I know that the guy she's going to Spain with is OM because she told me his nationality and the guy's name is definitely from that country. He shares the surname with someone else that he can get cheap flights for - when she came to see me last week I was with her when she logged into her airline account and memorized her user ID and password. I saw everything that I needed to. She will be upset that I looked at it but it's a password I could easily have guessed.
So yes, I am left in no doubt. The thing I don't get is that she has made all of these overtures to come back i.e. moving things back into the apartment. I asked her if she had told OM about moving her stuff back and she said "no, not yet". I know that OM has found her in doubt about them and she didn't want to talk to him about it. It seems to have all the characteristics of an affair i.e. deception on both sides.
I think the best thing to do is to wait it out. If and when she comes I will provide a safe and non-judgmental environment for her to talk and then I will know whether she is lying. I'll have to think of another course of action by then, but if she vacillates further then I will go back to Australia and lovingly ask for a cessation of all contact until she knows. The situation is that I have very little contact with her anyway other than email so I don't know what other options are available. I could call her on OM's number now that I have it but that would also make her extremely defensive and take me further from my goal. Ooooh the anger!
Really appreciate your help guys. Do give me more tips if you have them.
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
OK - so you shouldn't have been looking at her flight details. Telling her you were is going to get her upset.
I know it is very hard - I would want to call her on this so badly. Having said that, my head tells me that if you want this to work you should keep quiet about this knowledge, and then when she comes back to you sit on it until she starts to open up about everything. Then see what she says. It's pretty easy to ask someone casually if they had a good weekend and what did they get up to. If she doesn't give you a straight answer immediately I would just bide your time and let her relax and have a chance to open up. It can take quite a while before a returning wayward spouse feels comfortable enough to open up about things. They often fear that opening up will just drive a greater wedge between you. They find it hard to understand that sometimes, even though the knowledge hurts, you just need to know things so you feel the returing spouse is being open and honest. The amount of detail required by the cheated on spouse is personal and varies in each situation. I needed to know everything and once my H realised the importance of that he did open up completely. It can take time though.
On a more practical note, if there is a chance she has been intimate with OM you do need to protect yourself physically - no unprotected sex and she should go and get STD tested- I consider that standard practice. It's one thing to play around with your emotions; it is another thing entirely to play around with your life.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
So nice of you to be looking out for me. I know that they have had a sexual relationship. I mentioned casually when she was here that "we will both now need to accept that we have had other sexual partners" and she agreed - so she tacitly admitted to having a PA. I had a one night stand with a girl shortly after discovering OM - I was so hurt and angry and 100% convinced that my M was over that I felt I had nothing to lose and literally made myself "move on". Now I deeply regret it which is why I was honest with her.
I agree that an STD test will be necessary for mutual assurance. I was protected but I would do it simply to assure her and I would want at least one month to pass before we resumed a physical relationship (that would be tough for me but I can manage it). No point in playing Russian Roulette with one's life.
On the other hand, it does seem that she is edging back into the M but I have no expectations and accept it could be a false start. The only reason I am hanging in there with this M is that I know I'm getting what I deserved with the way I treated her. It's the lingering emotional attachment to OM that I will be most concerned about in the event of a reconciliation - not the fact that she has fooled around during the separation. The lingering attachment as you know can prevent a successful reconciliation.
It just bothers me so much that she is taking this man on a weekend getaway all the while talking reconciliation, future plans, me taking her surname into mine (she gave me the forms), buying the apartment that her Dad lives in so he always has a place to live, another holiday next week to the Baltics. We even went out last weekend to choose a birthday gift for her. Madness. In your experience can letting go of OP be a process rather than an event? This behaviour just seems so jumbled and messed up - perhaps typical of a WAS. I actually have great compassion for her and OM, mixed in with the anger and betrayal.
I don't want to disclose to her that I have these access details as I want to be able to continue snooping (as twisted as that sounds). The reason is that I want to know how honest she is being with me.
You are very very generous is sharing your experience and the insights that you've gleaned Saffie. I have to say this is so much appreciated.
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
You do know that with the HIV testing you get tested now and in 6 months time don't you? You really need to use barrier protection for that 6 month period and until the 6 month test results are back - for both of your sakes.
Regarding withdrawl from the OM - I think it varies from one situation to another. Once she comes back to you personally I would say there needs to be NO contact with OM at all. She may suffer withdrawl symptoms after that but from what I have seen with other people's sitchs, the no contact is VERY important; otherwise they get sucked back in. She is probably using this weekend to break the news to him. I think you can spend a lot of time second guessing her but in the end you have to watch how she behaves.
I was very lucky in my sitch that once my H said it was over it was, (as far as I know), and there was no contact with OW, I never snooped before he told me about the A and I didn't afterwards. To be honest, although I thought about it a couple of times, I did decide that I had to take what my H was saying in good faith unless something really felt wrong to me. He really hasn't done anything since that has made me feel that way. I have got terribly insecure at times and he has always talked it through with me. At some, point I belive, you have to take a leap of faith. My C told me that after what has happened I would be so finely tuned to any changes that I would spot cheating in the future; I believe him - I have to- I would go mad otherwise.
I had half expected my H to take strogly against OW when he recommitted. I wanted him to say that he realised what a manipulative b!tch she was.... yadda, yadda, yadda. When that didn't happen I was really hurt. Don't get me wrong, he was very supportive of me and put lots of effort into getting the M back on track, but I REALLY NEEDED him to diss the OW. It actually happened almost a year after I found out about the A. One day, out of the blue, he apologised once again and talked about the OW and what he felt about her now. It was music to my ears and all the better for not having been prompted by me. (OW was extremely manipulative. My H is Chief Exec of his Co and she wanted the position and cash - not really the man). It was very hard for my H to realise that she didn't really want HIM - that really hurt. It takes time for the shine to go, is what I am trying to say-even when their head tells them they are doing the right thing by committing back to the M.
Your W sounds like she is saying the right things. I know this weekend trip is painful, but until you know more I would really give her the benefit of the doubt - otherwise I would think you will always be wondering what if? It sounds as though you have a real chance at making this work. Realising your own mistakes and rectifying them is an excellent position to be in. I did lots of things 'wrong' in my M, and I feel bad about the things I did, but I also know why the M went south and so I was able to change. Knowing what went wrong makes me feel more secure as I have been able to change and sort things out - if I hadn't known why I would always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.
At some point you will have to stop snooping and trust. It will happen. Until then be very careful if you snoop - if she is genuine and she finds out it will cause friction. Play it by ear.
it is a pleasure to 'chat' to you and I will keep my fingers crossed it goes ok.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Thanks very much for the tips and I will be mindful of all of them. I can't believe the situations that we find ourselves in here but there's no point in being miserable about it. We simply must do whatever we have to save our marriages and ourselves, if we really care that much about doing it. Nathan's and David's posts in the "Successful Men" section I have found very helpful and I read through them regularly.
I ultimately just have to wait for Time to flush the truth out.
best,
GH31
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
It wasn't obvious to me that he did but I am sure he missed her. My H is quite unusual in that once he makes a decision he never considers the 'what if's' - he says there's no point. My eldest D is exactly the same. I guess it's just the way they work. I do think my H was ready to end the A when he told me about it. He did go and say goodbye to her, (perhaps this is like your W's weekend away), and I found that very hard. In the weeks following though, we discovered all sorts of things about OW. She was a member of my H's staff, and other staff opened up to my H once she had gone; it became apparent she had used the A with my H in her favour when dealing with other staff. My H was quite shocked by what he learned; I on the other hand couldn't believe he had been quite so naieve. What he discovered helped him get over her.
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
An update. W called me this morning on my mobile to say that she is not going to come home today afterall as she is very tired from a late night (i.e. her flight with from Spain with OM got in at about midnight). I asked about her weekend and she simply said it was "good". I hate this and I am angry but I am going to be calm for now. She did say that she wants us to go on a short trip to the Baltics for 4 nights as she wants to "chill out". She has been living off her credit card and "chilling out" with OM for the last 7 weeks - I am angry with her at the moment so I am not in the mood for writing nice things about her.
W sent me an email a short while ago that she is going to come home on Wednesday instead as she has an assignment to work on. She said also "I hope that's okay..". Frankly, I do not believe her - I am sure it's simply an excuse for something else. She has moved the goalposts so many times now that I do not believe anything. I think she will come home but I don't know when. So far during this DB odyssey she has done everything she said she would do but always later than when she originally said. She really is in the habit of moving those goalposts around the field continually. PATIENCE I know...
She has booked my flight to go the Baltics, but hasn't booked one for herself yet and neither has she booked a flight to come back to Germany.
On the advise of Just_Me I asked her when she called if she too was 100% committed to our marriage thereby parrotting what she asked me last week. She replied "I am, yes, but there will be a transition period..." to which I agreed. Quite what she means by "transition period" I don't know but I didn't push it. It's not the fact that there will be a transition period that concerns me - I know that all too well - but I want to know what one is as W defines it. If she wants to keep in contact with OM then I am not interested in having her back - not until that is taken care of.
Just venting here guys, want to get this vitriol out of my system before I say something I regret to someone. I know it looks like I am getting a good shot at rescuing this M, and that these things are good problems to have, but I don't like her messing me around like this and wilfully hiding stuff. She said she would be home this weekend and instead she flies OM to Spain. For those of you new to my sitch I am able to see which flights she has booked and with whom, without her knowing. The threshold of my patience is drawing ever closer I think...
best,
GH31
Me: 46 W: 46 T: 23 M: 20 DS12 DD11 DS5
W left: 01/28/08 Discovered OM: 02/26/08 W back for 9 days: 04/08 W returned 05/21/08 EA/PA - 01/08-07/09 W's MLC 2008-2014 (realised this much later)
Translation "Transition period" I am not a 100% committed, but I many be 100% committed to trying. I do not know what else to say. I read your posts, I see you very much wanting your wife back and yet I am not sure if your wife is coming home.
If she doesn't book or come home on Wednesday I think it is time to re evaluate, because obiviously she just keeps you hanging. I think if I were you and she blows Wednesday off, I may write, you don't need to tell me anything more about what you are doing or where you are going, I am tired of words. If you want us to have a relationship prove it through actions, not words in an email.
My prayers to you!
Married:10 years D final 8/28/08 10 minutes is all it took Life goes on and DB was no small part in growing from the Divorce!
Heehee Just_Me - not a bad idea.....hmmm...I wonder where she is.....
and I will keep my fingers crossed it goes ok.