Wow seattle old friend! Glad you stopped to update us. I really miss the days of chatting with you and the rest of these wonderful people on these threads, I like you have been just finding myself in my newfound single role, making new friends and reuniting with some old ones as well. In a different way its fun. I miss the companionship and coming home to a face I new, but cant have that so no sence dwelling on what we cant have.
I see in you some of the same things I see in myself, So many people who go thru a D are so bitter. You seem to have found so mabny answers to the issues you understand this has little to do with yourself and much to do with the chemistry of the R as well as your W inability to face up to the challange that you dont seem bitter. I think this BB is great for that, helps us heal in a graceful way that we see so many others in our shoes, we all helped each other heal in a wayn that let out the bitterness and contemp for the opposing sex. I know I still enjoy a womans company and I feel free. I think I like it. God Bless and good luck no matter what way you W finally ends up turning. Hold your coarse and let her make the moves, Eddy
Eddy - Thanks for the words of encouragement old friend. I'm with you on the healing and feeling good part. For the most part, I feel great. I'm happy with myself and I see the same for you. It is a true testament to how far we have grown as people.
Betsey - I've missed you too! You always ask the tough questions. Questions that make me think. I have the answers, but they may be difficult to implement and adhere to.
It became clear to me last night what I think she wants, at least what my intuition is telling me now. The question is do I come straight out and ask her what the heck she wants and what the purpose of last night was? This is where I'm confused. Is this pressure or clearly communicating, or both?
She has sent me 2 "notes" last week. One that said the stuff above about how our lives and friendship was so precious to her. That same note she mentions somthing about an advisor she met, and that WE should meet with the advisor because the advisor had a lot of good ideas, similar to my ideas (business) we've talked about in the past. She signs off with I'll talk to you soon! Another note came 2 days later, forwarding a statement that didn't need to be forwarded.
I called her on Monday and asked if we could set aside some time to talk after work because it is hard for her at work (because she cries). She was in a upbeat mood, said "sure" and offered up Tuesday night after dinner with her father(in the past she has refused to talk to me or see me on Tuesday, "her only day off"). WTF??
I agreed to that time. My intent was to talk on the phone and ask her about meeting with the advisor and what she meant by that (like why should WE meet with the advisor, you know?). But she was eager to meet in person.
I'm a little confused as to why but I agree wondering what she has to say. I'm willing to listen. I show up and for 2 hrs we talk about nothing. Chit chat. She was definitely more engaging than I, but I was engaging at times as well. I waited for her to bring up any topics about papers, her feelings, whatever. Nothing except some references to the lives of some of her 40+ clients (some married, some not, some with children, etc) and how they are happy with the choices they made. She did say that unpacking was very hard.
My intuition tells me this is her idea of a friendship going forward. An hour or two once a month or so. This is her attempt at rebuilding our friendship. She of course has a variety of feelings still, but unsure what they are.
If I go along this path with her will this lead to further warm and fuzzies, enough for her to attempt reconciliation? Not sure.
I'm willing to be her friend only on my terms. That is what is good for me right now. The first term is her not seeing OM. I can't support that and I won't support her while she is seeing him. The second term is her being recognizing her part in this and efforts to attempt to reconcile.
Beyond that I don't want anything to do with her. That is how I feel given how I've been treated and my sincere attempts to improve have been treated. Do I come right out and tell her my terms or not?
If I do, is this too much too fast? Pressure I mean? My intuition and experience tells me yes? Opinions?
Although this is how I would like to be communicated with, I'm reminded of the 5LL. This may not be the most "effective" way to communicate with her. Is this a gender thing?
It really may be best to let this naturally take its course and not bring it up. If she makes another attempt at her idea of friendship, then decide how to respond?
That is the part I get confused on. This feeble attempt at friendship may be the first step on the path at reconnecting/reconciliation. But that is not enough for me right now.
I am tired of the craziness. I want this behind me and not have to deal with the energy drain.
If she were to commit to reconciling and working on our relationship I would consider it.
I don't want to enable her to continue on this path. She can no longer have it both ways.
Do I sound like a WA?
I'm looking to you all to share your experiences.
Has your WA come right out and said they want to reconcile?
How much of being friends on their terms was needed for that?
Did you ever outline what is acceptable to you? Offered up choices for them that were acceptable to you too?
Quote: When she says all this hooey about not believing in marriage or not wanting another R, how do you respond?
She actually said she didn't believe in Love or Marriage anymore.
Not that she didn't want an R anymore. So I guess that means she can have loveless Rs that she also calls friends. Isn't this what Sex and the City and the whole girl genre has encouraged? So many people believe this now, it is very sad to me.
My response was "You are such a sweet person, I hate to think this process has changed your beliefs. That has always been one of your core beliefs and what you've always wanted, love, marriage, children."
She then changed her statement and said she still believes in them, she just won't be as "gung ho" on it. Maybe that means she is not willing to give her heart as much? Very sad.
She is such a master of avoidance she actually tries to change her core beliefs to cover up the pain. She is not alone in this world, she has found many people to support her on this and somehow actually attracts them.
Do I validate this crap and say I can understand how you can feel this way after all you've been through?
Do I stop there or actually point out the avoidance?
I posted to you a few times in the past. I used to be RodeoWidow. I changed my name because I am no longer a Rodeo Widow.
H and I have been back together since the end of December. My H attempted reconciling 3 times before I finally was willing to try. The first time was the day after he had a one night stand. I did not know what had happened at the time (I found out a month ago). ( This was on November 16. We had been seperated yet living in the same house since the end of August) All I saw was that H was acting weird and was trying to talk to me like nothing had happened. I did not know what the motivation was and the sudden change in his demeanor scared me. I was friendly but kept my distance. The day after Thanksgiving H starts talking to me even more. Following me through the house talking to me. Desperately trying to engage me in conversation. I still had no idea what was going on so I just kept doing what I was doing. The first week of December H tells me he thinks that the dogs need to sleep upstairs because it is cold in the basement. I tell him I am not letting them sleep upstairs because they keep running from room to room because they are confused as to why H is sleeping in the other bedroom. H says OK I will sleep in the bed with you. This totally freaked me out. He still hadn't said anything about reconciling. He came back to the bed. It lasted 3 days before I had a backslide due to lack of sleep and demanded to know what the heck he wanted from me. H then moved back to the other room. On Christmas Eve H asked me to go to the casino with him. We had fun but still no mention of what he wants. The day after Christmas H comes to me and says I want to make our M work but I am afraid that nothing will change and we will go back to fighting all the time. It took that for me to start working on our M. I had to know what he wanted. I needed to know that he saw a problem with our old M. I couldn't just suddenly act like nothing had happened. Something had happened, we almost got divorced.
Once we started piecing it took months for us to discuss the issues that led to the bomb. We were in a good place when I discovered the ONS. I suspected that something happened that night and never wanted to believe it. Having it confirmed ripped my heart out. H and I are now trying to DB are way past this. The good thing is I now have H to comfort me when I cry and to reassure me that he won't leave or do anything like that again.
It took my H a long time to work up the courage to tell me he wanted to try again. He was hinting all around it but actually saying it out loud to me was hard for him. I see positives in your W. She is waffling like my H did. She may want to reconcile but is afraid that she is making a mistake and doesn't want to get hurt again.
The only advice I can give is keep doing what you are doing and give it time. I think in a way H came back on my terms. I didn't jump all over the chance to reconcile the first few times he tried. I think if I would have come running the first time he tried that nothing would have changed. We would have went back to our old M and I never wanted to go back there again.
My H also told me he no longer believed in love and marriage when we were separated. He told me when we got a D he would never be involved in another R. That there was just too much crap to put up with. He said from then on out it was one night stands for him. Then he had one and suddenly he wanted to be married again. WAS don't know what they want. All they know is that they are unhappy and it must be the M that is causing their unhappiness
At the risk of creating more conflict, I'm a little unsure of something here...
Quote: I'm willing to be her friend only on my terms. That is what is good for me right now. The first term is her not seeing OM. I can't support that and I won't support her while she is seeing him. The second term is her being recognizing her part in this and efforts to attempt to reconcile.
Do you mean a couple hoping to reconcile by starting out as friends or simply friends?
Just need some clarification...
Uh, do you mind if I steer clear of Irish pubs in Seattle for awhile? That was my once-in-a-decade fiasco, and although I LOVE Irish pubs, I'm not normally one whose name is on the marquee as a warning to others...
Ugh! Not one of my better moments, and believe it or not, I still feel ashamed at that. I have probably had 2 beers since that night, though I will admit to having a few more glasses of scotch...
Big hugs coming your way too!
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Quote: My intuition tells me this is her idea of a friendship going forward. An hour or two once a month or so. This is her attempt at rebuilding our friendship. She of course has a variety of feelings still, but unsure what they are. If I go along this path with her will this lead to further warm and fuzzies, enough for her to attempt reconciliation? Not sure. I'm willing to be her friend only on my terms. That is what is good for me right now. The first term is her not seeing OM. I can't support that and I won't support her while she is seeing him. The second term is her being recognizing her part in this and efforts to attempt to reconcile. Beyond that I don't want anything to do with her. That is how I feel given how I've been treated and my sincere attempts to improve have been treated.
Could have written this myself, Seattle.
I understand what you mean about having terms for friendship and conflicts with the OP situation. Friendship is a two-way street and has requirements, as people so frequently remind me over on my thread. You've got every right to define what that means to you and uphold the bar where you need it to be.
Betsey raises a good question, too.
Quote: Although this is how I would like to be communicated with, I'm reminded of the 5LL. This may not be the most "effective" way to communicate with her. Is this a gender thing?
It might not be the most effective with her, you're right. But I don't think it's a gender thing (or perhaps I just need to switch genders?)... it's an individual thing.
Hello there Mr. spandex #2!! Glad to hear from you. It's so wonderful that you've been on a journey to heal and find yourself. I have been on that journey too and it does feel wonderful! Thanks for visiting me, I've missed you and thought of you often.
Sounds like a lot going on. I'm not sure how to interpret but I would think it is wise to not "ask" her for things. You know how that turned out in the past. My 2 cents would be to let it happen slowly. If she is coming out of her hole then she needs to do it on her terms and then meet your terms. Like Betsey said, if you're willing to wait.
Yeah it's crazy and it's not fair but I don't see why you would have to change your current ways. I mean, continue to move forward w/yourself and your newfound friends and hobbies and fit her into your schedule as it comes up. So, you go through the D; no reason you can't reconcile later if it happened that way, right? I mean that's how I'm looking at mine.
You said it, people change. I believe there's something to this whole process for us and those that awaken the WAS eventually to come back. It's a sort of wake up call for all of us-them too. As it's been said before, if it comes to a reconciliation, it can be the best thing that ever happened to your M. But that's your choice. I wouldn't rush into anything and keep doin what you've been doin.
Thanks for bringing us up to date. Take care. Talk soon. Tootles..........................
Betsey - to answer your question, to be a friend in my definition of the word. it doesn't mean it would have to have "hopes of reconciliation" attached to it. it just means i'm not going to be her friend when it is one sided and a fair weather friendship on her terms and when she can fit me into her life. i will not accept anything less than what i want, if she can't provide that then i guess we won't be friends, we'll be somthing else in my mind. acquaintences or whatever that may be. it is about me now and what is good for me. any thoughts from anyone?
Betsey, Wonder, Karen and everyone else, thanks for being good friends and helping me through this process. Its been really theraputic.
Karen - I totally agree with you. I'm not doing anything really anymore. I'm not even really wanting to respond when she initiates contact, but I usually do at some point, just not jumping at the chance at all. my responses have been casual, no pressure, but caring and validating. its really tough when i have no desire to really spend my time listening to her brainwashed words.
thats where this whole friend thing is tough for me. beyond the fair weather one sidedness, i really don't have any interest in "being there" for her on her terms and then when i am, i'm not really interested in most of the things she has to say. some stuff yes, but mostly no. so what do i get out of it? why should i continue being there for her, being her friend?
God Bless and good luck no matter what way you W finally ends up turning. Hold your coarse and let her make the moves, Eddy 
Not one of my better moments, and believe it or not, I still feel ashamed at that. I have probably had 2 beers since that night, though I will admit to having a few more glasses of scotch... 
Betsey