Gone Dancin's Dilemma, 3

[ItsKat]

Hi GD,

Your draft is very well-written and you obviously put a lot of time and heart into it. I agree w/ the others that my first impression was that it was too long. I can see how you might feel, though, that what was suggested would be too short for all that you want to say. Maybe somewhere in the middle, then?

If I am remembering correctly, you were, at one point, writing your W letters every week? (Sorry if I am remembering that wrong) If that is so, then I would bet that a lot of what you wrote in that draft was already written in those letters as far as where you went wrong in the M. There is no need to repeat that stuff. You have written it, she, most likely, has read it.

One thing you might want to make sure you say is that you don't expect an answer from her right that minute. What you are going to be talking to her about is going to take her by surprise and it would be best to let it sink in and give her some time to think about it.

That is perfect that you have an appt. w/ a DB coach tomorrow. I am sure you will get some great feedback from her.

[NikB]

GD - silly me, I forgot to start off with - YAY for those positives. Bet it was great to hear that giggle.

Ok... since you asked... this is ONLY based on recent conversations with two WAWs, my SIL and my stepmom.. not from me personally. Also... my SIL is really, really done. I don't believe there's any way her H could get her back at this point. He could be her dream man... doesn't matter, she's DONE. My stepmom on the other hand, seems like she could turn around. My dad would have to go through some monumental efforts, but I can see her turning around. I'm also giving kind of the extreme end of the spectrum, but it's what I can imagine those two saying to me if their Hs gave them this in writing.

(if their Hs said it aloud.. they'd tune out quick, that's why I recommend keeping it short)

So that said.. from both of those viewpoints... here's what kinda jumped out at me. This will get huge if I quote the whole paragraphs but I'll quote the first part and go in order.

First, I want to apologize for filing for D in the first place. It wasn't something that I wanted, but something I did out of spite more than anything....

WAW thoughts: Why apologize? The M is failing, obviously you saw it too.

My take: It may be good to mention this BRIEFLY and then follow up with "It was an attempt to regain some control, not what I actually wanted." And if you MUST say it maybe turn the rest into positive instead of your failings. For example, "I should've shown empathy and concern for you instead of trying to take control."

Throughout our M, I consistently failed to meet your needs. I did what I thought you needed, rather than really looking at or asking you what you needed to make you happy...

WAW: Yep. Thanks for realizing it but here you go again trying to manipulate me into doing what you want. And who are you to say what married couples "should" be? And you waved it off then, why wouldn't you now?

Out of that paragraph here's probably the part I'd keep:

I took both you and our M for granted, and forced us to live a lifestyle that I thought was "right," yet neither of us truly wanted.

It acknowledges your role without overstating it, and also the fact that you acknowledge you BOTH didn't want it.

However, I've finally gotten to a place where I can own all of my mistakes, short-comings, etc, and let them go...

WAW: blood boiling, steam coming out of ears. "Gee thanks, you ruined the last 5 years [10 years, whatever years they were 'miserable' this week], sooo glad you were able to forgive yourself and let that go, jerk." (seriously.. SIL said something close to this). And now YOU are telling ME how to forgive??? Forgive ME??? For WHAT?? You were the one who screwed up our M.

My take: I totally relate to what you're saying here but I honestly wouldn't share much of it. Don't bring up her mistakes, her forgiveness, any of that... it'll just piss her off.

Something else I wanted to address was my poor attempt at unfiling for D, and what I mean by that is the fact that I didn't talk to you about it, but instead sent the request through our atty's. Talk about sincere, huh?! How could I have ever expected you to respond favorably to such a request that was made in such a way?

WAW: Yeah.. you tried to control me, it didn't work, now you're trying to control me another way. I don't care what you've "struggled" with, so have I.

My take: DO NOT ask her, try to push her, any of that if she's "100% sure" right now. Tell her maybe that you wish you had approached it directly instead of via the lawyers. Tell her what YOU would like, but don't push for an answer or ask her to see it your way. Keep it simple, like Dave suggested earlier.

I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know need to be made for me so I can be a better person.

WAW: About damn time. Too bad it's too late for our M.

My take: Just don't mention it... actions, not words.

going through what we've gone through for the last 8 months was the best thing that has happened to me, and not because I've lost you, but because I've found me and the kind of person I want to be.

WAW take (and also basing this on my H's reaction when I said something similar): yeah, this has sucked but it's been a good time to rediscover ourselves and what we want out of life.

My take: again based on my H... he was really touched when I said something like this. I said I hated how it happened and it was incredibly hard, but thanked him for teaching me that I had to find happiness within myself. DO NOT NOT NOT say you've "lost her." Mention losing an unhealthy M and wanting to start a new R with her with what you've learned - AT MOST - but don't say you've lost her. It makes her a posession, it plays on her guilt, and it also cements in her mind that your R is over.

I guess I say all of this so I can get it off of my chest one last time and let you know where my heart is,...

WAW: And expect me to be there for you once again, not even ask for my opinion, just listen to YOUR problems.

My take: again keep it to the simple, direct request to postpone the D. Leave the rest out.

... obviously sitches very, people vary, but hope that helps some. Also look forward to hearing what your DB coach has to say.

[C_K]

nikki

I could imagine my W saying most of that stuff at some stage over the last year you have covered that mindset so well.

GD

When my wife was still living with me and OM R was going well she would have said all those things and more. I believe if I tried to confront her with anything like your letter I would still get a good dose of the above.
You know my sitch and I have learned that leaving it alone and detaching is the right thing.
Do you know the best thing I said to my W , the one thing that I think has had the most effect?

I went to her Apartment on a flimsy excuse and took up a couple of beers. I offered her a drink and we sat down . In amongst the small talk I said something along these lines. ( the exact words escape me)

" W, I realy do understand why you needed to do this and its OK you know , and I am OK with it"

I left it at that.

She knows I think it was a bad idea , she knows it hurt me and the kids , she has seen all that stuff .

If you think your W has not heard you in the past , just try changing your mind on something and see how fast she remembers exactly what you said! LOL.

I know you are worried about the D , but thats a train you may not be able to stop for now. Its not the end , There are plenty of post D success stories out there.

Dave

[Gone Dancin']

Ouch! I think I just got kicked in the nads!

(of course I'm kidding Nikki, but the tail is definitely between my legs right now! )

You make very good points, and I'll definitely kick them around. It is obvious that I'm going to have to go short and sweet with my talk, but I want to make sure I come across with confidence and a positive tone and body language too. I really appreciate the potential WAW perspective, Nikki. Thanks!

I'll keep taking opinions if anyone's got 'em!

GD

[imLIN]

Yep, too long...

Make an outline of the most important things you want to say...

This way if you have to refer to your "cheat sheet" you can just tell her that you didn't want to forget anything important...then just say it like you mean it...from the heart...she knows you well enough to know if your being sincere or not...

Also...I would leave less time between the talk and the D...I did mine 5 days prior...I think this almost pressured him to make a quit decision rather then think it over too much...the bad part was he went dark for 5 months...the good part is he did agree to jointly meet before a judge to stop the divorce and revert it to a legal seperation....

I think too you are putting too much emphasis on YOUR changes...I would mention how you are working on your issues and will continue to do what you need to improve yourself so that everyone benefits...pointing out this is something you feel you need to do for YOU...

Do an outline...state what is important...and let me read that...okay?...I find it hard to really focus on the whole letter to really comment much because I get lost in the "stuff"...now sure how your wife is but if it is too wordy I do get lost...to the point, quick, and sincere...that works for me...

Hope this helps...Lin

[Atlas]

gd,

i agree, make that thing short and sweet. it seems like a large part of it is a recap of things you were or did, and as nikki said if you go that route she will hear those things load and clearly, and when you start on the parts you want her to concentrate on, she will be thinking about those things.

i don't know your w, but maybe sit down and go line by line, after some editing, and think what her reaction will be from her state of mind and perspective.

as for you, i think if this is what you need to do, then do it. i'm of the mind set that i will not leave a stone left unturned, because if i do, i will never sleep again.

[Gone Dancin']

Thanks Dave,

I have never believed that I will be able to stop or postpone the D, and I've said as much. I'm trying to rid myself of this mindset though, and start with a beginners mind like Michelle has said to do (and Nomo reminded me about). Yes, I do believe that much of what I could say in the talk would like be damaging in the short term, and likely push her away for a spell. However, I tend to wonder the effect in the long term. I think that I would likely prolong the desire to reconcile in my W with this talk, but I'm debating whether or not that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make just so she'll hear much of how I feel.

Thanks again, Dave!

GD

[Gone Dancin']

Thanks Lin and Atlas -- great points and reinforcement of others too.

Lin,

I'll go ahead and do some outlining, but it might not be for a day or two. I'm still taking in everyone's ideas and letting them sink in. Plus I'll be getting my DB coach's 2 cents on the draft tomorrow, and I'll likely note the various comments by my fellow DBers and run them by her too. Thanks for taking the time to stop in! You've been really helpful of late, and I appreciate it a great deal!

Atlas,

I like your idea of running through it line by line and trying to consider hearing everything from the perspective of my W. I'll definitely give it a go and see what I find.

GD

[Gone Dancin']

Himey and Kat -- sorry! I forgot to get back to your posts!

H,

I think you're right in that I should go light on the "I'm changing" portion, but may want to steer clear of the owning my anger and control issues though too. It's probably best that I try to avoid painting old visions of the bad times in her head.

My sense is that you've got 4 minutes or so before she tunes you out.

I think 4 minutes would be an astounding amount of time for her to stay focused! I'm thinking I've got a minute at best! I could probably ramble off the whole draft in the 4 minutes. Nonetheless, by talking about how long it would take her to tune me out, you've helped me see how making it short and sweet will benefit me more. Thanks for that!

Kat,

If I am remembering correctly, you were, at one point, writing your W letters every week?

That is correct -- only 4 letters total.

If that is so, then I would bet that a lot of what you wrote in that draft was already written in those letters as far as where you went wrong in the M. There is no need to repeat that stuff. You have written it, she, most likely, has read it.

Excellent point! I'm sure it's not like she forgot what I wrote, or anything. She did tell me when I had asked her about them that she had read "some of them," which in my mind honestly translates from Alien to English as meaning "all of them." I sometimes wonder if she's possibly even kept them (I'd love to think the answer to that is yes!).

Realizing this, I'm sure I can shorten it up and just hit the main points -- now I've just gotta figure out what she likely already knows so I can avoid that stuff, and focus on how best to entice her to consider postponing the D.

One thing you might want to make sure you say is that you don't expect an answer from her right that minute.

Absolutely -- in fact, I think I'm scared to death at the thought of hearing an immediate reply! I think I might even go with Lin's suggestion to wait about a week or so prior to D day, so it becomes more of a crunch time decision and causes her to have less time to consider it and therefore possibly overthink it. I'm thinking I'll tell her the evening before I leave for the Orlando event, which will be exactly a week from D day.

Thanks again guys! All of this feedback has been fantastic!

GD

[oldtimer]

Hello,

What is the point of your letter? Get to it and cut out everything else -- especially all the stuff about YOUR experience. That letter is ALL about you. Sending a letter all about you to a WAS is tedious, annoying for them and confirms their own views.

Be direct, brief, and to the point. And, if you actually want her to consider it rather than merely react to you by pushing you out of her space in whatever way is most effective at the moment, then send it by email:

"I am sorry I did not treat you better in our M. I can see how my actions hurt you deeply. You deserved much better. I am sorry for pushing the D. I would like to file for legal sep instead of D, or drop either option for now. Are you open to either of those possibilities?"