Gone Dancin's Dilemma, 3

[Gone Dancin']

OT,

Let me just say that I'm honored by your presence on my thread -- I've respected your opinions a great deal everywhere I've encountered them!

What is the point of your letter?

It's not a letter, but rather what I call "the last stand talk" -- a speech in all actuality. My D is scheduled to be final on Aug 16th, and since time is running short and I've been virtually pitch black for the last 2 months of our 8 month separation, I have been kicking around the idea of addressing postponing/recinding the D shortly before that day comes. So, the purpose is to convince W to postpone/recind the D. Any thoughts on how best to do this?

That letter is ALL about you.

Excellent point -- any idea on how to focus the talk toward W while still getting her to consider postponing the D? Oops -- just realized you had given me something along those lines. Unless you've got anything else to add, nevermind!

Thanks for your time and thoughts, OT -- they are very much appreciated!

GD

[SunnySeason]

from Sunny & Still on Sunny's computer:

Nick, We've just caught up, read the 2nd draft (never got to the 1st) and all the comments & suggestions and, honestly, came to the very same conclusion OT posted. If you really need, we can copy your script (since it wasn't a 'letter' so much as a talk, yes?) & highlight all the "I" stuff and "I want you to hear me" things. Not good.

You said:

the purpose is to convince W to postpone/recind the D.

What part of this is NOT controlling, do you think? Making her listen to your realizations and wants & feelings is NOT thinking of anyone but yourself.

You are still trying to get her to do something FOR you, that YOU want and not her. Yes, it's a great thing (postponing the D; saving your M) but is, in effect, ARGUING w/her about what she thinks or wants or needs!

What is the short & sweet that you want W to hear? THat you're sorry (and it's okay to be non-specific here! Don't go off into the "for this & that" tangents); that you care for her (enough to let her go); that you are not wanting to go forward w/the D. Anything else is just verbal ma$terbation. This is NOT about you; it's about her. Care enough about her to allow her decision - whatever it may be. Put the germ of the idea of postponing the D in her mind, but don't ask for a decision right then. Don't even set a deadline. That would be pursuing & pressure, yes? THAT'S how you stop the control.

[Atlas]

gd,

something i forgot. i've been thinking for a while about doing an apology and have been researching as much as i can. while the research i have found doesn't always necessary agree, or have the same elements the one thing that is in common is, the apology is about the other person, not you.

i think the letter does focus on you and your faults a bit. don't reply the tape for her and then send your main message. by the time you get there her mind will be rewinding and replying and she won't be in the best mind set.

try to make the talk so that you grab her attention, she wants to listen and then make your point. not really sure how to do that, but whenever you negotiate think how much you really listen to the other person. think back to things she has said, especially recently, and how she would like to be approaches.

[waw1978]

Hey GD

Guess I missed the big party on your Last Stand last night! LOL.

Great way to get all of your thoughts on paper. You will be going into this prepared. It is a bit long and wordy. I do think the suggestions of going with a more direct approach would be best. Keep it short and to the point. Then let your W have her say...by all means after you have a dialogue going with your W, let loose with the apology. Don't say the "horrible husband part". Just acknowledge your actions that made you such.

I think the other WAW on here have given you good direction.

[Gone Dancin']

Hey all,

I want to thank EVERYONE for taking the time to put in their opinions on my last stand talk! It has all been extremely helpful and has shown me that I have a lot of work to do still before I figure out how to effectively communicate with my WAW.

The following is just cut and paste notes from various posts that I want to take from in creating a third draft -- one that is MUCH MUCH shorter and to the point.
________________________________________________________________


W, I am not ready to follow through with the D next week and I am sorry I started it in the first place. How would you feel about postponing it for now?

I've been working really hard on myself and making changes that I know needed to be made so I can be a better person. Going through what we've gone through over the last 8 months has been incredibly hard, and I hated the way it all happened, but I'm thankful for what it has shown and taught me about myself and who I want to be. It was also good because we lost what was an unhealthy R, and that definitely needed to happen for the both of us.

I want to apologize for filing for D in the first place. It was an attempt to regain some control, and not what I actually wanted. However, what I should've done was show empathy and concern for you instead of trying to take that control.

I took both you and our M for granted, and forced us to live a lifestyle that I thought was "right," yet neither of us truly wanted.

I'm sorry for sending a request to unfile for D between our atty's, rather than just talk to you about it. It didn't come across as sincere and was definitely in poor taste.

W, I really do understand why you needed to do this and it's okay you know, and I am okay with it.

I'm working on my issues and will continue to do what I need to do to improve myself so that everyone benefits. But especially, I feel this is something I need to do for me.

I am sorry I did not treat you better in our M. I can see how my actions hurt you deeply. You deserved much better. I am sorry for pushing the D, and would like to file for legal separation instead of D, or drop either option for now. Are you open to either of those possibilities?

I'm sorry for how badly I hurt you in our M. I care so much about you -- enough to let you go if that's what it comes to. However, I don't want to go forward with the D at this time. Are you opposed to the idea of postponing it or going through a legal separation for now?

I don't need or expect an answer right now -- I just want to put the idea on the table.

_________________________________________________________________


I'm getting ready to consult my DB coach here shortly, so in the meantime if anyone reads this stuff and wants to comment about any of it, please be my guest! I'll be taking from this, as well as from my DB coach's ideas, and putting out a new draft later this afternoon or evening sometime.

GD

[Nomopo]

Hi GD!

Wow, how did I miss so much??? Trying to catch up by BB, but it is tough. I will comment specifically on 3rd draft (unless a 4th comes after DB coach), but two thoughts. First, instead of how do you feel about postponing, I'd like you to consider postponing or I'd like you to think about whether the D needs to be finalized now as opposed to a few months later. Don't shoot for an answer from her during the talk. Second, everything you say should forward your goal of a delay. That's it.

Later,
Nomo

[Gone Dancin']

Nomo,

First, instead of how do you feel about postponing, I'd like you to consider postponing or I'd like you to think about whether the D needs to be finalized now as opposed to a few months later.

I've struggled with how to word that part, but I feel like wording it in the way you are suggesting would make it about my needs and what I want, and therefore might sound controlling. What do you think?

I definitely won't ask her for an answer at that point (though she may just volunteer one ).

everything you say should forward your goal of a delay.

Any suggestions from the above cut and paste notes on what those kinds of things might be in your opinion?

Thanks Nomo -- talk with you later.

GD

[NikB]

Ouch! I think I just got kicked in the nads!

Aw sorry GD... I should've offered an ice pack along with my post.

I'm glad it was useful to you. It's been a real eye opener listening to/seeing my SIL and stepmom, that's for sure.

I'm waiting for your next draft after talking to your DB coach - curious to see what they have to say.

[Nomopo]

GD,

This is about what you want\need. Don't try to hide that. This is the last stand talk. Don't hold back. Be honest. You think the D is a mistake. Its really big, and you want her to be sure about it. You don't want her to just plunge ahead. You want her to consider if a delay of several months would be something she could do. If she has any doubts she might. Frame your attitude about the talk as "W, if you have any doubts why not give it six months. You can always get the D later if you're sure. But if you're not sure now, why force this through?"

[Gone Dancin']

Okay, posting some notes from DB coach Vernetta for what an LBS can do during an 11th hour talk with his/her WAS about postponing or recinding a D:


1. It doesn't hurt to apologize for some of the major mistakes or choices you made that hurt your WAS or helped cause the breakdown of the M. If you frame it right, it will likely benefit you. It won't necessarily cement in their minds the reasons for why they were right to walk away. In fact, if you've shown them constistent change for a decent period of time, they will recognize that you aren't that same person you are referring to anymore. The frame she said you can put it in is this:

"W/H, I've learned a lot of lessons over the course of the last X months. Looking back on our M, if I could do it all again, here is what I would do...".

Framing it in this way allows them to see what a new/future R/M with you might look like.

2. Make sure you have a buy-in for the WAS as to why they should postpone/recind the D. Ex: I tell W that I'm not ready for the D right now and would like to postpone it for now. W responds with, "Why? How would doing so benefit me?"
-- what can you say at this point that will give her good cause to consider your request (what will make her really think it is a good idea)? What would be a good reason for her -- something finanical, something about the kids/family, something about health, something about you, etc? What is one important issue you can use to convince her that postponing/recinding the D is a good idea? That is what the heart of your talk stems from.

3. After creating a dialogue with the WAS about this, maybe say to them, "If there is any part of you that has any doubt about this D, can you let that part of you talk about it now?" Then just listen and validate.

4. Consider giving your WAS a letter that acknowledges and apologizes for XYZ, and explains what've you've learned through all of this. However, give it to them and then ask them to read it in front of you, so you can gauge reactions. You might get angry, sad, or both (or other). They may even stop and refer to something in the letter that makes them mad, which gives you an opportunity to say something like, "Wow. Can you tell me a little more about that?" or "I can understand how you would feel that way," etc. It opens more doors for dialogue on the important issues.



for my coach, I read through the cut and pasted list of possible things to say to my W that I recently posted, and she didn't seem to hear anything that she felt should absolutely not be said (of course at this point we were running short on time so we couldn't really break down the semantics of everything).

I didn't read her my long 2nd draft though, since I pretty much got the unanimous vote from everyone here that it had a lot of problems.

That's it for now -- kick around the above comments from my coach and tell me what you think. I'll be back to post some more later. Gonna let my brain rest on my issues for a while.

GD