Losing, in a curious way, is winning.

[Distressed67]

Bridgestone,

Thanks for answering my questions I understand your sitch much better. Your H is a lot like I was as I have said before. Unfortunuately he has not learned from anything you have done or said. Getting thru to him will be tough. I do not think he realizes the part he has played in getting your M to this point.

For a long time I blamed our problems on my W. If she would do this or that than we would be happy. Never truely comprehending how I was contributing to the distruction of our M. She gave subtle hints but never coming out and saying what she wanted or needed directly.

I know you have but apparently not in a way that he will listen. My only imput is that if you are commited to making your M work you will need to understand that he also wants to make it work. I know it does not seem like it but he does not know how and you are not telling him in a way that he understands.

He is fighting your efferts because he feels that he has done all the bending. He thinks you should change, you should say your sorry for leaving and you should be the one that needs to make him feel better. True or not but more than likely that is how he feels.

Again I am just telling you how I felt and was thinking for a long time. My W did nothing to wake me up except give me the ILYNILWY speech. You would think moving out would have woken him up but it has not. Hopefully the MC can help you explain it to him in a non threatening manner. Men are stubborn creatures that do not like to admit we are wrong.

Also anger is a tough emotion to control and until he acknowledges he has the problem and gets help it will be tough for him to overcome. And that is a major roadblock to repairing any M. Good luck, I wish I had a way to get thru to him but I do not right now.

[Continuing]

Hey BStone!

Ignorance is not being aware of something, but having the capacity to learn it.

Stupidity is being aware of it, but not having the capacity to learn it.

Hmmm, I've been thinking about this...

I think we all have ways of defending against anxeity and pain. And we can use both tatics as defences; either ignorace or stupidity, to use your words. But I guess what I see as most important is that, in my mind, neither is completely intentional. I think people are unaware, for the most part, of how they avoid what causes them to be anxious (otherwise the defense really wouldn't be working).

Looking at it this way allows me to have some empathy for them along with anger or whatever else is there in me.

For instance, when a person doesn't not do even little things for someone else that they otherwise love, there is a reason for this. I don't think they are just being spiteful, that may be there too, but there is a deeper reason. For someone to avoid doing things as simple as taking about the trash...or getting coffee, I think thats indicative of how deep-seated this underlying issue is; say control and their fear of being out of control and how highly distressing that is for them.

Needless to say it takes a long time for people to become aware of and deal with these issues. It takes a long time for their defences to be broken and for them to change and become a more complete, integrated, self-aware person.

I guess that where the patience, grace, and understanding come in with relationships.

I don't know if that makes any sense, just some thoughts that I was having.

Hang in there, it took me a long time before I could really see what I was doing in my relationship (and I'm still working on it), and this was from a person who thought they really wanted to and was willing!!

By the way, if you could take a look at my sitch and offer your insights, I'd be grateful. My wife, sadly, looks like she is walking away....


B

[lodo]

Hi bridge, was wondering if you'd be back or not.

5 days ago- C for communication, big blow up after getting back. Told H. I would not play his 'games'.

4 days ago- Went dark, minimal contact only for the kids, GAL

3 days ago- GAL continued, told H. I can't control his choices

I don't think you "go dark" by having minimal contact for 1 day.

So, you know me - devil's advocate. The following is just one big "What if?" - creative criticism to get the ol' juices flowing.

Have you ever wondered why, if you aren't willing to go back, you also don't seem to want to move forward?

I think if I was your H, based on what you said transpired over the last 5 days, I'd be confused too. You guys act like you're missing each other - like Distressed said. He is giving more (which probably feels like a LOT to him) but it isn't what you need, you aren't getting it through to him what you have to have but you aren't willing to give up; both of you are forever circling, stuck in a whirlpool but never sinking or breaking free.

I can certainly understand why you want a separate room for DC. Personally, I think it's a little weird, though. If I were in the position of your H, I'd wonder why you were even going to go, because the message comes across as "I don't want to be with you." My attitude would probably be, "If you don't want to be with me, then don't come." Although I wouldn't say that to my W, I'd just be grateful for the time together.

Point being, you're sending confusing messages as much as he is. One of you has got to figure out how to break out of these cycles if you're going to progress. Based on apparent emotional abilities, I'd say that person is going to be you. Which you probably don't want to hear. But if you aren't willing to leave, then you're going to need to do a better job of showing him what you want in a way he can hear.

So, back to those creative juices. If you go to DC and stay in a separate room, how can you do that in a way that sends a positive message?

lodo

[upside_downer]

But if you aren't willing to leave, then you're going to need to do a better job of showing him what you want in a way he can hear.

Remember that DB'ing involves getting a better understanding of how to do things like communication and love in ways the other person will see, not neccessarily the way you would see/understand them.

If he is telling you something, dig a little and figure out what he is saying. He could be giving you a clue that you just don't see right now?

[Forrest Gump]

Forrest- The conflict cycle seems to fit. She does not feel loved, so she does not give respect. He does not feel respected, so he does not give love. Am still working on how to break that cycle. thanks for all your insights and support, despite our different polarities, possibly resulting in poor solubility, I'm willing to learn.
Bridge

That was just for you.. it may not last.. I have a habit of going back to my old ways.

I have not finished my other thought's.. they will be along shortly.

I am not here to hurt you... I will talk straight to you.. I expect nothing less in return. We both will learn something.. I can guarantee that.

Remember.. I am always smiling.. when I am posting here.. sometimes more than others.

I am setting up a new template for talking to you.. I don't like it.. but I am gonna try. You feel free to respond.. any way you like.

Off we go....

his job, he is a work-aholic- continued to have priority over counseling appointments, in addition his verbal abuse and anger, which he exhibited for years was becoming worse. He was also taking physical actions to prevent me from leaving rooms when we would argue.

People.. when things are not working.. try harder. Simple fact. Think cheese less tunnels. It has to work this time. You try harder too.. you just can't see it.. just like him. You always go back to what you know.. the second you can change that and allow for something else to happen.. bingo. A circle.. has a start that is the end. Applying that to life.. when you get to the end of that circle (right back where you started from) you have to find a way to move left or right.. and start a new circle. Now.. someone has to lead.. really they do. So you posted.. you got my vote. That is all that matters. You came here.. to find a way to change things.. so be it. I personally don't suspect.. you came here for any other reason.. other than you want this M to work out.. or you are doing research.. and I am wasting my time. I will trust my gut on this one!

I have been working a full-time job that is mentally demanding, yet flexible in its hours, and pursuing a graduate degree for the past 6 years. He is a part-owner & operator of a multi-generational family-owned business. His typical work-week is 70-80 hours, with more during certain high stress times of the year.

So you two are pretty smart.. and do well in life. You also have introduced a lot of stress in your life. Add some kids.. dang.. how do you manage? Really what it boils down to is.. two very strong personalities.. that were magic at one point.. and now mix like oil and water. I call this life. Life.. Time.. and Kids.. took their toll. Now you are paying for it. We all do.. everyone posting here.

Upon the initial separation he seemed to be doing some DB techniques- "acting as if", "being my friend", but these were from articles our MC gave us initially during counseling. But he was also doing lots of non-DB things- calling at all times of the day & night, alternating between love & hate talk, making promises, then threats, etc.

It is hard for a LBS to function. Really it is. Can you feel my pain yet? I understand why you made the break.. I can't hold you at fault for it.. it was an outcome of the choices you two made together. All of this you see here (DB.com) is the result of two people.. that had NFC what to do. (We could possibly leave out MLC) Only 1/2 of those people post here. The act of WA is not the problem.. it never has been.. the problem becomes no one can really "see" what the issue is. I have long felt that the WAS is in just as much pain.. and has endured more pain than the LBS. So we can take from that.. the WAS is breaking the cycle. Thats a good thing.. and yet.. its a bad thing. Right here is the fight that is DB.com How does one LBS.. or WAS.. make things better? Neither of us know how to "Do It"... and yet.. someone feels like they have to. It's "Crazy" talk. No one understands!!

One commitment we made to each other was to try and maintain a friendship. That has been the one thing that seemed to have kept both of us in contact outside of being parents.

How does this work? Is this just not pointing out the simple fact.. that no one knows what they want? How can you be friends with someone who is WA. How can you be friends with someone who acts like a crazy fool? This.. I don't get.

I lurked because I felt like it gave me a glimpse into what I thought he might use a "play book" to get me back.I stayed because I found that WAW/H voices need to be heard on this forum and it helps me see another perspective from others I don't find as threatening as my H

So.. I think what you said was.. you came here to get prepared. You found a common thread.. people you knew.. people you could rub elbows with.. people that would agree. What you learned.. is people need to see the other side. Perspective.. plays a huge role in this little "game". On that.. we agree. 110%. It does become.. knowing what the other side is thinking. The key to it all.. is getting someone who is there.. to express what they are feeling. Just as in RL.. its hard! Almost impossible.

My current philosophy is: it is almost impossible for us to tackle the major issues of the R without more effective communications tools.

The second you think it.. someone can see it.

You do need some Snap-On quality tools. The reason I use Snap-On.. is simply because my background is automotive. There is nothing better than a Snap-On tool. They fit your hand just right.. they look great.. they have a Lifetime warranty against breakage.. and the Snap-On guy.. comes to you. Now you do pay a premium for them. Usually about 3 times what a tool normally costs. The reason they cost so much.. is because they take the time to make them right. There is that "Time" word again.. it always seems to come up.

You have to rethink where you are and what you hold close. You left all those broken tools right where you were working.. they are still there.. nobody picked them up. I suggest.. you don't use them either. Look at the tools that are on the ground "broken" and decide what new ones you need to finish the job. The Snap-On guy takes trade in's.. you just have to pick the right tool for the job. Heck.. if he thinks you are going to spend some money with him.. he may even let you try them out.

If we can tackle the issues of the R, then work on rebuilding a new R for a new M. It still is a roller coaster of a ride, we're just in different cars.

The second you WA.. "He" moves to the front.. "You" move to the back. I have always thought the back was more "Fun". How bout we get off.. stand in line.. and ride in the middle?

Now...

[Forrest Gump]

5 days ago- C for communication, big blow up after getting back. Told H. I would not play his 'games'.

So.. you went to the C.. for communication training.. and came home with a bucket full of crap. It happens. That "person" sitting in that chair.. with the degree.. expects both of you to get it. The C was showing you something.. you both get a F.

4 days ago- Went dark, minimal contact only for the kids, GAL

So... the question becomes.. is this not a "repeat" of what has happened before? At some point.. this tool worked. Stop using it.. this tool does not smell like cheese.

3 days ago- GAL continued, told H. I can't control his choices, & he has to live with the consequences. He talked, I listened (nothing new there) but SC's bubble analogy made all the difference for me. Forgave H for his lies from 5 days ago, asked him to quit pushing me and this tenuous R back to a M before it is ready. He agreed.

Right here.. you made a choice. You expressed it.. and it worked. Right here would be a focus point. Look at this circle.. and figure out how you got there.

Yesterday- Invited H to my place for lunch, worked on MC homework together, he went back to work, stopped back for ice cream with D after supper. We talked plans for a family vacation to DC. I'm anxious about that, asked him about getting 2 hotel rooms, he didn't see why.. ugg.

So.. what you did.. lasted 2 days. Then you threw in some more of the same.. and it got you some "Drama". Hmmmm.

Why did you talk about a family vacation.. if you were not ready to make it look like one? I got ya.. Why Now? See.. I told you someone could see it as soon as you thought it.

Keep your head up Bridgestone... it is the only way you can see whats coming.

[Bridgestone]

Thanks distressed, lodo & forrest
I'm lucky to have such ardent posters asking and pointing out things I don't see in the moment.

Not sure they are really 2x4's .. just shining lights on things in my sitch for me.

I need time to think about what the light shows and how that fits for me, in a way that I can post a reply.

Forrest thanks for the new format.. it made a difference for me I appreciate you being thoughtful enough to do it different.

Lodo.. devil's advocate? Interesting picture you paint.. me not getting what I want, but not giving up.. yeah, been told before I'm stubborn. Need to think about the rest.

Distressed: I agree he is not hearing me in a way that I think I'm saying things. That's why the communication counseling and why I'm continuing my IC.

night everyone
Bridge

[Distressed67]

I'm not trying to hit you with 2x4's. I see alot of me in your H and I am just trying to tell you how I was feeling and acting. Maybe it is what is going thru his mind as well. It could be why he seems to be doing things that seem strange to you but normal to someone who was there once.

Keep trying different approches to get thru to him. He is just as afraid of being hurt again as you are. Someone needs to make the first move. I have put my feelings on the line because I want to show my W that I am commited to the M, she is not right now. You are the commited one and need to show him some trust.

All of us hate to be vulnerable and have that chance to get hurt but until someone puts that foot foward the R will contiune to be stagnet or worse go backwards until there is nothing left but to end it.

Its your decision on the room in DC. But this might be a good opportunity to show him you are willing to try. Just make sure there are two beds and let him know you are in one and he is in the other. Seperate but working towards together.

Have a great time.

[WCW]

Childish hotel and bed story -
When H and I traveled together after I first found out about ow we slept in the same room same bed at the hotel(and at home).
Then H started sleeping on the couch at home but we still shared a bed when we traveled.
Then H took over booking the rooms and made sure there were always 2 beds, he would wait until I picked one, then he would go to sleep in the other.
I laid awake all night fuming mad!
I turned the tv on one night when I couldn't sleep. We were in a hotel in CO. H got upset because then he couldn't sleep. He packed up his stuff and was leaving me that night. I didn't stop him, but I did say I thought it was pretty silly to walk out in the middle on the country with no way back home. (I had the truck keys. ) He stayed. On the way home we stayed overnight with friends, in the same room in the same bed and H wanted sex. Huh? Then another 15 hours drive home in silence.

After that when I booked a room I booked 1 bed. When H checked in he changed my reservation to 2 beds. When he went to sleep in the other bed I left the room and went to sleep in the truck.

The next time I booked a reservation it was one king bed. I checked in and made sure it stayed one bed. When we walked in the room H walked back out and slept in the truck - or so he says, I never checked and he looked pretty fresh the next morning for sleeping in a truck!

We haven't traveled together for a couple of years now. I don't know if we would still play the same stupid games but I suspect we would.

That's a long story to make my point of - make sure you are clear about how many rooms and how many beds and who sleeps where before you get to the hotel.

BTW - is this a pleasure only trip or sort of a business trip? Why would you choose to vacation with a man you won't live with?

[lodo]

Whether there are 2 beds or 2 rooms, the fact that you're going will mean, based on what you've previously written, that at some point he's going to try to have sex with you. You'll need to decide how you feel about that.