Crushed but moving on

[swashy]

Unconditional love Ian. That is what I wrote in my letter and this what I will deliver. Together or apart. If she continues with OM (which I get the feeling she is), I will just need to accept that. Just as she will need to accept me moving on with someone else. What's done is done. Getting angry and resentful does me NO good.

And you know what Ian...I think rising above all of this and reacting with love instead of anger is a wonderful lesson for my kids.

Do I think she has made some horrible choices? Of course. But I don't need to hold them over her head either. Just as I would hope that she wouldn't hold my past mistakes over my head. I don't see how doing that helps either of us.

[Kman]

Hey Scott-
Don't get me wrong - I am a firm believer in that (for most of us) it took both the WAS and the LBS to create a bad marriage - no argument there. So sure, if you were an angry person for many years, that was something you contributed to the demise of the M. But HER fault in that (in this particular instance) was not addressing it and making a stronger stand to you on correcting that behavior. How do you fix something if you don't realize it's broken? That's how most of us got here.

However, it was her CHOICE to go outside the marriage and go against her vows, promises, etc. as a means of escaping the problem. We're all adults and in control of our actions, that includes your W.

So I guess my point is, yes - you AND W had to work TOGETHER to create this M, as well as to allow it to get it where it is today. But after a certain point, she made certain CHOICES that fall on her and her alone. the A is one of those things, and I just don't believe there's anything that justifies it.

Kev

[sofaraway]

Unconditional love Ian. That is what I wrote in my letter and this what I will deliver. Together or apart. If she continues with OM (which I get the feeling she is), I will just need to accept that. Just as she will need to accept me moving on with someone else. What's done is done. Getting angry and resentful does me NO good.

And you know what Ian...I think rising above all of this and reacting with love instead of anger is a wonderful lesson for my kids.

Do I think she has made some horrible choices? Of course. But I don't need to hold them over her head either. Just as I would hope that she wouldn't hold my past mistakes over my head. I don't see how doing that helps either of us.

Understood, but unconditional love does not mean DOORMAT, or not feeling hurt, anger, and pain.

What unconditional love means is being strong enough to let them go. To let them go and not have to feel the need to "be there for them".

You know what, I wonder about your self esteem sometimes. You post all this stuff, but I wonder wether you are more important to you or she is?

I am not telling you to hate her or resent her, it's not black and white. You can be loving without being there. Supporting bad behavior is not being unconditionally loving. In fact, unconditional love means that you are not afraid to treat her the way she deserves to be treated for her choices.

We will probably not agree on this right now because you are in the middle of it and I am on the outside looking in. I have already told you that I will be here for you no matter what you decide to do. But damn it, I will sure as hell not stand by and not tell you my feelings on it whether you agree with them or not. Do you know why? Becuase I do love you unconditionally.

Ian

[swashy]

Kev, understood...but my anger and my behavior was also MY CHOICE. We both made poor choices.


Ian - I'm not saying that I'm going to sit here like a puppy dog. What I'm saying is that, I will not let her choices make me angry any more. I want to be detached and rise above it. If she wants to continue on with OM...that is her choice. I refuse to let that make me angry. I'm tired of being angry. She can do whatever she wants to do. Not my problem. I will still treat her with love because that is how I want to treat her.

I'm also not saying that I will stuff my true feeling down in a hole somewhere. I fully realize that I will go through times of saddness and probably anger. How could I not? I just don't want those emotions running MY life anymore. I've had enough of that. I know I have a right to be angry, I know I have a right to be sad....but I just don't want to be. I want to live my life with love and acceptance. If she needs to divorce me, I'll accept that. If she needs to run off with OM, I will accept that. I'm not going to try and control her and tell her what she is doing wrong. She is a big girl and if she makes poor choices, she will sooner or later have to face those choices. You can't run away from yourself. But I do not need to shove her nose in it. Because I know I don't need her shoving my nose in poor choices.

[swashy]

If Tyson, Ian, Kev, Julie, Shoe, or I lied to you day in and out, with both of us knowing full well we were lying, and if we manipulated you and blamed you every day for all of our failings, would you talk to us as much as you do?

Yes because I love you guys. I know that sounds crazy but I know you are all good people at heart and I would want to answer that behavior with love.

Something you and Ian both sent home for me when I had my little meltdown two weeks ago . . . ask yourself:

What kind of friendship, in comparison with your other friends, do you really have?

Honestly? Not much. But it will not get any better if I treat her with anger and resentment.

[Kman]

Scott-

You're right when you say that you don't want to hold stuff over each other's heads forever, because what's the point. But here's the thing. The stuff that got your M to where it was was UNINTENTIONAL. Obviously when we get married we don't INTEND for it to end in divorce, so the mistakes we make are just that - mistakes.

In my case, one of my mistakes was bottling up how I felt too much - I've always been somewhat of a private person, one who "holds his cards close to his chest." I didn't want to bother others with my problems, and figured I'd deal with them myself. I didn't realize that it was also shutting my W out and adding to our communication problems. BUT...she did plenty to contribute to the problems as well. The difference is that I've acknowledged my responsibility in it and am trying to work on those things. She really hasn't tried to do that at this point.

Now, here's the key thing. there are things that unintentionally bring about the demise of an M, over time. But an affair, is a CONSCIOUS CHOICE. In addition, choosing to give up on the marriage is a CONSCIOUS CHOICE. She hasn't given you a say in these things, although certainly they've affected or involve you. This releases you from certain obligations my friend. Treat her as the mother of your children and as any decent person would treat another, but she doesn't deserve much more than that, IMO.

My point is that I don't believe that something like, for instance, your anger and yelling was a CHOICE; it's simply who you were at that time. You identified that as something or someone you didn't want to be, and worked pretty successfully to change and improve that part of you.

But when it comes to things that are truly conscious choices, i.e. "I don't want to work on this marriage any more," it's not forgiveable, and as Cori said, it's not what friends, much less spouses, do to one another.

Don't hold anger towards her; that's something you don't deserve to do to yourself. But your true friendship is not something SHE deserves either.

[sofaraway]

I'm gonna finish with this post and then I am done with this convo for a while. It needs time to sink in.

No one is telling you to hate her or do mean things. That is not my point.

Every decision you make about relationships, with a woman, a friend, family, enemy, is driven by emotions. You make your decisions based on those emotions. It is not allowing emotion to run your life, it is using emotions to help you make choices.

I clearl understand how you work with all that we have been through together. I can clearly see that you are going on a I am a better person that that kick right now to keep from going off, I respect that. Bottom line though, tell yourself all you want that you won't hold stuff over her, you will. You will remember what she has done, just as she remembers what you did. It's just reality.

Just try not to wrap yourself up to much in having to be perfect scott, your not. Deal with it. You, in time, will realize what I am meaning by all of this and understand it better when you are in a different place than you are today.

I will be out of pocket for the next ten days as you know. Take care of yourself while I am gone my friend. You will be in my thoughts and prayers while I am gone.

Ian

[swashy]

Ok guys...really appreciate all the input. I do need to get back to work here. But let me respond.

Speed...yup..sounds like unconditional love to me. I understand I don't need to get any closer that I want. And there may be times I can't emotionally be close to her. I get that. I will still do what is right for me. I don't intend to stand there with a smile on my face while my heart is breaking. If I need to step away, that is what I will do.

Kev...Not sure I agree with you. Her A was something that grew over time and was something she fought pretty hard. I was being a d!ck and she made a new friend...over years that friendship grew into something else. Could she have chosen to stop it and tell me what was going on? Of course. But I do not think it is something she deliberately went out and did. No more than I deliberately went out and acted like d!ck. And I could have chosen to stop my behavior too.

And, btw, you sound a lot like my W. Want her number!?!? HA!

Has she acknowledged her mistakes. A little bit...but not nearly enough. I think she is well aware of them however. At some point she will come to terms with them. Being a private, non confrontation person...I'm not holding my breath for a well thought out apology. I've gotten a couple of "Scott I'm sorry's" over the months...but obviously her actions deserve more than that. I've certainly owned up to mine. To the point where she told me she didn't want to hear it anymore. I would like her to do that so that I can get some closure...but I can't expect that I'll ever get that from her.

[S_O_T_S]

Hi swashy.

So my thoughts of skyrockets in flight are temporarily suspended for a good cause.... As always (you know the drill....)

And you also know that I'm not the type to come in, guns blazing and whacking the 2x4 in all directions. How about some gentle nudges? They seem to help, sometimes, as my friend tgh might attest.

Just saying you don't know until you are in those shoes. Let's put it this way, I'm willing to forgive the A and move forward but she is unable to move forward from the yelling.

Ooooh, boy. Whether this is simply contextual misunderstanding on my part or what, I don't know.

But the phrasing of this seems.... odd?

Forgive the person, not the act.

And you, of course realize that you have absolutely no control over her choice to forgive, or the timetable for it.

And I refuse to think that she doesn't WANT to save her M.

Interesting that you choose this phrasing too, since I literally just had the same conversation w/ someone else about my own refusals. Just believe this. While you may believe this, the reality of what she wants/thinks is completely unknown to you, and may be far different from what you'd like to believe. That said, there can be very good reasons for self-denial like this.... What's yours?

She is dealing with a lot of guilt for it - i know that.

You know what? They seem to get over it pretty fast.... Funny how another dude in the picture can slap a bandaid over a lot of hurt... I know full well my W spent the first 3 days away in her parents house, in bed, bawling her eyes out. She sure as hell wasn't crying over any hurt caused to me, though...

So the hurt must be pretty damn bad. I did a lot of damage.

Or, she allowed her own self-hurt, and old hurts to come out and used the small-medium hurt you inflicted to become the cause of all of it. And of course, she chose not to let you in on any of it. So allowed the damage to happen.

Unconditional love Ian.

And the cost to you will end up being?

Indifference. That's what must be the target here. She is the master of her fate and the captain of her soul. She alone is responsible for her actions, from here on out. You have to treat her as the mother of your kids; civil. Not as friends. Not lovingly.

People who love each other don't do what she has done to you. Neither do people who are friends.

But in both those cases, those same people do get angry at the other person and yell.

Getting angry and resentful does me NO good.

au contraire, mon frere.

Getting angry/resentful does a world of good. Staying angry/resentful, however, does not.

Remember this, anger is a reasonable response to injustice and/or wrongdoing. Not letting go of anger is the unhealthy part.

I think rising above all of this and reacting with love instead of anger is a wonderful lesson for my kids.

Not if they learn it's not OK to be angry.

Not if they think it's acceptable to be a doormat when injustice is perpetrated.

You may intend a noble lesson, but who's to say how they'll receive it? Believe me, I would be a rich man if I had $1 for each lesson my Dad gave me where I actually took away the opposite of what he intended...

But I don't need to hold them over her head either. Just as I would hope that she wouldn't hold my past mistakes over my head. I don't see how doing that helps either of us.

Forgive the person, not the act.

my anger and my behavior was also MY CHOICE.

And you will forgive yourself for your choice, when exactly? I think you have, but sometimes I'm not so sure...

Not my problem. I will still treat her with love because that is how I want to treat her.

Indifference. Maybe love isn't the word you want? How about like?

I understand where you're coming from in all of this, I do. Go back and reread my own words from a few weeks ago. How I couldn't imagine not loving my XW, yada, yada, yada.

But one day I asked myself, why is she WORTH loving anymore? Why should I love someone who doesn't love me right back? There's no basis for love there. Only dependency, or martyrdom or????

I'm not going to try and control her and tell her what she is doing wrong.

And maybe, from her POV, it isn't even wrong at all. Morally bankrupt? Certainly. But it may well be the exact right choice for her, no matter how much we'd like to believe otherwise.

You can't run away from yourself.

No, and she may or may not discover this truth for herself. As I've been telling someone offline... you can lead the horse, but...

Because I know I don't need her shoving my nose in poor choices.

You don't seem to need anyone else to do that one for you, do you? Takes one to know one.

I would want to answer that behavior with love.

Well, I guess everyone has their own line to cross before becoming a spineless doormat. But, as a former spineless doormat, I'd simply say that we are our own worst judges of when we're engaging in spineless doormat-ness.

Honestly? Not much. But it will not get any better if I treat her with anger and resentment.

I didn't realize that complete, unconditional love vs. anger/resentment were the only options here. Are they?

Take care, and if need be, we can continue this live or offline; just remember I'll be dreaming about the skyrockets....

[osu43130]

Scott,
I just deleted a novel I wrote to you and I am starting over.

Not sure I agree with you. Her A was something that grew over time and was something she fought pretty hard.

Guess it is alright for an affair to occur as long as it grows over time and the person that commits adultury fights pretty hard to avoid it from happening....WTF SCOTT Come on now.....

over years that friendship grew into something else

She can explain that one to God.

But I do not think it is something she deliberately went out and did.

Never is but as you said she is a big girl and wheres big girl panties. She knows what is right and wrong. She needs to own up to it and stop with the damn excuses. They are like a$$holes everyone has one some are just bigger than others.

And I could have chosen to stop my behavior too.

And you did and "man'ed up' to your own mistakes as well as took the proper path to correct them. Did she? Come on now.

No as far as you go and the relationship with your XW.

Yes you love her we all love our X's or WAW's to a point. Yes you want a freindship with her. Yes you want to continue to improve that relatioship.

Guess what it has now become a buisness. She is your coworker and you are CO_PARENTING. Not a close friend not a best friend not your Wife. It is all buisness now. You are a great father and your kids will always look up to you for the fight that you put up to save the family and your marriage. But we can not win at everything....(UNLESS YOUR NAME IS BEN... ;)).

You have one several fights just lost the battle for you marriage. You won the most important fights and came out of it with your head held high with no regrets. You are a strong man Scott and you need to keep it that way.

I'll be around slapping people today,
Later,
Ben