I only have a sec before I have to run to church, but wanted to say hello. I'm sorry you've got a big conflict avoider too! They are tough to figure out.
I've been thinking about my H's history, and he has a strong one of projecting his problems onto the female closest to him, then "taking a stand" and withdrawing emotionally from her. His mother is the primary one, and she is the iciest, most messed up person I've ever met. I'm worried, from watching his "stand" with her (um, 25 years and going strong . . .), that he'll never soften, as this is some sort of inner spot he is protecting. He feels that something has been broached, and he MUST protect it.
Any effort at trying to "get" him to do *anything* has been met with extreme and complete resistance. He speaks to his friends of feeling so much freedom now. I think the "cage" he was in was created mostly in his own mind. (I think H is also reacting to the responsibilities of having a family and his many financial/business troubles.) He is the one who decided that avoiding conflict, giving in, etc. was a good thing to do for the relationship. I was on the other side saying, "Please tell me what *you'd* like to do, what *you* think, etc." He shut himself down, thinking that would please me somehow, when it was the farthest thing from the truth. He finally couldn't do that to himself anymore (I don't blame him!), and had to get rid of me in order to allow himself to feel some control and freedom in his life.
The only solution I'm thinking of now for this aspect is to completely back away from him. He does need, regardless of me, to get in touch with his own feelings, needs, desires in life. If he ever returns to our M, he will need to learn how to nurture and listen to those desires of his own. I will always have to be careful that I don't contribute to the problem by squelching him.
I can only work on my part of the situation. I know I have to tone way down. I was in a situation where I would talk about a problem, get nowhere with him, get more dramatic, get nowhere, get more dramatic, etc. I wish I'd realized it wasn't working back then, pulled a 180 on the situation, and maybe he would have come out of his shell to find me. So now I need to somehow show this to him, um, in the middle of a huge court battle over supervised/unsupervised visitation of our dd due to concerns over his mental health.
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
Most of our MC has been around this issue. No, I don't think that conflict and anger are signs of a failing relationship, but until now, my H definately thought conflict/anger = bad relationship & love stinks.
He's a big conflict avoider, whereas I am more of a talk things through and compromise sort of person. I learned to become more of a conflict avoider with H because: 1. He thought conflict/anger = bad relationship & love stinks and I didn't want him to walk out. 2. If I got angry with him or complained about anything, he considered it a personal attack and wondered why I would stay with him if some of his behavior made me very unhappy. He would often say I "would be better off with someone else". 3. When my frustration/anger level rose to the boiling point, and I couldn't hold back any longer, I would try to stay calm when expressing myself, but H would either: a. Say we should split up because conflict/anger = bad relationship & love stinks, or b. Begin to do a spaz dance of rage & storm away. 4. Even though I knew that conflict and anger were normal in a relationship and that we needed to work together to compromise, H didn't know that. When I initiated a conflict or showed anger, his reactions were so extreme that I became afraid to have any conflict. 5. We both ended up storing up resentments and not communicating about what was bothering us. We withdrew more and more from each other, both feeling unloved and taken for granted. Hurt and silent anger set in on a daily basis and made room for a 3rd person to come between us.
When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
Well, after the bomb, there was a great deal of conflict and anger. I did a lot of raging & we both said a lot of things we both wish we hadn't. The thing that kept us together through that was that when one was being very negative and raging, the other would remind of all the things to be hopeful and grateful about. We kept pulling each other back from the brink of ending things. We now know that we can be furious with each other and still survive it.
MC and IC are helping H realize that he has some very unrealistic ideas what a good relationship is, and has some very dysfunctional methods of dealing with conflict and anger. He is learning that I can love him and still be angry, I can like and accept him, but still ask that he change some behavior that I feel is destructive to our R. He is learning that he can safely do the same with me.
I am learning how to temper my way of bringing up problems in a way that won't be misconstrued as personal critisism or general dissatisfaction with our R.
We have both identified the weapons that we have been using against each other, including holding resentments & pouting, silent treatment & withholding affection, controlling behavior, self-righteousness, using temper to intimidate (H only) and the (implied) threat of abandonment. We have been working on laying all of those weapons down, especially the weapons of mass destruction.
We are going back to kindergarten with MC to work through examples of how to resolve conflict and compromise.
Compromise and respect is key here, because in all M's, there are going to be issues that never get resolved, but should be approached in a way to minimize the negative impact to both people.
Hopeful_One: Your comments about your H's history, taking a "stand", avoiding conflict, shutting down emotionally & feeling like he needed some control and freedom in his life....
Oh boy, big "ditto" on that with my H. We have now both seen a strong corrolation between H's relationship with his mother and the way he has behaved while in MLC. When he was 14-15, his mom told him to move out if he couldn't live by the rules. He chose to move out. Later, in H's early 20's, he had a falling out with his mom and "took a stand" to shut her out of his life. He had no contact with her and then felt terribly guilty when she died without them having reconciled.
All of the stuff that he had unresolved with his parents during his teen/early adult years came out full-force during MLC. I even noticed a strange pattern where he would do very inappropriate things, then almost dare me to put limits on his behavior. If I did put limits on his behavior or even asked him to do anything, he'd react like he was a rebellious teenager who would rather move out than "live by the rules".
I was baffled and confused by the way he was acting like more of a rebellious teenager than our actual teen-aged boys! Nearly everything I said and did was interpreted as being a "controlling mommy". I'm very glad that I didn't do a knee-jerk reaction by playing the part of the controlling mommy, but kept trying to relate to him as a grown man having an MLC.
Quote: How SURE are you about things that are going to happen?
Honestly im not sure at all right now it seems evenly positive and negative.one one hand she seems to be opening ,then as soon as i turn around "slam" shut out again
Quote: How much do you rely on the past, and the present, to predict the future? Especially about the "negative" things
Im trying not to rely on the past at all. if i did there would be no hope for marriage.I dont want the same old relationship. i think it can and will be better given a chance
Quote: How would you see the situation you're in from an outsider's point of view? What if you were a third-party looking at the events that are going on in your life? How might you see things differently?
I would probably see it the way my friends do. they are telling me to give up. that shes not worth it. i would also know that i caused most of this by my own actions no matter how minute they were. i would say you idiot how can you neglect her like this you are going to lose her if you dont change fast
Quote: If you were to read your story on the board like it was someone else's thread, what would you post to yourself? What advice would you give to you? How well would you take that advice?!
im not sure. i would probably say to hang in there dont give up and stay the heck away from her for a while
Quote: If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
shed be home already and would have never left me. and i would be putting her on a pedestal everyday and catering to her every need and she would me as well.
Quote: If there was no past history to taint your views of the possibilities of things that could happen in the future, what might things look like?
I dont really think she is just trying to hurt me. she really believes this is what GOD wants her to do.
Quote: What areas of your relationship might it be helpful to "take off your blinders", and see things from a different perspective?
Unsure. any suggestions??
Quote: What does that dot that the teacher drew on the blackboard represent to you?!
IVE got to change things PERIOD........
Quote: What would your answer be to the "miracle question"? Your answer to how things COULD be, instead of the way that they are?
we would be the kind of couple who truly love each other with all our hearts . we would be constantly caring for and nurturing each other. when other people see us together they would long for what we have.
Quote: If you were to start things over from scratch, with a clean slate, what would your relationship be like? What would YOU be doing to help lead it into the right direction?
I would be praying with my family everyday, i would teach them about GOD and i would try my best to make GOD the center of our marriage. and she would always know that i love and care for her.
1. Conflict and anger are signs that your relationship is failing.
True, or false? How do you think your partner would answer?
How have you and your partner dealt with conflict and anger in the past? What is the "typical" thing for both of you to do? What do both of you do to either avoid conflict, or to instigate it? When are the times that you've been able to deal with anger and conflict successfully? When has it worked for them, and when has it worked for you? What were you both doing at the time?
True absolutely, my W said that when we argued about things it just reinforced for her that our M was doomed. Originally we never much argued about anything, cause we both just deftly avoided conflict with healthy doses of love and avoidance.
I remember when we worked out some important issues years ago, it was because I brought them up and sort of forced the issue of talking about them. Then we were able to resolve them by talking and deciding how important they were to each of us. We were both giving up something it seemed, and that made it ok.
Unfortunatelt my W was a much better recipient of those kind of talks than me, as I tend to get defensive quickly and that just colors a conversation so that not much can be accomplished. For whatever reason I tend to link conflict (even conversational) with rejection, and it seems much easier to just postpone that talk than risk being drug over the coals I guess...I'm working on that of course, I know it doesn't have to be that way.
Avoidance of conflict is so much easier than grasping the issue squarely. Generally though it seems to me that it can build resentment and make the issues larger than they started.
Quote: I dont really think she is just trying to hurt me. she really believes this is what GOD wants her to do.
Do you know where & why she's got the idea that GOD wants her to leave the marriage?
I don't know what religion that you & your wife is but there is NOTHING in the Christian Bible which Dictates a Divorce or wife ending a marriage EXCEPT for 1 ground & that's if one of the parties has defiled the marriage bed...
Hebrews 13:1-5 in the New Testament states this...
If she is trying to justify this by using the bible then maybe you can speak to your clergyman about why she feels this way & can go to a Christian Counseling Service - Together - that your clergyman recommends
I'll check on you thread to read what you have posted about your sitch & see if I might be able to give you a few more scriptures if you would like for me to look them up for you.
i know it souds crazy,we are both christians. i have shown her every single passage from the bible concerning marriage and divorce. and there has been no adultery.
she honestly believes this. i tried to explain to her that the LORD is not going to tell her to do anything that will contradict the word, that if it doesnt coincide with the bible it is not GOD speaking to her. that he cannot contradict his own word.
what do you mean by clergymen.( is that the same as deacons im unsure)?? our pastor cant even get her to talk to him. and get this she is a sundayschool youth leader
yes any scriptures you can find. send them to me i need all the help i can get
Quote: my lovely queen! (Yes, I saw your picture in your profile!!)
Thanks for the compliment... actually I needed it today PMA was a little down & that picture was from 2001 before I lost the weight! So that really made me feel good!
I've actually been surprised by how few profiles are in fact filled out here on the board, it would be nice to see some of the folks who are my moral support thru this...
but I'm one of those people who even fill out my instant messenger profiles as best I can feel comfortable with... sometimes it's obviousily joke stuff but at least it's filled out & something to smile about
Quote: Thanks for the feedback,
I figure that if I've got an idea then there are others who are possibly thinking the same, just haven't taken the time yet to speak up
Thanks also for the link to the DR Discussions I really like the way it's laid out with links to the differant threads of interest!
I think that we should either take those off board
or if there are others who are interested in looking at what scriptures have to say but don't know where to look & would like to see it posted...
we can start a new thread in a more appropriate place...
maybe the section where I see prayer requests would be a better place for such a thread...
but to keep your chin up & have a bit of strentgh
I'll end this discussion with this final scriture...
2nd Timothy chapter 13 verses 16 & 17
16 "ALL SCRIPTURE is Inspired of GOD & Beneficial
for Teaching,
for Reproving,
for Setting Things Straight,
for Disciplining in Rightousnesss"
17 "that the man of GOD may be fully competent, completely equipped for Every Good Work."
I'll add the new thread if 2 others post they are interested,
otherwise we can take this off board
thru either email or instant messenger
If you use instant messengers let me know your buddyname & I'll add you to my buddylist & you can add me to yours.
There is a yahoo group which is pretty quiet now the spammers have been kicked out
it has a chatroom if anyone wants to meet there
for live chat as well
I don't remember the actual link but anyone that has a yahoo id can join the group & use the chatroom,
others would only get emails of any postings
You may be completely right about the scriptures....but if YOU are the one showing her....you have a very high chance of pushing her away from scripture and from YOU.
Showing her these things clearly gives the message to her that she is wrong. And it alleviates you from listening to her feelings and what's going on inside her heart.
I'm not saying you're doing that....just that that is the message she is most likely to receive when you're doing that.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
Thanks for the compliment... 
that picture was from 2001 before I lost the weight!
sometimes it's obviousily joke stuff but at least it's filled out & something to smile about