The Plank is out of my eyes, but too late for WAW?

[Heimlich]

Sunny,

Thanks. I hadn't thought about it from the perspective of "seeing the playbook." It's not worth doing, you're right. Just curious, but did anyone try that approach, with or without success? As I gear up to this, I'm reading and trying to provide some thought to other sitch's -- nomo, ck, I think I added yours recently. As others have said, it helps clarify one's own thoughts and it feels good to help someone else out.

I did make the pushing mistake of emailing her a suggestion about an ebook that I found. If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, I may be borderline. As of now, no more pushing. DB all the way, because talking and telling her my feelings sure as hell ain't working. I just keep hoping against hope that she'll turn to someone, someone who knows about relationships/marriage, for some insight rather than relying on her internal feelings and compass. I really do think that might get her to think about things in a new light. Regardless, not going to happen by me pushing. Just for kicks, the email is below.

OC, I don't think my W is carrying on the A. I asked her, and she has looked me in the eye and said no. Plus, I don't get that vibe from her. Looking back, there were signals last summer, I just didn't pick up on them. Plus, realistically, she knows that all she has to say for me to immediately end this is "I'm with him again/never left." I would be out the door. She hasn't, so I just have to trust her. I feel for you though. Especially the age. How does a 38 year old woman have an EA with a 22 year old? I was pretty mature back then, but nothing like I am today.

Regarding the ebook, I'm interested. I have a few as well, we can trade. My email address has my name, can you post yours and I can respond directly? If not, easy enough to get a gmail account.

I find it fascinating that every good ebook on saving the marriage that I've looked at focuses on the same too basic actions -- make yourself a better person (for you and because the person you've become, once you look at yourself, is someone that your S no longer wants to be with, at least in the way you act toward the other) and secondly, don't push.

I'm thick, but not that thick. I'm fully on board now. DBing away. Focus on me. No more ILY/pressure. Detach from her -- when she's around! (was easy in LA). Become the man I want to be and remain open to reconciliation.

Hey, fully knowing that you dislike this approach, but also knowing,
from my experience, how much reading some of the relationshp books has
helped me, would you be willing to work through a book like this:

http://www.stayorgo.com/

Either with me or independently? (I skimmed some articles by the
authors.
This isn't happy talk BS stuff.)

I know from my own experience that before I began reading some things
and really thinking about myself, that I was clueless about my real
feelings for you. I've tried to explain what's in my heart by my apology
on my bday and then a little more yesterday. Please don't think that I'm
saying that you haven't thought deeply about your decision. I know that
you have. I did too about us from Oct to April; and I did try to
reconnect with you. But reading stories about people who have been in
the same situation as us, some of whom worked their relationships out
and some who didn't, really opened, and continues to open, my eyes about
me and us. It made me realize how I drove a wedge between us, albeit
unintentionally.

One thing I've always believed is that falling in love is something that
happens. You "fall" without any real effort. After that, it's a daily
decision; I choose to be in love with you. I can absolutely tell you
that in the past few weeks and months, when I consciously decided to
love you again, that I've felt more in love with you than I have in
years. Making the bed upstairs, because you like it that way, is a small
example of that. Doing that for you made me feel good.

For the first time in many years, my heart is open. I will never close
it again. I've always been scared of being hurt and held myself back a
little bit, mostly from other people, but also with you in the past few
years. I now understand that closing myself off hurts worse than the
possibilty of pain from being open. Because being open means a chance
for real love and joy.

I love you. I hope that's not the last time I have a chance to say it. I
know that trusting me again is scary. And, you're right, we may no
longer be able to be a couple again. I know and understand that. What I
don't know, definately, is whether both of us being open to love at the
same time again would lead to a lfelong love affair between us. I think
so. That was the case when we met and for years after.

With love,

Me

[Nomopo]

H -

I am not caught up on your thread right now, but on the book, I haven't heard of anyone having succes geeting the WAS to read DR or Db unless and until the WAS is re-invested in trying to save the M/R. Yours is not. She won't read it, and even if she does, she won't agree with it. Better not to try as the request is just more pressure that will push her away. I tried to get my wife to listen to some program tapes I have from my pre-DB discovery, and she started to but didn't finish and said (1) she didn't agree with what the lady said and (2) thought it was for couples in a different place than us.

[theoden]

Heimlich,

It seems you are spending enormous amounts of energy trying to save your marriage. Delia pointed out something key to you: give her space and start to work on yourself.

The reason you are losing your wife is that you have probably lost yourself. Your career slipped, as you pointed out. You were probably mildly depressed or bored with your life. You let your body go to pot, etc.

OK...time to find yourself. Save yourself and you might save your marriage.

Stop chasing her, it's making you come across as pathetic, needy, weak and fearful. STOP!!!!

--Theoden

[Kelley]

Heimlich,
I do really feel the pain that you are going thru. My H told me the same thing when I told him that I wanted us to put a real effort into working on making things better for us. He said the same thing about how he didn't want to remain miserable for the rest of our lives. If we both started working on changing our destructive behavior then he don't know if we would be miserable again. I told him that we could have gone the other way and be closer then we have been in years and all he said was that he didn't love me anymore. We could have changed that. We could have both put in an effort and in 6 months there may have been something there again.

We have two youngs kids and like Sara said they deserve to have both of their parents together in a loving relationship. Calling it quits should be a last resort and not a first resort. Neither one of us have been really trying to build a good R and if we both can change then our family deserves that.

I would love to try that Retrouvaille but my H would never in the world go for something like that. Now I can only wait and hope that he can work things out on his own. I doubt it because I am sure that is the last thing on his mind.

[Heimlich]

Theodin (I always have a "lord of the rings" moment when I see your name),

Thanks for the kick in the pants. You are exactly right. I know you're right. It's time to focus on me.

Going to a dance lesson on Wed. Invited my W, but she's not interested so going alone. Am under 200 pounds for the first time in at least 6 years. Feels good. 30 pounds to go to get to 170 (a weight at 5' 6", I look pretty good at).

Kelley, too bad we can't infuse some of our M-saving desire into the other's S. I know that my girls will be OK in the long run because my W and I both love them and are determined not to hurt them. At the same time, I so wanted to give them a loving home with both parents.

I'm not giving up hope. Like Theodin said, I have to stop pushing and focus on me. From there, who knows what may happen. I think my W is living in a fantasy world in which the girls will just go along and has no idea of the pain that they're about to feel. I hope when she sees that, she'll begin to reconsider, but we'll see.

BD

[saffie]

You asked earlier abou people's experiences of sharing the DB or DR bks with their partners. I can't remember exactly who said it in your posts but whoever it was hit the nail on the head when they said to do this only if your partner had re-invested in the relationship.

My H and I have recommitted and we have shared parts of the book (DR) relevant to us with each other. The section on infidelity is good at seeing it from both partners views we found.

Commitment to each other does appear to be a real issue when it comes to seeing profits from doing this though.

Saffie

[WAW in the OC]

Regarding the ebook, I'm interested. I have a few as well, we can trade. My email has my name, can you post yours and I can respond directly? If not, easy enough to get a gmail account.

H,

my email [e-mail]. Send me an e-mail and I will reply w/ the book. You can also send me one if you have a good one to share.

[Heimlich]

So, I was finally able to be the laid-back, funny guy I really am inside last night with my W. I worked late (well, I stayed in the office late. Since Sunday, I've been preoccupied with my W's desire to end our M so I was doing some aimless Web surfing because I didn't want to go home.).

I got home around 8:30. She had cooked dinner. It looked like things had been ready for awhile, but when I asked if she had waited for me she said, "No, I just finished." Whatever. We sat down and had a good, light conversation over dinner. I told her about some of the funnier moments of my recent time in LA (since we hadn't really spoken over the phone. I was/am proud of myself for not calling/emailing her like I had done the first 3 weeks I spend down home).

Since she cooked, I did the dishes (something we've done since we've been married, not a 180 or DBing technique there). We chit-chatted a bit. She then called me over. One of our cats was sitting in a ladderback chair and she was cracking up; he looked like he was in prison, especially when he poked his head through the slats. She then pointed out a beer in the fridge that she had saved for me to try (she discovered beer almost exactly a year ago. Dogfish Head rules!). While she says it's over, our friendship is still intact.

I had also noticed when I returned home that she had bought skim milk, whole wheat bread, yogurt (for breakfast smoothies), and some lunch meat -- all for me. We get along so well, and she does these kind things for me, but still says she wants our M to be over. I just thanked her for buying that stuff for me without her pointing it out. Again, this is a simple act of kindness to me that she did not have to do.

At any rate, we wished each other good night and she went up to bed and I to the basement. No hug or kiss and I refrained, unlike in the past, from using body language to finagle either from her.

She also asked me, out of habit, I guess, if there were any problems with her going to a b-day dinner with co-workers on Wed. I said no, I have my first dance lesson that night anyway. Have fun. I wasn't looking at her, but I heard a tiny "oh."

A question for everyone: I know that she wants to begin the D process. I told her on Sunday that I would appreciate it if we could hold off on that conversation for a few days. That I don't feel strong enough to have that yet. I really don't. Was that a mistake? Should I bring it up again or wait until she mentions it? She knows I don't want a D, but I almost think that at least asking her if she's ready to talk about it before she asks me would be a 180. Opinions?

Her bday is Thursday. I asked her before work if I could take her to dinner that evening. She got a panic-type look in her eye and said, "Yes" Then, "We'll see". I said that I really would like to take you out, but that if you're uncomfortable that's fine. There's a whole bday backstory from when she was a kid. Aunts/uncles always lumped her bday with a cousin, but focused on the cousin, not my W. My dumba$$ never picked up on this (I've never been big on bday celebrations for myself) and that my wife really wanted to feel special on her bday. If she were even semi-committed to the R, I would have thrown a silly bday party for just the two of us (some ballons, made a cake, hats and pin the tail on the donkey). I know that would be pressure, but I did want to acknowledge her bday (I forgot it -- stupid, stupid, stupid -- the year before last or last year, can't remmeber which).

BD

[limbo]

H, I just read your thread, and I don't have any wonderful words of wisdom to pass on, you seem to have got your head and your heart in the right place, and just keep doing what you are!
Thanks for your post! The are appreciated!

[Heimlich]

I hope I'm not grasping at straws here, but my W did say something positive today.

I cooked dinner for us tonight. Nothing major, marinaded some chicken and grilled it, black beans and some brown rice. Not part of DBing, something I've always done. We were just chit-chatting, talking about our days at work over dinner. Laughing a little. Kind of like things used to be. There was a bit of a lull, so I decided to go for it and ask her about the Attorney/Mediator she had called yesterday.

She looked a little surprised that I would bring it up. Something she's been saying for a while is that she's afraid I won't let her go. She's never said it, but I think she's worreid that I'm going to be a pain/baby (never my intent). Anyway, since neither of us has any ill-will toward the other, we're going the mediation route, so she was telling me about that.

When she paused, I said something to the effect of "Are you sure?" To which she kindof nodded and gave a little more detail. Once she wound down, I then said that I still think we could rebuild our relationship. That this will impact the girls in ways you can't imagine (first time I've ever brought that up). That I don't expect any guarantees, but that I would appreciate it if she would think about things a bit more while she's at her parents' next week. I briefly told her again that six weeks ago, we couldn't have fixed things, but that today I'm at a place where I can be the partner she deserves. I thanked her for listening and stopped (6 weeks ago, it would have turned into an hour long monologue).

Then, sometimes in the next few minutes, she said something interesting. I'd like to arrange the meeting with the mediator, but we can always cancel it. She has NEVER, since April 22, given any indication of flinching from getting divorced. I didn't say anything, but my heart did leap a bit.

I know, it may have been a slip of the tongue on her part. On the other hand, might be the first crack. Or, I might be on crack and desperate for any positive sign.

She also gave me a good hug before going to bed.

BD