Seattle your finger must be feeling better. Good to see your back at it. Sounds like we are in a simular boat. Why do they insist on moving on when they see our efforts? Mine even went as far as to ask where is the unconditional love. I was shocked to say the least. I am only sad for you Seattle, You have really poured your heart and soul into being the man for her and showing her your love through actions as well as words. Your good to the bone and you will always know in your heart you gave it your all no matter how this goes. Dont worry about going dark early on. How were you to know? The important thing is that you tryed your ass off to save your marriage for her. I never really went completly dark. I screwed up in the beginning by pursueing and being to dependant on her. I never found DR until I was 1 year into it. But in alot of ways I was already DBing, the book just gave me a sense of direction to put it all together. Your doing great, give it time and take care of you while just keeping on showing her unconditional love. Time I think is the number one remedy to there pain. The idea is to not damage your future with her in the mean time. By taking care of you your not dwelling on the uncontrolable. Live with your self and be the happiest person you can be. You will have to do this anyway if it doesnt work out, who knows maybe she will see your love of yopurself and her and want to be with you in the long run. Time... God Bless, Eddy
Seattle, good to see you can type again. And I'm glad to see you appear to be focusing on taking care of yourself. Whatever happens, we need to take care of ourselves, we need to respect ourselves, we need to love ourselves in order to do the same for our S.
Quote: Could it be she felt she was getting too close and was vulnerable again? Maybe so.
Yes, this seems to be the pattern with almost every WAS.
Quote: I deserve to be treated better than this.
Yes you do. You have behaved with kindness and patience and love and respect without expecting it in return, and that is the best we can do. And I think you realize now that you deserve these things too, and you do.
Quote: I’m not giving up, I will continue to be her friend, be emotionally available, but not to the same extent as before. I will place myself first, my happiness first, my needs first. I will give to her only what I’m comfortable giving which isn’t much right now.
I'm glad you're not giving up. I think there's still time before the fat lady acutally utters any music. This is only semantics I'm picking at here, but I would only change "giving what you're comfortable with" to "giving what you can." Just as DBing is not about straining ourselves beyond our capabilities, beyond our well being, it can also be more than doing what we're comfortable with. To me at least, it is important to my personal growth to push my comfort levels now and then, so I don't grow compalcent, so I don't slip back into my old behavior.
Quote: I will be happy being me
Promise yourself this.
Best,
Renew
...otherwise known as Chandler in RWB rockstar spandex
((((((Seattle)))))))))) Just wanted to drop a quick note to say that I'm thinking of you. I think I saw on another post that a bunch of us seem to be hitting the same cycle here. I know that it will turn out okay for any of us regardless of the outcome but I know that each of us would like it to be to keep the R. Whichever way, I know that we will all be winners. This BB has really grown some strong people and a lot of mouthy ones too!! LOL
Take care. Thinking of you. Tootles.........
p.s. Thanks for your post. I'm still pondering it but you men are just so TOUGH w/pride.
Chandler--uh, I mean Renew--what an insightful post! I knew by moving in with Joey (otherwise known as spandex clad Seattle), you'd be able to give him some positive feedback.
I still don't see the fat lady... do you?
But I'll see you this weekend, Joey. Be good until then, would ya?
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Glad to see you back, and glad to see you wondering about what it is YOU need in the midst of all of this. You can't ask for what you want... of your W or yourself... until you have really given it that thought that you so clearly are doing now.
Quote: I'm glad to see you appear to be focusing on taking care of yourself. Whatever happens, we need to take care of ourselves, we need to respect ourselves, we need to love ourselves in order to do the same for our S.
I'm with Renew here. In fact, Renew's post and Karen (insightful woman she is!) echoed my thoughts too.
Your posts were really heartfelt and thought-provoking. Read them again whenever you question whether you have gained perspective.
I know we women often prescribe buying lingerie in these situations... does wonders... but I am not sure what it is that the guys prescribe. Whatever that is, make sure you go out and do it!
I'm still of the mind that perhaps what your W needs most right now is some space. Take good care of you!
Yes, my finger is feeling better. I can now type, hooray, hooray!! I saw the doctor for a checkup and he told me the nurses thought I was cute. They were asking if I was single, they wanted to set me up with some friends. That really helped boost the ole PMA!! You should see these nurses, 6ft blonde model types, as well as most of his patients. Oooh lala! Doctor specializes in plastic surgery and hand surgery.
Eddy, thank you for your kind words, you always have a way of pointing out why I’m here and what I’m doing this all for. Be a better Me and be good to her and everyone around me. As with your W, mine continues to reach deep throughout our history for “reasons” of why she does what she does, like yours with the unconditional love reason. The FACT is, all of the reasons she has given me are no longer valid, as I know yours is as well. They are no longer reasons to me, they are EXCUSES that are a moving target. No matter what I try to do to address them, she finds another one. It is like swimming in the ocean trying to catch a fish with your bare hands. I have been trying to save this marriage for the both of us, deep in my heart I know she really has doubts and is scared to try again. I don’t think you screwed up at all, “going dark” should rarely be used, only as LRT IMHO. Time does help to heal, but in my case, time has also helped to drive us apart into “different worlds” as she put it. Not damage my future with her? I really might have screwed this one up royally last night, but maybe not, it remains to be seen. I will focus on myself and not dwell on what I can’t control and be the happiest person I can be. I did catch her asking me a few details about my life and watching me during our time together last night. Hmmm.
Renew, yes lately I have not done much for me at all. Just focusing all my energy on her and how I can accommodate her wants and needs. This has been SO DIFFICULT since she does not communicate with me. I have decided this is impossible. I can’t be proactive because I can’t guess what she is thinking, I can only be reactive to when she reaches out. Your statements
“ This is only semantics I'm picking at here, but I would only change "giving what you're comfortable with" to "giving what you can." Just as DBing is not about straining ourselves beyond our capabilities, beyond our well being, it can also be more than doing what we're comfortable with. To me at least, it is important to my personal growth to push my comfort levels now and then, so I don't grow compalcent, so I don't slip back into my old behavior.” I REALLY appreciate, and I mean it. I like to be challenged in my thinking that way I gain fresh perspective and it allows me to reflect on if I’m making the right choices for me.
I had adopted your suggestion since the beginning. I have pushed myself way beyond my comfort zone only to be stonewalled again and again and again and again. I may consider this again in the future, after all I try to bring a fresh perspective every day, but also acknowledging where we are today. Right now, it will be in my comfort zone. For the time being, that is all I can do.
Karen, thanks for the hugs and stopping by! I like all of your insights, they are very helpful. As we were all discussing late last night with the DR crowd, men only appear to be tough with pride, we are actually very frail and have soft hearts. We are propped up with superiority complexes covering inferiority complexes. As I observed, the louder and more obnoxious the man, the smaller the penis (reality or metaphorically for sense of self worth).
Betsey, you are awesome too!
Wonder, thank you for the hugs. I really like your persepctives, they are so helpful! I hope my posts are insightful into the way she is thinking and not just what I think she is thinking, if that makes sense. I just don’t know since she won’t even give us the time to communicate. Another thing that came up with the DR crowd is that I really think it is tough for us men that are committed to DR. Not that it isn’t tough for women too, but our needs are so much more primal and easier to understand? Please don’t punch me for this ladies. Perhaps you are right, she does need space. She will be leaving out of town for one week so no worries there.
OK Seattle, how do you think you screwed things up with W during your time together? My guess is you didn't. Watching and questions on her part show she is thinking things she's not sharing, IMHO.
Quote: The FACT is, all of the reasons she has given me are no longer valid, as I know yours is as well. They are no longer reasons to me, they are EXCUSES that are a moving target. No matter what I try to do to address them, she finds another one. It is like swimming in the ocean trying to catch a fish with your bare hands. I have been trying to save this marriage for the both of us, deep in my heart I know she really has doubts and is scared to try again.
I can completely relate to this. It's exactly how I feel too!
Well, if you haven't been doing things for you, now is the time to get back on that wagon.
Sounds like an insightful discussion with the DR crowd. Too bad I missed it.
I liked your story about the nurses... that really is good for the ole PMA. Had a similar incident this week myself, and it does make you remember that our Ss seem to be the only ones not noticing right now how great we are!
Met W to spend some time together at my request last week in trying to be friends. I said last week I didn’t want any R or D talk, just spend time to be friends.
I mentioned eariler I was at an outdoor play, this was mid afternoon and I wasn’t at work. She asked some details but not “with who?” Mostly, you took the day off? I don’t know what she was thinking, maybe who with maybe not. After, I got there and I was relaxed and so was she. She even asked if I wanted to go to dinner after dog park. This was really nice to hear. Maybe she is trying to be friends, but only within her boundaries, she will not allow me to get too close. She even asked if I could take her home afterwards. Ok, this is the first time she has even allowed me to get that close to her apartment. Baby step? She didn’t invite me inside at all.
Dog park was good, we made lots of small talk and connected because we both love animals. Dinner was good. A couple things she said, “How did you find out about the play?” and more questions about the play, all except who I went with. We went to a restaurant she never has been to, she really enjoyed the food. “How did you find out about this restaurant?” To both questions I was a little mysterious by saying “I get around and I find a lot of these things, I’m outgoing like that.” She said yes you are. Later she tried to pigeonhole me in an old behavior and I flipped it around and said, no I’m not, I just like to explore. Couple things at dinner, we caught up with each others lives, we talked a lot about her work stresses, problems she is having with her “best friend” who works their and her depression and how to handle her. We talked about my mom, her birthday, how close I’m getting to my mom by helping her through a lot of crisis, and we talked about her crises. I said she is such a strong lady I don’t know how she does it. My W started crying in the restaurant and at dinner. This is about my mom right? I also noticed her checking me out on more than one occaison at dog park and at dinner, especially at dinner. She also noticed I had a new jacket (at least she notices).
Couple of daggers thrown. I am sick of not posting these because I now believe I need to see the good and the bad to keep things in perspective. She made more than one comment about her future without me. Where she is going to live next, what she is going to do with her business, all of her new life friends and what they did together for Easter and so forth. I took everything in stride and just tried to be as pleasant as possible.
When I got her to her place the conversation went like this (I’m going to refer to her as Mrs. Seattle): Me, So can I have the dog for the week. MS, No, I’ve already made plans for the dog. Me, I’m very upset and disappointed. Could we talk about it? MS, No, my mind is made up, there is no discussing it, this is my decision. It is MY dog. Me, I would like to talk about my feelings, it doesn’t mean either one of us is right or wrong, this is simply how I feel. I feel that is totally unfair and abusive, I deserve the opportunity to at least talk about this. It is OUR dog, we adopted her together and raised her together. MS, I have to go now, I have to pack and it is ___ time. Me, Ok, but I feel this is the same problems we’ve had in communicating, this stonewalling is totally unfair. I deserve to be treated better than this. I deserve the decency to discuss this and be treated like at least a human being. MS, You can’t expect me to change my mind the night before I’m leaving. Me, I asked you last Friday, that is over a week. You said you would think about it and then you never returned my call. I even have an Easter basket for dog I couldn’t even drop off. MS, The dog is comfortable in her routine, I don’t want her to be uncomfortable. (OK WTF? The dog is going to be more comfortable with strangers and not comfortable with me and the house she knows?) Me, I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. Do you think the dog is going to be more comfortable with them than with me? I love the dog and no one would take better care of it. MS, I’ve let you see the dog. Me, Yeah, 4 times in 6 months is absurd. Only 2 of which were overnight. MS, Last time I had nightmares you were going to steal the dog. I don’t want to be out of town and have to stress about that too, I have too much to stress about. (OK so after A LOT of BS, she comes out with the truth. Can you guys see what I’m dealing with here? So hard to get down to the root of it with all the surface excuses. I can handle the surface excuses, but with so little contact, how can I get more progress? Any ideas?) Me, You know where I’m at, I’m not going to steal the dog. MS, The dog is like MY child. Me, The dog is like OUR child, how would you feel if you were me and you only saw your child 4 times in 6 months? MS, I’ve got to go to get packing. I didn’t want this night to get all emotional, I just wanted to have a good time with you as friends. Me, I’m sorry it became emotional but I’m not going to tolerate this stonewalling any longer. I deserve better than this. I wrote down some notes of my feelings, it isn’t a letter, I wanted to discuss these things with you but I expected this to happen. Please read my notes since we won’t be able to discuss these things.
Later I wrote a note to say her REAL REASON for not letting me have the dog I could at least understand that one. I might not agree, but I could understand.
With that I helped her with her stuff and gave the dog a hug and said goodbye. The notes I handed her are essentially the same thoughts of my long posts earlier. I had to call it like I see it. This has gone on way too long. I should have done this earlier. I have reasons for doing this, reasons within her background and mindset as to why tough love might work. I did it for myself, to be true to myself and to find peace.
After I composed myself I called her cell phone expecting to leave a message since MS has said so many times her cell phone doesn’t work in her apartment. You know what, SHE ANSWERED. I said my notes are for discussion purposes, I’m not saying them to be angry or mean, just to say them because it is honestly how I feel, please read them in that tone. She was very quiet but said ok.
I will no longer accept her REASONS for not talking to me except on her terms. They are all LIES and EXCUSES and I will view them as such. At least she did answer the phone.
I need to now monitor to see if she draws closer. If she does, I need to show unconditional love but also provide a bit of mystery that she may really lose me forever if she continues to treat me badly. If she doesn’t, I need to be more confident and live my life for me until she does initiate contact. Be happy being me and growing for me. There is a fine line between them both.
Quote: Just focusing all my energy on her and how I can accommodate her wants and needs. This has been SO DIFFICULT since she does not communicate with me. I have decided this is impossible. I can’t be proactive because I can’t guess what she is thinking, I can only be reactive to when she reaches out.
I understand what you are saying. I know what you mean. Even when we do have contact, it is often impossible to get a clear read on the WAS. We can't read their minds.
Quote: Right now, it will be in my comfort zone. For the time being, that is all I can do.
Again, I understand. I've been feeling a bit the same way myself lately, and I think it may have been a little hypocritical of me not to admit it.
Quote: men only appear to be tough with pride, we are actually very frail and have soft hearts. We are propped up with superiority complexes covering inferiority complexes.
It is unfortunate, but it is true, and I will admit to it myself. We are so often afraid to come out and show that we have feelings, feelings that might be classified by our male peers as overly-sensitive.
Quote: Another thing that came up with the DR crowd is that I really think it is tough for us men that are committed to DR. Not that it isn’t tough for women too, but our needs are so much more primal and easier to understand?
I think I'm with you here Seattle. I think us guys may have it a little harder. Please don't hurt me ladies, and I won't rule trying it, but my prancing around the house in some tight black undies isn't likely to affect my W the same way as if the roles were reversed.
Quote: I need to now monitor to see if she draws closer. If she does, I need to show unconditional love but also provide a bit of mystery that she may really lose me forever if she continues to treat me badly. If she doesn’t, I need to be more confident and live my life for me until she does initiate contact. Be happy being me and growing for me. There is a fine line between them both.
It's a very fine line indeed, one that always seems to be shifting, but I think we're seeing it better and better as we go along.
Hello Mr. S.... Very good that she agreed to go out w/you. That seems like a positive step. On the flip side, I know that when we get a little from them, sometimes we tend to take too much. As in your case, it may have been better off if you had not brought up the dog case coz it seems like it would have eventually turned into an R discussion (which it did). We yearn to get inside their minds and at each "open" moment we tend to push a little. I'm just as guilty but that is partly what they fear. It took a lot of control from me when my H finally agreed to go out w/me in Feb. not to bring up R BUT, I didn't, he did. So, it was successful for me coz it was edging on his mind, thus having him be the pursuer at that time. With me not pushing it, it made it easier for him to bring up and ended on a good note coz he wasn't stressed out coz they were things he wanted to know.
Sometimes, I don't bring it up at all-a lot of times. I am trying to make it as peaceful in that area as possible and even though I want to call, write or talk to him about it, I know that I can't. For 2 reasons...one, it becomes "old hat" if you will and he would dread seeing me each time coz "another" discussion is going to come up; second, it gives them things to think about that may not be as "good" as I had hoped. For example, if I tell my H that I don't want to spend any more "lost" time and do something that I would end up regretting- he may take it as "he" doesn't want to waste any more time waiting for that lightning bolt to strike him and think he "needs" to get out of this R. But what I was really saying was that I didn't want us to go round and round and finally get back together and realize all the time we were apart and how we can't get that back.
See how they can misconstrue our conversations and words? It sometimes gives them more fire-power so you need to be careful there.
Now, about the dog--I understand the importance to you but this seems to be a cheeseless tunnel for you. You push and she pulls. I think your convo went okay except instead of bashing her for the lack of time you've had w/dog, you could have approached it w/I really appreciate the few times I've been able to have w/her over the last 6 months and I wish I could spend more time w/her on a regular basis. Besides, I could have helped you out since I know her routine and schedule moreso than whoever else she will be with. It could have been beneficial for both of us. Just some ideas there....
I think I can agree w/you about males having a harder time w/DRing. I find it interesting about your comment on males being soft-hearted and covering up inferiorities. I've come to realize that w/my H. I was doing some reflection and the piece on sarcasm hit me from Betsey's thread that I could see that being the case for my H. I'm trying to break that beast a bit and get to the core. Hope it will come up in MC over the next few sessions. Thanks for that.
I know you're at a tough point now. I hope that things can turn around a little bit. Maybe your notes will give her a sign she never expected. I would just tell you not to call her about them when she gets back or whatever. Give it some time and monitor like you mentioned. If you don't get anything in response after 2 wks, you might ask her to lunch or dinner again and see if she is ready to talk about them but if not, don't push. Tootles................
