 11 years - I've never reciprocated love on an equal level.
Needless to say, I was confused beyond belief. When I looked back over the situation, I could almost see signs that pursuing was working. Sure, he kept telling me it was too hard or that I had to respect his need to let go, but he also was responding to me - especially when we interacted more as friends. He was frustrated that I "was making him doubt himself" for a minute or sos that night he came over and I told him about the changes in me.
I really had no clue what to do, so when H arrived this morning, I was bubbly and cheery and otherwise was flying by the seat of my pants. We talked and laughed. We had coffee and smoked.
Then he brought up the finances again. He's running, trying to rush and figure out how to handle things, asking what I wanted to do. H has always been like this. He runs from towards the greener grass if he's having a difficult time. He rushes and then regrets it. For my part, I told him I needed more time to sort things out. I told him that I needed to think about how to handle things, and I asked his opinion many, MANY times. He asked for a timeframe for the D; he wants us to go see a lawyer together and split the fees rather than have me file and bear the bulk of the cost as I'd originally proposed. He had lots of ideas to try and save my credit, and he admitted that he'd paid my car payment this month to help me out. I wouldn't have given him a January timeframe, but he was worried that I would draw things out. He's afraid that I'm going to get angry and try to trample him (not in his words, but that was the basic feeling) - which would be much more in line with the woman he knows.
And then we ended up talking about the R. I honest to God cannot remember who brought it up. It might have been me, although I know that it was organic to the discussion about finances, becaus ethe discussion about finances was all about him apologizing to me. He kept saying that I'll find someone better, someone who makes more money than his salary. He said he doesn't know what he's going to do, but that he's trying to find himself. He has all of these crazy, super-dangerous ideas to go overseas. Or maybe he'll stay here. Or maybe he'll move to Tennessee.
In truth, he has no idea what he's going to do. I matched his tone. I validated. I told him he'd be good at anything, and I didn't give advice. I tried to demonstrate that I was confused as well.
The R talk eventually came around to me telling him that I'm angry at myself - not him - for having taken so long to wake up to what I was doing. I apologized for not appreciating him enough, for taking him for granted. I admitted that I'd been on autopilot. I told him that he was a good man - the best man I knew - and that I was sad that we couldn't make things work because we complete eachother in many ways. I told him that I definitely felt ready for settling down, for a family, and that I was unsure of going to grad school right now because I felt I was in a different season.
I told him that I understood why he felt that he had to be free, that he had to answer unanswered questions and tie up unfinished business. I admitted that I needed to do the same, and that this wake-up call had solidified things for me abotu what my priorities truly are.
I could tell it was hard for him to listen to, and he was carrying a ton of guilt.
At some point, God only knows how it came up, he told me that he would always love me. He told me that he did love me, and that I would always be my best friends. He said he was happy that he we were being so honest, that we could talk and still be friends. He told me that it was unbearably hard to be around me, and that as much as he wanted to f*** me, he couldn't and he knew it would be the wrong thing. He didn't want to lead me on or make things worse for me.
Long story short, we ended up having sex. It was totally my decision, and I was very la-la-la about it. He was the one having the huge moral dilemma. He kept saying that this can't change things. This doesn't change things. I agreed and said that I knew and understood. I played the "I jsut want to f***" card because I did.
Not saying I didn't have ulterior motives, and despite the fact that I knew I shouldn't have, I wanted to. I felt in control of the situation (yes, I know that sounds insane).
As we were in the heat of the moment, he said that even as friends he wanted to keep f***ing me. About two minutes later, he actually stopped and started apologizing. Started saying he didn't want me to misinterpret things, that we shouldn't have had sex.
Afterwards, we talked for awhile and then went to the bank. I was nonchalant. I thanked him for being so thoughtful as to let me cash this rebate check to pay the mortgage. I actually made it a point to thank him for everything he did while here, and he seemed to appreciate that.
When we got home from the bank, we continued to talk. We gossiped and laughed, and then at one point he told me that he's "seeing someone". I told him I knew, and that I understood. He seemed very guilty and had trouble looking me in the eye. I was completely breezy, laughing and smiling and validating. He told me he name. She is 21 and a waitress. He said it's nothing serious, and that it bothered him that he'd broken his vows. He said that at least he'd told me, though, and when I asked if he'd "broken his vows" before the big bomb, he said no. He'd only been talking.
I told him I knew she was nothing like me, and he laughed and said, "No, she's not. No one is like you."
He said that any woman that's ever in his life is going to know that we're best friends and just have to deal with it. I smiled and validated.
I asked if he was happy and he said yes. I told him that I was glad he was happy. I tried to talk more about the A on a friend level, but he said it was too early and he felt too bad. He said he'd tell me one day.
I told him about an old flame that had emailed me recently to go for drinks, and he got visibly disturbed. He couldn't take it, and it bothered him pretty obviously. He then said that it wasn't fair for him to be upset, and that he just couldn't talk about it. Later, he then said that it's ok. I shoudl go for drinks, and that he's happy that we can be so honest and cool with eachother.
As time drew on, I realized that when he started to get really conflicted, he would try to get firm again that he just had to walk his own path. I validated.
I then realized that I'd given him alot to think about and that then i needed to raise the stakes. I told him that I wanted to be friends, and that I was having fun with him, but that I wasn't sure it would work in the long run. He said he understood, that it was so hard. I told him I wasn't sure, but that time would tell. I talked about my plans for the future and about possibly starting a afamily soon if it was in the cards.
He said he would miss the house, and me, and our dog. He seemed to have a hard time leaving.
When he got up to leave, I went to shake his hand. He protested, and hugged me and kissed my forehead. He hugged me and told me that I was a good woman and would find happiness. I told him he was a good man. He said I deserved better, and I said we'd have to agree to disagree.
I asked for another two hugs, and I told him goodbye. I tried to make it sound final. He tapped me on the arm and said, "Goodbye, Babe."
He left. I hid and watched him leave froma side widnow he couldn't see. He stayed half pulled out of the driveway for several minutes.
I was confident and warm and understading. I was also trying to appear like I was letting go a little. I think it came across, but who knows.
He was running the whole time. I could see it in him. He's scared and conflicted, at least I think.
I need some input. My friend thinks I did the right thing. That I gave him alot too think about and that now I have to put it in God's hands.
I'm back again. I just got done with some major praying with my friend. I feel hopeful, and I feel like I'm beginning to trust in God that this is what He wants and can provide, although I still have those doubtful voices whispering in my ear.
I know what I saw in my H when he was here.
He is confused. He is trying to force this change out of fear, and he's running. When things get difficult, he has a tendency to run. He is trying to escape from the adulthood we've built and recreate himself. I don't think it's a coincidence that the OW is 21. He even said she's immature, and I think she makes him feel both young and also in control. It's difficult to be on equal footing with someone, to be challenged, especially when you feel down on yourself.
He said he feels older than his years. The funny thing is, so do I.
I have to say that I honestly feel we will come together. I have faith in that. Perhaps this is not the season, but I have faith that there will be a season. I'd prefer not to divorce, but no one can make me believe we are done regardless of what the legal papers say.
The moment I saw my H, I knew I would marry him. I knew he was my other half. I will not give up on that.
My biggest concern now is how to play the next step. I'm trying to figure out whether I should let go or whether I should remain a constant. Am I better of keeping my place firm in his head, being a friend and staying in contact? Or should I go dark?
I feel like every time I see him or talk to him, he gets more confused but also I feel him coming back in tiny, subatomic measurements. I'm afraid that if I detach, I will be doing more of the same. Will he miss me more if i keep away, or if I am ever-present?
I can be there as a friend, as something he can no longer truly have, as a temptation and a reminder.
Or I can back off and force him to feel my loss and hope that he doesn't swallow his feelings, that I don't make it easier for him.
I'm not sure. Are there any men on here that want to offer some insight?
I know he cake-ate by sleeping with me today. I also know that he was trying to convince himself that it didn't change anything as much as he was trying to convince me.
Keep thinking, and being able to post here is a blessing.
I think the biggest truth is this: I never was truly giving with my H. I never really offerred unconditional support. I never gave completely of myself without expectation.
Now to figure out how to apply that.....
It will come. I have faith in that. The universe unfolds as it should. The starlight overhead is billions of years old and yet still shining, here for this night. For all of us.
I'm wearing my wedding ring and his wedding ring now. I am carrying us inside my heart, and I will do so until he is strong enough to carry himself again.
I feel peaceful. I feel strong. I feel like I love myself, and I am loved - by so many. I heard a pastor say that true forgiveness is no longer holding someone else accountable for your pain because of their actions. I am there. I have been there since almost the moment of revelation.
I believe it is a gift.
I want to give to everyone. I want to give to myself. I want to kiss the stars and thank God for placing them in the sky.
I am free, and I am brimming with love. My love feels boundless. And God - God is here with us. He is smaller than any atom and larger than the universe. God is love, and love is as tiny as a grain of sand and as large as the sky.
I am thankful for today. I am thankful for everything - the pain, the suffering, the uncertainty. Everything is beautiful, and every breath is a gift.
Today is a good day, and every moment is worth it.
Maybe I backslid, maybe I didn't. Life is right in any case.
~Nas, off to clean up, fix her make-up, pray a little, and head out for Girl's Night!
Happy Monday, everyone! I hope that you are all enjoying a beautiful morning and that you have a wonderful day.
It's been a wonderful weekend all-in-all, and I'm prepping myself for a great week. To give you all a short update (if that's even possible for me), I was born again this weekend. Shortly after I typed my last post on Saturday, God lifted away the remainder of my pain. I honestly know that if you're reading this and do not believe in such things/have not experienced it, I probably sound a little crazy. I can honestly say that I am so happy and light and filled with joy that it shocks even me from time to time. I know that all of this happened for a reason. God has changed me, and He is working in me to make me into a new wife and to resurrect our marriage as something far better than it ever could have been. I have faith that He is working in my H as well.
I know that the road I am travelling is long and filled with many obstacles. But I am ready to face them. Life is good, and I have no complaints.
I've asked that God take away my H's pain and give it to me, but I know that my H has to face his own demons. I am praying for him and enjoying life in the meantime. I'm wearing both of our wedding rings now because I know that at this time in our life it is my job to carry the marriage for the both of us, to be the heart for once and wait for him to be the head. He has been the heart for too long, has carried everything for much longer than I.
In any case, here is how my interaction with H went on Sunday. Coincidentally, yesterday was the anniversary of the beginning of our R 11 years ago.
I texted him after church saying: ---"God loves you and so do I. Peace be with you. Happy Pearl Harbor Day. Life is beautiful, my friend."
He did not respond. Later that night, H texted me the following: ---"Hey ____ [my pet name], how was church with ____ [mutual friend]? Also what is my username and password on the electric company website? Wanted to look at my account."
I did not respond right away. I took the time to pray and ask God to guide me. After 6 minutes, he texted again: ---"U there Tom Cruise?"
That comment comes from a convo we had on Saturday where I told him that an old coworker of mine who looks like Tom Cruise emailed asking me to go out for drinks. He'd flipped at first, but then he eventually said I should go have drinks and that it wasn't fair of him to be upset about it.
I called him to tell him the password, etc. Told him church was great. He seemed surprised. I didn't go into details about being saved, etc. I was bubbly and happy (really and truly). I asked if he'd gone to Mass, and he said no, he'd gone to look at places to rent instead. He looked at some trailers that were "dumps" but found one house for rent for $600 a month that came with appliances and had hardwood floors. He seemed fairly excited about it, and the guy renting it out is friends with a coworker of his so he is optimistic. He doesn't think he can get moved in for another two weeks or so, but he's anxious to do it. Said we'd probably need to call the electic company together to work out how to transfer the account to me. I didn't offer any advice on how to do it - just validated and agreed. I ended the phone call first, saying I had to get going to a friend's house. He seemed surprised and a little disappointed but didn't protest.
I got the distinct feeling that he is running. He's turning away from family and friends (know this for a fact). He's avoiding going to Mass. He's talking about joining some crazy motorcycle gang (not seriously) and about going overseas to do some crazy security work in Africa. In the same breath, he says he might stay here. Says he doesn't want to start over again in some ways.
I'm afraid that he'll make rash decisions and get a house, rush filing, etc instead of thinking things through. I'm asking God for guidance and to remove that fear. I know in the end that even if we do divorce on paper that doens't mean we're done. I'd just rather not go there.
I'm not sure how to play this thing. I'm asking God for guidance and I'm waiting for that guidance.
I know H still loves me. It's blatantly obvious. I think he's struggling with pride and guilt and greed and fear right now.
It's funny that he wanted to start a family and find his faith again when he first dropped the bomb. Now, he's running from those exact things.
Any male perspectives out there?
Take care, all, and may God bless you and keep you, ~Nas
Was just skimming through your posts. I love your attitude. It's one I try to hold on to everyday. I have had the same conversations with my H. You are a little further along though. I have told H that if/when we separate it will be his decision and that we would have to put some distance between us friendship wise. I told him I would need space to let him go. No casual lunches to just hang out, no going to the store together etc. I did tell him that we can get together for and with the kids.
This scared the life out of him. H honestly thought we could remain best friends if our marriage ended. He keeps telling me I am and have been his biggest supporter, have encouraged him in ways no one has ever done (his family was pretty much hands off while he was growing up. His parents are divorced and both remarried)
I think you are going about your sitch in a positive manner that will come around and reward you in the end. I am a total believer in Karma...
Nasmat, Congratulations! Congratulations on your decision this weekend. That is the best news I have heard in a while.
Thank you for responding to my post. I came over to check out your story. (Wow, you are quite the writer).
Male perspective: your H is confused and running from the very things he holds (deeply) near and dear. My guess is that he is testing leaving those things in an attempt to prove to himself that he can leave something else in his life that he loves dearly (you).
Hi, justwaitn! Thanks so much for the support. I know how hard it is to hang onto a PMA, and I'm frankly surprised and delighted by the turn things have taken for me. I'll pray for you, hun, and hope for nothing but the best for you.
Detaching and the whole distant friendship thing is terribly difficult. I still struggle with my sitch, trying to figure out the right blend of caring and detachment. It's tough considering the history I have with my H, so I just keep asking God for guidance and trying my best to listen to for His word in my heart instead of in my head.
I think losing our friendship scares my H as well. This weekend, I could see that he was struggling. Some part of him is probably hoping that he can have his best friend, have our sexual relationship, and still have that independent life where he finds himself - which I think is more about running from something than finding anything. I don't regret ML with my H this weekend. I think it made him think more and made him feel conflicted - not to mention I enjoyed it, and I know that it strengthened the connection. Now to not do that again.....
Losing that friendship connection is terrifying. When H asked for space from me, I panicked. Now that I'm giving a little more space, he's not liking it. Funny how these things work.
Thanks for your support, and I hope for nothing but the best for you and your H.
Hey, FamMan! Thank you so much for coming by and offering support and congratulations. It means so much. God is with us, and we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us (the old me and all of my real-life freinds reading this probably just passed out reading that).
I'm glad that you like my writing! It means a lot, and has been a life-long passion. I'm excited to get back to writing and work towards publishing in the future.
Thanks SO much for the male perspective. I tend to have a really difficult time trying to get into a male mindset. Your assessment totally makes sense, and I think you're completely right about him running and testing the his ability to leave. Do you think he's doing it because I pushed himaway for so long? Do you think maybe it's a young MLC?
I'm still a little afraid that all of those enemies - pride, guilt, fear, insecurity etc - are blinding him. I want so badly to let him no that there is no reason to be guilty, and that I am finally here for him.
All I can do is keep faith with God and trust that he will work in my H. I will take any pain, and I am resolving to wait as long as I need to.
I'll keep checking in on you, FamMan. May God bless you and keep you.
The OW is what this is about. He is using this time to see how it is going to work with her. He will deny how serious it is. Men lie through their teeth while having affairs. We all say "we need space and need to find ourselves"... textbook
I still have a little ways more to go before submitting for publishing, but I'm working on it.