The Plank is out of my eyes, but too late for WAW?

[saffie]

Hi H,

Have just been reading thro' your thread.

I was wondering - who is giving your wife support and advice at the moment? Especially with you being away so much.

Maybe the source of her support could be affecting her view of things; just a thought really.

Saffie

[Sara]

How did I convince him to go to Retrouvaille? I think the timing had a lot to do with it.

He took me to a restaurant for a talk about our relationship. Huge mistake. It blew up and got very loud and ugly. We both were so angry we could have hurt each other, but didn't. On the way back home we were both silent in the car. I was thinking I need to find a divorce lawyer. I suspect his thoughts were similar.

Then I said, "I've heard there's a program called Retrouvaille that helps people like us. I think we should go." There being no other suggestions, he said OK. I booked the first weekend I could. He never balked. And we went. It was a life-changing experience.

To look into the eyes of couples who had been through what we were experiencing and worse, and to see the love that they have for each other now was inspiring. From the start, I was thinking, if they can do it, why can't we? It was a slow process. It took about 6 months to feel confident that we will stay together because we are happy together. But we are here now and committed to each other in a way that we never were committed before.

It is so much better to see the good in another person, and love that goodness, than to see the bad and hate it. I used to spend all day thinking about what I hated about my husband. Those bad feelings fed on themselves and made me mean. Now I banish those thoughts, and replace it with the good. Where I used to grumble that he never helped around the house, now I just ask him nicely to help me, and he does. And I thank him for helping. We get along. It's all so simple, except it really isn't.

[Heimlich]

Sara, Saffie

Thanks for the thoughts. The W really isn't talking to anyone. She's close to both her Mom and Dad; both of whom want us to work things out and were floored both by the A and then a few months ago when my W said she was done. MIL has told me that my W just keeps saying she's finished; sometimes after talking about something fun that we've done together (trip to Rehobeth, going to see Riverdance, a couple of other things) and that the W had a good time doing. I found out she hasn't spoken to her Dad in a month on Friday when I dropped our girls off. He's disappointed in her and pushing her to try with me, which she doesn't want to hear. My Mom, who she has been close with for years, sent her an email (without my knowledge), but my W won't talk to her either. A friend of ours tried to call a few times to talk, but she won't return the call. More my friend than my W's, but still a friend to both of us (met her in grad school when moved into her group house with my best friend. They are now married and went through some ups and downs before squaring their M away. She just wanted to share and be a shoulder to lean on.) The only person she is speaking to that I know of is the receptionist at her office, who she has gotten to be friends with over the past two years. She's divorced and is giving her the "kids will be ok" talk. Sounds like her H was pretty crappy towards her. I've only met her once or twice. Other than that, she's relying on herself for these decisions.

Like she said earlier today, I tried for years. I'm tired of trying. I asked her if she felt she had totally committed to our R in Oct of last year. She said she gave it about 75% effort. I said I was giving it 100% effort, but blaming her and not taking any responsibility. I then asked what would happen, since I we're now being honest with each other, if we were to both give 100% at the same time. She just keeps saying she doesn't want to be married to me any longer. Kindof this giant circular reasoning. We can't work because I tried and that didn't work and you didn't give me what I needed (partly because she never told me) and that I don't have those feelings and they're gone.

Sara, thanks. I would love to go to Retrouvaille and think it would really help us. However, I tried to get her to go to a similar retreat this weekend and she wouldn't do it.

I've told her that I really do realize how my actions hurt her and that I am still very much in love with her.

At this point, there's not much I can do. I'm going to continue to improve myself and stop living scared and try new things (something I've not done for about 4 years). Dance lessons this Wed are the first step in that direction. I'll be there for her and do what I can, but it looks like we're heading for at least a S at this point.

Beyond what's in DB and DR, anyone have any suggestions for breaking through my W's wall?

BD

[Sara]

H-

It could be mid-life crisis, or it could be that she is still involved with another man. Usually, those intent on divorce and refusing to try are hiding an affair. They are in a rush to get on to their next relationship. There's a lot of information on this board about MLC. You could read it and see if it seems to fit.

[delia]

Heimlich--

I think that you've been doing well in your honest discussions with your wife. You've admitted guilt, listened carefully to what she has to tell you, and agreed with her--validating her feelings. This is all a core part of DB'ing, as I understand it.

But your wife doesn't trust the changes that you've made. That means that you're going to have to stay calm, allow her the space that she's asked for, and continue to work on yourself--as you mentioned earlier. It's very possible that she has doubts herself about divorce. Shutting out the people who she knows will push her towards restoring the marriage may be more a sign of wavering than a show of independence: as though she fears hearing the arguments of the other side. Remember, too, that with her family pushing her, you must be especially careful to treat her with kindness, and to respect her need for space. This might be a way of setting yourself apart from others. Try to be the totally accepting friend she can feel at ease with.

It might even help if you spoke to your in-laws about not putting pressure on your wife. Families being what they are--big grapevines--you probably only need to speak to one person. You might even honestly admit your own failings, and try to tactfully suggest that pressuring is having the opposite effect.

Breaking through the wall, in this case, is usually a long process. It's sort of like breaking through a wall with a dinner fork, or a piece of sandpaper. (Sorry! Don't mean to be discouraging. It's probably not THAT long a process). If you're a high-energy person, then you'll have to teach yourself patience.

If you can just get her to wonder whether divorce will really solve her problems--just plant that doubt--just get her wavering--then you will have a chance to stop this.

Try the book The Five Love Languages (I think that's the right title).

Read some of the success stories on this site.

Try to work through the inevitable feelings of discouragement. When you're around your wife, stay upbeat, listen more than you talk, and validate her feelings.

I think I'm starting to repeat myself--so I'll just wish you a good night! I think you're doing very well....

[Not Much Left]

H
Good stuff delia

[Heimlich]

Thanks, Delia, for the kind words.

I know, I know. Patience. It's just so damn hard -- sorry, everyone, for my mastery of the obvious on that one.

That's a great analogy, breaking down a wall with a dinner fork. Further, right now it feels like I'm using one of those rubberized baby spoons. I guess what DBing is about is undermining that wall with unstinting love and kindness and not attacking it head on.

I have spoken to her Mom. Rightly, she's accepting of whatever my W wants, but she's also told my W that she should keep trying. I've asked her not to push, but to gently nudge her, when possible, toward giving us another chance. She flies down to LA next Saturday, so maybe her stance will soften over that time. I don't know. I did tell the MIL that I finally really understood my role in our relationship. She was appreciative and even said before I left to drive home Sat. that she still thinks there's no reason for us not to try to work things out. My fingers are crossed that they'll have a heart to heart and change my W's feelings to at least give it another go.

I told her ILY before she left for work today. I have got to stop doing that. She was angry as she walked out the door a few minutes ago. She's going to call a lawyer today. I think she makes herself angry at me so that she can make that call.

Sara, No. I don't think she's seeing anyone else. I will check out the MLC area this evening though. Hadn't really thought of that. Thanks.

I sympathize with you too C_K. I've focused on my W and girls more than myself in the past few years. I truly am/was happy being her H and their daddy. I do like to get out and do things, but I've stopped trying new things for a while. Time to get out of my comfort zone, primarily for me, but also to show the W that I am capable of growing.

BD

[Heimlich]

Oh, and, Delia or anyone, regarding planting the seeds of doubt that D is the right answer, what are your thoughts on asking her to read the first chapter of DR? Is that pushing or could it plant a seed? I'm torn.

On the one hand, she doesn't see anything but her need to leave right now. On the other, I don't think she's ever looked at anything that talked about the effect on the children, the ideas about follow-on relationships, and stated that things can get better, but that it's not a quick and easy fix.

[WAW in the OC]

She just keeps saying she doesn't want to be married to me any longer. Kindof this giant circular reasoning. We can't work because I tried and that didn't work and you didn't give me what I needed (partly because she never told me) and that I don't have those feelings and they're gone.
BD

H,

I am currently in your position. My W of 16 1/2 yrs is currently having an A w/ OM and refuses to break it off. Her siblings and parents had a "family meeting" where they asked her about A and she didn't answer their questions. She is guilty and ashamed. Your W sounds like she may still be carrying on the A, I'm sorry to say. My W said the exact same thing. She wants D and doesnt' want to work on M. After she said that she consumated the A w/ OM at a weekend away w/ him. I hope this isn't the case w/ your W.

In terms of what you can do, if you do want to save the M I have a great book called "Stop your Divorce". I've given it to a few other people on this board and have used some techniques myself. It helps fill in some of the gaps DR doesn't. If you'd like I could e-mail you a copy. It's only 100 pages and easy reading. The publisher is the only one selling it and it's $80! If you want me to send you a copy let me know.

[SunnySeason]

Hi BD,

I've been following your thread, just haven't had time to pop in on you.

Delia has an incredible ability to provide just the right analogy
to fit, & the tearing down a wall w/ a fork is a good one.
In our ever shifting state however, it does kinda feel like the baby spoon at times.

I know someone would have jumped in on the having the W read the books, etc., since I'm here now I'll urge you not to do that.
There are those on this board who have done so & regretted it.
It's like providing them w/your play book w/the end result usually being that they will see it as pressure, & also think they're being manipulated by your "new changes" in behavior.

I have to head out the door quickly, so I'll be back to you when I have more time.

Hang in there. Reading some of the other threads, such as CVA's, Nomopo's & Tyler's, will help greatly IMO. Especially the posts from WAW's on their threads, it'll give you an outlook from their side.

Best,

Sunny