SA, I read all that. I'll probably wait and read it again before I make a longer reply. All I can say now is that I always wanted a good marriage and a happy family. I wanted to make my wife happy. I still do. I really thought I was just doing what it took to make that happen for us. I thought of it as strength, not weakness--the strength to give up what I wanted for the good of the family.
I still don't want to think about divorce. But you're right; if I'm here no matter what, no matter how miserable we both get, then the marriage doesn't mean much.
I have to get up and go in a few minutes, but maybe I'll have more to say this afternoon. Thank you for giving me so much to think about.
Bear,
As a notorious "Nice Guy" myself, I can tell you that I do NOT have all the answers, and I struggle with this too. But I can tell you without reservation that women are, by and large, NOT attracted to this:
Quote:
I wanted to make my wife happy.
Ladies, you can chime in, but what a woman THINKS she wants (and may even actively work to get), and what will ULTIMATELY MAKE HER HAPPY, are very often two different things. In any given situation, a woman will SAY she wants -- and may even TRULY want -- to get her way, but over time?? In situation after situation? She will LOSE RESPECT for you if you constantly give in to her, and will, in fact, find that quality NOT attractive.
A woman desires a man who LEADS, lovingly. Not who SUPPLICATES.
had to chime in here... Puppy is right. Sometimes we don't know what the heck we want, but being a "puppy" (no pun intended ) for her and letting her do whatever is not the way to go.
Im not saying you have to be mean, but for me I was more attracted to someone that was a challenge, more so then someone who catered to me. I know, we are strange creatures but unfortunately that's the way a lot of women are. I man that can't express his opinions or stand his ground on something he believes in, ISNT attractive.
I haven't read your entire stitch, but the heading caught my eye.
One thing I wanted to comment on thou you can still make her feel desirable without letting your guard down. This was major for me and my H. He started commenting on my looks, appearance and so on, and that made it better for me to become more "interested"
Just my .02
me: 37 H: 44 Married for 18 years this june S7 S3 porn issues, and much more... since 7/06
Happiness can be found, even in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.
Take all the time you need and please do the homework I suggested :).
My own view on love is that true love is the action of strong individuals. Strong people love themselves, are ultimately sufficient within themselves, and are therefore able to give to others - time, attention, gifts, even raw emotion - without expectation. In other words they are already "full/filled" and what they give is the excess.
As you start to work your way through all of this, you will realise that giving up things you want is only strong when you are truly happy to do so i.e. without attaching a hidden meaning or price.
But your resentment is now loudly telling you that you were not truly happy to give up these things. Resentment is another toxic weed - one that will eventually overrun your entire marital garden.
So just get rid of your resentment. Mentally cut it all away, and resolve to cut it away again the instant it grows back - and it will because its seeds are the past. Don't blame your wife for the past. Don't even blame yourself - you didn't know any better.
But if there are things you want to do with your life, you definitely should do them, even (or especially) if it requires some discipline and organisation on your part. Oh, and start spending time with your buddies again, maybe a few hours a week.
A man fulfilling his own purpose and conquering the current challenges in his life without leaning on others or the past, is a strong and fulfilled man. He brings home to his wife a very special kind of energy, which the majority of women appreciate and want, even if only on a subconscious level. That is the root of female sexual desire. The more you crank up your own mental and physical male energy (which must be completely independent of anything your wife says or does), the better a chance you have of her making the necessary effort to have a sexual relationship.
Let us know how you get on.
S&A
"A man can be destroyed but not defeated" - from The Old Man and the Sea, by Ernest Hemingway.
Which I take to mean that every man has within him a spirit of relentlessness and optimism. Its already there; he just has to cultivate it.
We talked tonight. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't the end of the world. I tried not to sound angry. I didn't always succeed.
I told her the truth I've been afraid to tell myself: we're headed toward divorce sooner or later unless we fix our marriage. I told her I never want to be divorced from her, but if I can't be her husband, we won't stay married no matter how much that tears me up.
This is the same thing I posted in another thread, here, that started as a request for advice on whether I should talk to my wife last night or not, but quickly spun out of control. I'm going to try to close that one off as best I can and keep this discussion here.
Well, we've made what I thought were hopeful starts before, but I feel good.
In no particular order, I told her:
I'm very angry.
I never want to lose her, but I won't accept being miserable and one of us would inevitably get fed up someday, which means divorce.
Right now we're going toward divorce, not away from it. Our sex life already sucks and our marriage is headed in the wrong direction.
I feel taken for granted. She thinks I'll accept any level of misery just to live in the same house as her. This partly my fault for telling her in word and deed that I would accept any level of misery just to . . . well, you know.
She told me:
She feels taken for granted. Nobody cleans up; everyone expects her to do it.
When it comes to my "morals and the things you believe in" I'm not a pushover, but when it comes to her, I am.
She was surprised to hear me ask about being a doormat, because she thought I'd been a lot more assertive lately, making decisions that needed to be made without consulting her. Looking back on the last month or so, she's right, but I hadn't thought consciously about "being more assertive" or "being a man." I just decided things weren't going to get done if I had to fret and worry about what she would say about the way I did them, so I decided to do them anyway.
She brought up her parents again. This is a common theme. It's true; her mother has a good heart, but she's a domineering woman who rules with an iron fist. Ironically, I have no trouble standing up to her, but then, she's never really approved of me and it's easier for me to stand up to my enemies than my friends. But my wife's father is an alcoholic and a mouse of a man, (but now sober for years, active in AA, and married again, happily, I think) and her current husband is as loud as she is, but certainly not in charge of anything. I always thought of my wife as submissive to her mother and glad to be out from under her thumb, but she says she's afraid she's becoming her mother--a domineering woman with a henpecked husband.
I can see that being henpecked isn't attractive, but more than that, I've always thought of myself as a strong person. I don't intend to be rolled by anyone. I guess I just thought I was showing her respect and making it clear that I trusted her. I was giving her what I wanted from her.
So there's a long way to go, but I feel much better. I made an effort not to do some of the little self-hating things I've made habits of over the years; things I didn't really even notice until they were ingrained habits. For one thing, I bet I say "sorry" 5-10 times a day. I apologize for things I couldn't possibly have done wrong. "My head is killing me." "Oh, sorry." "You don't have to be sorry, you didn't do it." "Yeah, well,I'm sorry you're hurting, though." I'm sure the reply in bold was supposed to be my hint that I was driving her up a wall, but I just thought I was going above and beyond, being a good husband, sensitive to her feelings (cuz gurls liek feelings, amirite?) She's said that many times.
So yesterday, I said "Sor--no, I think I'm going to stop saying I'm sorry so much." "Thank you!"
Finally, I took the big chance for me. Starting small, I kissed her. I didn't want to get too pushy, and I didn't want to get rejected, but I decided that being timid was getting me nowhere. This was before we talked, so I wasn't sure how it would go, but each time I kissed her, she responded. We had several that were pretty warm and a few that were passionate. It's not that we never share a passionate kiss, but I would say we shared more of them yesterday (and this morning before she left) than in the last six months. The best thing about this morning was the lack of frustration. I wanted a long kiss, so I kissed her. Um . . . "longly." She was just out of the shower, wearing only her thin robe, and she was very tempting, but she was looking at me hopefully--it was almost as if she'd be disappointed if I chose not to kiss her, and I could have chosen not to do it. And she responded. She kissed me back. I touched her face and her neck and she leaned into me. I thought about trying for more, but she was late for work, so I let it end there. Maybe it will lead to more later, maybe not. But I wanted it, and I did it. I'm not frustrated about what I didn't get to do, which is a nice feeling.
Anyway, it's the twins' birthday, so we're having a fun morning here, and I'm sure that helps. Let me know what you think.
When it comes to my "morals and the things you believe in" I'm not a pushover, but when it comes to her, I am.
She brought up her parents again.....her mother has a good heart, but she's a domineering woman who rules with an iron fist. .....But my wife's father is an alcoholic and a mouse of a man......her current husband is as loud as she is, but certainly not in charge of anything..... I always thought of my wife as submissive to her mother and glad to be out from under her thumb, but she says she's afraid she's becoming her mother--a domineering woman with a henpecked husband.
Greetings Bear,
This dovetails very nicely with the things that I talked to you about earlier, particularly with regard to what turns her on sexually. Weak men, like her father, TURN HER OFF. Strong men, ones who will stand up to her and not be dominated by her, are what turn her on. I'll repeat something that I said in my first post to you:
Like you, I am no actor and don't role-play well. Neither is my wife turned on by acting or role-playing. So for us, it was important for me to 'man up' both inside and outside of the bedroom in order for the situation to change for the better. No, this doesn't mean becoming a domineering tyrant or bullying jerk. In fact, my wife feels more cared for, respected, and cherished now than when we began this process: I adore her and thoroughly enjoy treating her like the queen that she is to me. It's primarily been about improving my self-esteem, being more assertive and confident, and taking responsibility for those aspects of the family/relationship that my wife would rather place in my hands (i.e. with her consent and approval) --> sex-life included. One could say the process has been one of enhancing our respective masculine and feminine roles in the relationship, which tends to turn us both on to each other.
You've already started to see some positive results from being more confident and assertive around your wife -- including 'taking' those passionate kisses. Your wife is a strong, feminine woman who needs a stronger masculine man in order to feel loved, romanced, and turned on.
And I have no doubt that you can be that man.
Best regards,
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
I understand strong, that's great. Honestly, though, it's irritating that women have this elaborate testing system. She tries to dominate you, telling you all the while how soft and cuddly and sensitive she wants you to be, and if you don't guess right and push back, you fail her little test. It just seems like life could be a lot simpler if she could just say "I want you to be in charge. Please take over." Or--and I realize a lot of people are going to say I'm really far over the edge now--what if, since she doesn't want to be in charge or push her husband around, she simply chose not to do it? Madness?
SOB - don't even get me started about how irritating, confusing, heartbreaking and sometimes horrrible MEN can be when you are trying to figure out what they want and how to navigate their desire and sexual systems....please give some consideration to the OTHER SIDE of the fence and see that men are not just "easy" to figure out and make love to and have fulfilling relationships with. If you haven't tried being with a man yourself (joke) then you will never know this but....it is NEVER easy! Men are slippery, no mattter how solid you think you are.
Honestly, though, it's irritating that women have this elaborate testing system. She tries to dominate you, telling you all the while how soft and cuddly and sensitive she wants you to be, and if you don't guess right and push back, you fail her little test. It just seems like life could be a lot simpler if she could just say "I want you to be in charge. Please take over."
Madness?
You're a man. She's a woman. There are simply some things (many things?) that you are just going to have to get over and accept because you'll *never* fully understand them. You've got the wrong glands/hormones/upbringing.
Also, as I've said before, a lot of sexual attraction and arousal is wrapped up in the sub-conscious. It's not a matter of conscious decision, it's a matter of what works for her (and you). Sometimes, what works for you on the sub-conscious level even goes against what you might like on the conscious level. She might consciously really want to be turned on by a sensitive, non-dominant teddy bear...but you've seen how well that works in practice. It doesn't.
Be pragmatic and go with what works and don't over-analyze it (i.e. don't take after Bagheera). Accept the wonderful mystery that is woman, and love her all the more for it.
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 06/19/0808:00 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
It just seems like life could be a lot simpler if she could just say "I want you to be in charge. Please take over."
Also, for s naturally strong, dominant person, think about how hard this would be to say to anyone, even your spouse. It goes against your natural grain. You might even be ashamed of this desire and fight against it.
It quite literally took my wife YEARS to finally give me a clue as to what she had been dreaming I would just naturally do on my own. She was almost a little resentful that she had to tell me it out loud -- and even then, she only gave me a hint. I had to take that hint and put the remainder of the puzzle together on my own. For a strong-willed, naturally dominant, feminist woman, it's an extremely difficult desire/dream to admit, even to herself.
But I finally 'got it' and will hopefully never call my marriage sex-starved again.
-- B.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
)