My life don't fit the book, please help.

[lester]

Like I said, in my rambling I get that you're trying help. I appreciate it. I agree with the last part being too passive. I lost composure when the second part of the convo came up but I wanted to be honest about what was said. And no I don't want you to sugar coat it. I really do like that you gave examples of how I should have said things. Actually, I beat myself up worse than any of you.

I guess I'm trying to find the middle road. When I'm calm I suppose it comes off as passive. Maybe I should yell. I'm not being sarcastic but that does get my agressive juices going. Do you think it's wise? I've got books and articles up the wazoo and trying to decipher it against my situation... it's a lot to process.

So, it sounds like you don't want me to do an ultimatum but to be even more absolute about no OM.

[frank_D]

read your e-mail

[Sara]

Lester,


You did really well in that conversation. You and your wife would benefit greatly from a Retrouvaille weekend. As you know, this phase of marriage where things are boring and one spouse starts looking for the brass ring is very common. Retrouvaille teaches you how to move on to a much better relationship.

It is not therapy. It is learning how to communicate with each other. They teach a skill and give you time to practice that skill over the weekend. Once the communication within the marriage is fixed, in most cases, the marriage improves tremendously. And that leads to happy people.

The website has more info, http://www.helpourmarriage.com. You can read on Limbo and EdieMaire's threads how it worked for them. Both went just 2 weeks ago. I know a lot of places have weekends coming up in October. It is actually a very nice way to spend time with your spouse.

[lester]

Yeah, actually we were going to go then fate stepped in and I had to work Anyways, the next one that's anywhere close to us is in February. No way in the world February will work.

[lester]

jeff223,

I definately agree that the LRT is come off as me giving up or being weak. I know. It's just I haven't been in this sitch and doubt many others have either so when I found the book and started reading I was like Ok this makes sense. Did I apply the techniques wrong? I guess, it seems so. Was my goal to be super WUSS? Umm, yeah, no! I was doing LRT because it said, when they won't give up their toys read page 124, LRT. Should I have done LRT or tough love or followed some other advice? Yeah, okay maybe I should have.

I don't disagree I need to shift gears. What I am saying is I am a lost soul trying to get my schtuff together. I actually thought at least the first part of the conversation came off as strong. At least from me... my wife knows I'm even keeled so when I say stuff like that she knew it wasn't my usual. Still frank's words probably would have been better. And I always examine the conversation afterwards. Which is why I'm pretty depressed today. I don't know why the words came the way they did cuz I was feeling more confident than it sounds in print.

Please don't mis take me I do really get that I should be strong in my tone and words. She's more stubborn than a mule though God, I love that about her. I'm trying to feng shui here rearrange my emotional and life long patterns. I know you see me as a wuss but I guess sometimes my words don't catch up with my thoughts and feelings so it comes out that way. I was feeling/thinking "I can't do this I need change - now" and it didn't come out like that. My IC gave me the opening few lines you read... I get his point which is basically the same as y'alls but it was not have been agressive/assertive enough.

I guess a problem I face is she could see me as too assertive because if I say it exactly as proposed then it would be out of character. I don't know maybe I'm rambling again...

[Jeff223]

Hey Lester,
Congrats on the conversation with W.

Yes, as frank_D suggests you could have been more assertive but that will come. You did well.

What makes you all feel good about kicking someone when they're down? I mean what's that about?

If your men cannot lay it on the line then we are no good to you. Reread what you just posted. You are thinking and you are getting stronger. You are pissed and angry. Anger means you are hurt and anger can mean action or depression.

You are choosing action. Action through assertiveness - not aggression.

We are proud of you guy.

You see, guys like frank_D and I get worked up when we see a marriage that has SO MANY indications of it being able to be saved if only the guy will do the right thing.

That is you. Your W is hurt and depressed. Right now in her mind she blames you. OM is simply a "quick fix" (and that IS NOT saying an affair is EVER correct).

"you did not seem to care", "you did not help", "you spent all time on the computer".

Notice, she was not defensive about the OM. She focused on you and the M. She is telling you that she wants YOU to meet her needs, not HIM. She wants YOU to be HER FRIEND - not OM.

Yes, you can save this.

I want to be married ... I don't have a plan

I would give my right arm to hear that from my W.

I'm glad you all have your lifes in order and everythings great. Congrats welcome to the board where everyone's so together and with it.

I will be divorced by Thanksgiving. I have been out of my house since May 2006 - 16 months. I see my kids less than 40% of the time. When my W tried to reach out, as yours is doing now, I fu*ked up b/c I did not see it. I was focused on me and not on her. I was being a wuss bag. I was feeling sorry for myself. I was not being a man. I let emotions drive me - not assertiveness and courage.

I lost.

Now I know better. Learn from where I have been, or not.

frank_D has a similar tale. He turned it around in time. With hard work and effort. He went from Wussy to man. Don't take my word for it - read his saga.

That is all we want for you. You can do this.

I'm not flipping stupid. I know it boils down to that one word - confidence. When I have these talks in my head I'm cool, calm and collected. Clint Eastwood would be jealous. When I look in her eyes and see her hurt and even anger well let's just say the conversation comes out like posted above.

Confidence can only come from courage. The courage to look her in the eyes, look past her hurt and anger, and be her rock. That is so, so hard. We know b/c we have been there.

Courage means showing her with actions, not words.

Courage is doing the right thing. It is not issuing ultimatums, or threats, or pleading, or reasoning. Just do the right thing - for her and for you.

Do it with honor: Honor is KNOWING deep down that you are doing the right thing.

What is the right thing? I think you will figure it out. I read it in your words.

Strength and courage. They are your tools.

Now you are thinking and now she is too. Excellent. Give her some space and formulate your strategy.

Remember what she said: "I want to be married".

Make her continue to feel that way. Make her say "I want to be married to YOU more than anything"

Strength and Honor.

[lester]

Thanks jeff and frank. I know I ramble and I'm actually feeling better talking to you all because friends don't get it.

I think (and could be wrong)that if I stay off R talks (which DB suggests) and focus on keeping everything together and myself (working out, GALing, building confidence) and nothing builds confidence like success, right? I need to detach because I have become dependent on her smile for my happiness (stupid, yes) but I've been detaching and trying to do it the right way by being calm and non-reactive only pro-active.

Maybe I can't undo superwuss overnight so I'll have to pretend until becomes who I am. What I mean by pretend is even if I'm not feeling confident to act with conviction of purpose as if I were and the feeling should follow (correct me if I'm wrong)

I wonder, though, the wisdom of bring up R talk again? I'm thinking of perhaps applying a calm confidence to when she asks questions like can I go golfing? To just say "No, you can't go golfing with him" to which she could revolt but knows where I stand. Point well made. At least for now I don't think a "big talk" is needed but living my life like a MAN.

Some positives that I have done:
- She always calls me up to our room after work. She talks about her day or not then turns to the TV. I say, I'm glad to hear your day went well. I'm going to go play with the kids (or something else). I spend time but leave before she can go cold.

- She criticizes me for how I dress S2. I say I dressed him appropriately but if you want to dress him tomorrow that's fine.

- After last night her coolness is gone. She apologized this morning for how hard this is on me (not what I was looking for cuz it doesn't admit guilt), however, it does show that her mood has shifted.

[lester]

Jeff and frank. thank you so much I guess I had to ramble a little before I felt better. I don't ask to sugar coat anything - I need to hear what I need to hear no matter how it makes me feel. Facing demons isn't fun but it's the ONLY way.

[saffie]

My H didn't fit the book completely. He told me about his A because I missed the trail he was leaving me. He wanted me to show that I wanted him and the way to do that was by being strong about it. It worked. We lived through a week of hell when I thought it could go either way but he tells me, (and hindsight is wonderful isn't it), that from the first day I went nuts about it, and he knew I really still wanted him, it was a done deal.

I have read the guys posts and I can see that from where you are situated they are strong. Also they don't know your W and how she would react to some of their advice. However their concepts I applaud - and so obviously do you.

I am posting because as a woman I see a lot of hope in your circumstances - your W doesn't look like she has checked out of your M yet. Keep up that PMA - it really helps. Expect the lows again tho' - we all get them - we are after all human.

My H loves that I am stubborn and muleish. He loves my quick wit even when it is being used against him. He has had to take , and continues to take, flack from me, mainly in the form of humour, for his A. He is a man and stands. I can't walk all over him and tho' I hate that he had an A it sure woke me up and showed me who I wanted to be with. I love him and respect him. Trust we are working on and it will be a work in progress for a long time - but things are still much better than before and neither of us would rather be with anyone else - now and hopefully forever. For my peace of mind he is transparent.

You have so much going for you Lester.

Saffie

[Jeff223]

I think (and could be wrong)that if I stay off R talks (which DB suggests) and focus on keeping everything together and myself (working out, GALing, building confidence) and nothing builds confidence like success, right? I need to detach because I have become dependent on her smile for my happiness (stupid, yes) but I've been detaching and trying to do it the right way by being calm and non-reactive only pro-active.

YES! You are starting to GET it.

Success does not build confidence for the man. COURAGE does. Courage means trying. Courage means doing the right thing, each and every time, regardless of the outcome. Courage means you will FAIL most of the time.

But true courage means knowing you will come out okay regardless. Courage means believing in YOU.

If you don't fail, you never will learn. If you don't learn, you will not grow as a man.

Maybe I can't undo superwuss overnight so I'll have to pretend until becomes who I am. What I mean by pretend is even if I'm not feeling confident to act with conviction of purpose as if I were and the feeling should follow (correct me if I'm wrong)

No you are not wrong. Courage means doing things when you are not confident. If you do courage, you will not need to pretend. Invest 10 units of courage and you get 10 units of confidence. That is a truth.

Invest 10 units in a "poor me" attitude and you get 10 units of loss which means more anxiety, then more "poor me", then more loss. A never ending cycle.

This cycle is called suffering. And you do it to yourself - she has no part in it.

But courage = confidence. The more courage, the more confidence. The more confidence, the less fear you will have and the less courage you will need in the future.

You have Courage lester. It is within you.