Went for Gold - got the Bronze

[rottzilla]

Hear hear to cruise's post, very good advice.

I hope I never have to feel those things you are feeling, but I am bracing myself anyway. I hope you find those feelings again with H.

[haphazard]

Reuben, to reply in more detail to your post.

It seems I do not want to examine how much I don’t feel the way he does.

This is the time to start looking at those needs and wants you have put to the side for a time. You do have to be careful with this. We can't have it all. No relationship is going to provide us everything we need. There are things my W does or doesn't do that I would like her to. They aren't "deal breakers" for me, so for now I look past them because the foundation of our M is what I want. Have you looked and examined your emotional needs? This is something we must to and work to build effective enough communication with our S so we can approach them as well with things we want and desire for our emotional well being.

The needs and wants that S supplies for me are:

Need to feel loved, this is quite big for me, even if I’m not sure of loving back I still need to feel the love from the other person.

Need to feel physically close to someone, cuddles as well as sex

The side that is not fulfilled is the mental/emotional closeness. He off-loads his emotions onto me whenever he needs to (which is often). I am not allowed to do the same back. There is very little mental relationship. I realised this quite early in our R, back in year 2 or 3. Initially we had been work colleagues so there was plenty to talk about but once that went there was little mental stimulus in our discussions. We do not shoot the breeze, he hates to be kidded, political discussions end in him laying down the law or getting angry that I dare contradict. A couple we know and are good friends with are always up for a discussion about anything and I feel like it is good sport. I don’t get that mental exercise with S and I miss that in a partner (yes even after 12 years I miss it). I accept that it will never be the case, he is not wired that way, but I miss it nonetheless.
Even just writing this has got me close to tears. I miss batting that ball around, having an opinion and being allowed to defend that opinion without rancour on either part. Often I have started talking about stuff (feeling like I am just getting out the raquets for a decent thrash around) and I see him glaze over, switch off – it tears my guts outs.

I feel like one day I will meet a soulmate and maybe it will even be H, maybe it will be someone else and maybe it will be a girlfriend but I don’t feel in any rush to do that.

That is quite the lofty expectation for your husband or anyone for that matter. Do you truly feel there is one and only one exact perfect person for you on this earth? How would you ever expect to find this person if he or she exsisted? It is totally unrealistic. You would never demand such a perfection from a close friend so why from your H?

I think you misunderstood what I meant by soulmate – maybe I got it wrong – no I do not believe there is one and only exact perfect person for me but I do believe that there is someone out there that I can have a strong mental relationship with, that I can speak my mind to on a number of different issues and they can pick the ball up and run with that. I can bare my soul to some extent but also just talk on many levels. They do not have to be perfect just someone who acts animated when they are in a conversation with me but also who I feel intimate enough with not to hold much back on what I feel.


Quote:
Heck I will even ML with him (he only seems to need it couple of times a month, and I need it too after all).

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I wanted to only ask if his reply to this would be the same. You say it only seem like..., this again can be detrimental to the R. You need to be able to communicate with him to find out if he truly feels this way, and not actually "acting as-if" with you as he can sense you don't want to be that close with him.

No it is true there have been occasions when I have (gently) turned him down. He could probably do with it more than twice a month. However there have been numerous occasions when I have been interested and he has not. I guess I mean when the two coincide is only about that often. When we have talked about it he will joke that he needs it every night. This is patently untrue. He is quite a low-energy person and is often whacked out by bed-time and not in the mood. So the truth of the matter lies somewhere between the two of us. I have been turned down by him and he has been turned down by me. Over the span of our whole relationship apart from the early days I would say 2 or 3 times a month is about average.
Quote:

I want him to be a strong brave hero-like person. That is not the person he is, it has never been the person he is or is ever likely to be.

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Have you allowed him the chance to be the hero for you once and a while? In my mind DB'ing has to slowly fade away as you build a true relationship. I don't know for certian, but I sense you continue to DB, while not allowing your true feeling to be shared with him. You can't do this all at once, but you have to begin at some point to live true to yourself in the R. Maybe let him know it would be nice to be "saved" and then give him a chance to do so with something specific. He can't read your mind, tell him a way he can help you and be specific.

I can work on this and I can see a great deal in what you are saying. However there have been a few occasions when we have been faced with a crisis and I have been the one to pull us out of it. I do not have any faith in him as our protector and hero. He does not stand up to the fight. I am beginning to worry that even at work he is starting to flake out

God places people in our lives for many reasons. I don't know if you are religious, but some contemplation on how Jesus would accept people would be of some help. ..

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you can have what you want. From what you have posted your H seems to be to the point he want to be all you want. Just give him the chance to be and let him know slowly how he can do that, and then let him do it. He has all the power to be what you want, let him in rather than hold him back.

I will try to do this, it is our only chance. However I do feel that when I look back at our best times even then I was accepting less than what I wanted. I do not wish to place blame on him for not coming up to the mark, how was he to know what my mark was. I am in the wrong for accepting someone who could not be all I wanted. I really cannot complain that I have the bronze, because back in the day I went for bronze.

thanks again for your input


Fran

[cruiserrg]

Hap,

I think there are things to work with here and that is Great! It sounds like to me the one major thing lacking for you is the mental/emotional R. If there are others, please post them as well.

First, I must say that reading your post sounded like something my W would have said as a reason she walked our the door and seperated from me. To me you sound like a WAW on the verge, and some of your discussion was alien talk. PLEASE step out of the fog for a bit and look at the reality. Hope this 2x4 doesn't hurt too bad.

From what I have read in this post your H wants to be close with you even to the point of being mushy, but you say you have been dening him that. Let me ask you this...if you were pushed away everytime you wanted to be mushy with a lover, would you be willing to have deep emotional and mental conversations with them? I would bet your honest answer would be NO.

You and your H are at the point of rebuilding your NEW marriage, but you are holding onto the past by saying he is wired that way and won't change. This is a MYTH, people can and do change! I also get the sense that he is open to this by him approaching you to be "mushy".

Also the points to make about sex...when he is joking about ML everyday, I would guess that is not far off. Most men I believe want to ML 4-5 times a week. I get the feeling he is joking with you as a plea for more without actually initiating it. I would be he doesn't initiate much because he is respecting how you are feeling now, and besides if you won't let him be mushy, what signal about ML does that send to him?

I feel that all of what you are talking about goes hand in hand. You want to have a deeper connection with him mentally and emotionally through conversation, but this is difficult for most men. I feel strongly that if you let down this wall and let him be the loving H he wants to be for you all the other aspects will fall into place.

Let him be mushy, ML to him more, do things with him to foster the R that you want and go into it like its already there.

Lastly some tips to help develop this communication. Get the audio CDs of "What Women Want Men to Know" and listen to them together. Next grab a copy of Mars/Venus and 5 Love Languages and read them together one chapter time and discuss after you have each read the chapter. Also list out things your H likes to do, things you like to do, and things you like to do together. After you have written the list, brainstorm together on things you both want to try that you have never done. Take one thing off the list each week and do it. Then afterwards have a nice meal and discuss what you did. Men like recreating together with their Ws and it fosters get converstations. Lastly, on your own contemplate the topics you struggle having with your H (ones where you or him get angry or both), than think of times that those discussions have gone well (if any) an think about what was different. Then only have them at those times. Timing is everything, and don't push if its going downhill.

Just some thought starters here. I hope you take the advise and do the homework above, and also the week of letting him be the loving H I suggested above and see where it takes you. Post back and maybe we can give more guidance. Don't be the WAS, work on your R as hard as you did to get your H back. DB for the R, not to get your WAS home.

[haphazard]

Hi Reuben,

You have a great deal of insight – I am so grateful to find people like you on this board.

From what I have read in this post your H wants to be close with you even to the point of being mushy, but you say you have been denyng him that. Let me ask you this...if you were pushed away everytime you wanted to be mushy with a lover, would you be willing to have deep emotional and mental conversations with them? I would bet your honest answer would be NO.

I have not been denying him. I would not do that as it would be a very rejecting thing to do. When he is mushy I will say something mushy back – but I will not feel it. It serves to highlight for me how I do not feel the way he seems to be feeling. I guess it is likely that he notices I am not “with him” when he is saying these thing. For example if he says to me – love of my life – I will smile back at him and maybe kiss him, but I do not say the same or similar to him and when he says it my first thought is “how sad – I don’t feel the same for you”.

Yes these probably do sound like WAW thoughts, to be truthful I think it was a race as to who would be out of the door first. He made it before I did. It brought me up short, I did not want to be walked out on. I DB’d I got him back. My sister quoted me that line from Cool Hands Luke “I calls quitting time”. Sometimes I feel that way. On the other hand I do not want D. I have two small children, I do not want to start my life over. We did have a good relationship once and I guess we could have it again.

My thoughts now are simply this, I can keep him here and I can keep him happy. I can make my own life fulfilling. Only I need to know that he is not my stars and my moon. If he wishes to think of me that way then he is welcome to and I will be loving and gracious. When we ML it is good and I feel closer to him. At the end of the day the bronze medal isn’t that bad. I guess I just feel I need to come to terms with it and get on with my life. It won't work however I need to turn soemthing round in my head to feel the right way towards him. To keep acting will leave me in a place where I can no longer be nice to him. At the moment if he gets too mushy, or wants to ML I have to struggle with myself not to let the rejecting feelings out. The feelings that just say "ugh - get off"

I understand what you have been saying and I will work on it. We have read 5LL and he quite quickly understood that QT is my LL. I initially thought that Acts of Service was his. He didn’t really want to say what he thought his LL was and said the book was a little too simplistic.
I now believe that Words of Affirmation and Receving gifts are the real ones for him. He did not want to admit this perhaps because he felt embarrassed somehow that he needs to be given gifts and compliments to feel loved. Maybe he felt like it made him a shallow person – whatever. But I am now convinced these are his LLs. His attitude really turned around after Christmas when I got him a lot of gifts.

The homework is a great idea Reuben. It will be difficult to find the time but I think we should try. My difficulty now is I think he believes we are sorted and settled and won’t see the need to do these things, I think he might be quite shocked to find that I need more than I am getting from this R.

take care

Fran

[cruiserrg]

Hap,

As much as I don't sound like it, I have had those feelings at one time as well. It was when my W first came back and was still a bit in alien mode. It gets better, trust me, you just have to stick with it and don't let these feelings keep you from your goal.

This goal should be to not settle for the bronze, but have the goal for getting to a GOLD relationship with your H. It can and does happen. DBing to get the WA home is just the start, you now have to work even harder to develope the relationship you BOTH want.

Along with my homework above, I suggest one other thing. Check into Retrouvaille, its a relationship changing experience. From the sounds of it your H would be open to it, and I suggest you give this a chance. You can read about my experience with it in my post, but I will tell you it will give you and your H a tool to develope an emotional relationship through sharing and understanding feelings through communication.

Miracles happen, and I saw one in each couple through our weekend. If you do anything for your R and your kids, I would suggest giving Retrouville a try. www.retrouvaille.org

[nitaf]

Hi, I am Nitaf. I am new around here. My sich is in Separated-now what. I might move over to piecing. Were you and your Wa separated? How long? How long have you been back 2gether?

[nitaf]

May I suggest that you goto Ellen Kreidman.com and order Light his Fire/Light her fire Audio. One of the best investment I have made in a long time.

[haphazard]

Hi Reuben, hi Nitaf,

Thanks for your suggestion about Retrouvaille, Nikatnight made the same suggestion a while back. Unfortunately they do not have a branch in the UK - but there is one in the Republic of Ireland which is an cheap and quick plane ride away so I guess we could do it.

I am also intrigued by the Light his/her Fire tapes. That's what we could do with around here a little passion!

I have noticed that when my son (4.5) isn't 100% happy/intrigued by something then he is miserable. I guess he gets that from his Dad. Looking at the way H can be when the tiniest thing doesn't go his way it is really an overreaction. I think over the years I have reacted to his overreactions thinking that there was something serious going on when really he just overreacts to the negative in his life. I am learning to detach and let him get on with being that way. Not feel like it is my fault or that I can fix it for him. I think he is unaware of it himself and maybe felt like I was on his case all the time because when small things went wrong I would be there trying to soothe/fix when it really wasn't necessary. He is giving out these really strong signals of misery but maybe that is just his way of discharging the negative and there is nothing for me to do. Humour can help my son out of his negative moods, but I have tried that with H and he just gets affronted thinking I am trivialising a serious situation or teasing him. Maybe I need to try the same sort of humor on H that I do on S (i.e. slapstick or silly stuff) instead of verbal quippery. Ho Hum thank God for DD she can see the funny side of everything!

Fran

[haphazard]

What am I doing wittering on about by 80% perfect relationship when the real issue in my life right now is my mum. August 01 she had a kidney removed when they found a tumour. She has been having routine scans ever since and as far as I was aware they were all clear. Not so - she has had a lump removed from her breast and they have now picked up "nodules" in the lungs. She only confessed this to me a couple of weeks ago because I had made her scan appointment for her while she was on holiday so after the appointment I asked her outright if the scan was clear.

She has been keeping it from everyone (except my sister) because she didn't want to be treated any differently. And I guess because she didn't want to feel the reality of it. My poor sister has been carrying this burden around for 18 months with noone to talk to about it - it is so unfair on her. I had been wondering what the hell was wrong with her all this time, why we didn't seem close anymore, why she was so cynical and rude all the time

Unfortunately neither of my parents have much emotional intelligence.

I talked to my Dad, that man is truly weird, he is a very intelligent person but he has the emotions of a frog. I should be grateful that H has an emotional life even if he finds it hard to control. Dad is like a stone and he has no idea of the emotions others might feel. He has not accompanied my Mum on any of her hospital appointments Which is just horrendous, here she is receiving bad news after bad news with noone there to even hold her hand I think I managed to talk him into going with her. He told me she didn't want him to, so in front of him I asked her why she didn't want Dad with her and she said - yes I do.

The worst thing is they live in France so neither my sister nor I can be there on a day to day basis. She is well in herself at the moment but I guess it is only a matter of time.

I know this isn't a bereavement board or anything but you guys have always been so supportive and I guess it puts stuff in context to know what else is happening in someone's life.

take care all - and love the one you're with

Fran

[haphazard]

Just journallying. Anniversary of the bomb is looming and I have been feeling it. The other day H said ILY and my reply without thinking was "you didn't a year ago." Anyway this must have sunk in with him a bit because he has been guilting about the amount of time he spends away diving and says I must be feeling unloved.

I don't feel unloved, I don't know what I feel. I feel loved by him and by the kids too. Noone could want for more love than I am getting right now, I'm just not sure I feel it back (for him - not the kids!). Slowly slowly I guess. Bit by bit little things happen that nudge us in the right direction. It's the talking really - he has never been much of a talker and still isn't. Yesterday he passed his final diving exam - yay. He said "how long have I been dreaming of being a dive instructor? - four years". The thing is that was news to me, I knew he wanted it for about two years tops because I never get to hear what he wants, what his hopes and dreams are, what his opinions are.

He does seem open to hearing what I want from our R, so maybe now is finally the time for me to tell him what I want.

take care all


Fran