Maturin - My Story (2)

[Maturin]

Thanks you, D.

Logging in here quickly to hold myself accountable, because I messed up a bit y'day. I went golfing with some friends (for the record I don't really like golf, but since my priority is to GAL I jump at whatever is there) and came home to find my W, her two brothers, and a friend at the house. It was a typical scene from our pre-BD days: kids running around, family watching football, enjoying a few drinks, etc. Only now I feel completely different about things, of course. Both of her brothers and this friend knew about the PA for years and never told me.

I came in positive and cheerful, everyone greeted me warmly. Soon one of my BIL came up to privately ask me how things were going and suggested some creative planning around keeping the house after divorce. This is when the screwing up began: I felt myself becoming emotional and said something to the effect of "You know, everything you're witnessing right now is a fantasy. You guys coming over here like old times, pretending nothing is wrong, when in fact this is all going to go away. Everyone in this room lied to me for years, and I don't want anything to do with it anymore."

To his credit he hung with me, told me how sorry he was and that he loved me.

Later in the evening I was pulled into a fight w the W. Everyone was gone and she was drunkenly asking how we can avoid D (that's right: sober January lasted 6 days). At first I was calm and told her "I won't repeat myself, you know what needs to happen for D to be avoided". She began to cry and said she would never tell me any details about the A because her IC of a few months back told her not to. I began to argue with her, and brought up all the wayward behaviors and sexlessness of the marriage. She became defensive, telling me sexlessness is completely normal. I told her I wouldn't have any of it: the lying, the betrayal, the dead bedroom. It was just a mess. Overall it didn't last long and we both went to bed, but it represents some real backsliding on my part.

So today is a new day, and I am reverting to my old DB self. But the doubts linger: how much longer am I going to endure this misery?

[MrP]

Hey M. It happens. Even 4-5 years into DBing.

I felt myself becoming emotional and said something to the effect of "You know, everything you're witnessing right now is a fantasy. You guys coming over here like old times, pretending nothing is wrong, when in fact this is all going to go away. Everyone in this room lied to me for years, and I don't want anything to do with it anymore."

We can get so anxious, tired, flustered, and other feelings such that we don't have much in reserve at these moments when we need it. Or, it can feel like a hard night of drinking: it feels great at the time but now you're paying for it with a regret hangover. Luckily, it sounds like your BIL is understanding and let himself be vented upon.

Laterletting in the evening I was pulled into a fight with the W. Everyone was gone and she was drunkenly asking how we can avoid D (that's right: sober January lasted 6 days). At first I was calm and told her "I won't repeat myself, you know what needs to happen for D to be avoided". She began to cry and said she would never tell me any details about the A because her IC of a few months back told her not to. I began to argue with her, and brought up all the wayward behaviors and sexlessness of the marriage. She became defensive, telling me sexlessness is completely normal. I told her I wouldn't have any of it: the lying, the betrayal, the dead bedroom.

You started great by reminding her you've already told her your boundaries. And then it sounds like you threw the kitchen sink at her. I'm glad you realize now that this wasn't helpful other than the temporary catharsis that comes from unleashing your frustration (again, like drinking and a regret hangover). I know how good it can feel, especially when you've got the high ground. It sounds like you already know channeling Clint Eastwood would've served you better, Blondie.

I guess my idea of visualizing cheese sitting on a trap didn't help either darn it! I also often ask myself if what I'm about to say or do is going to help or hurt the outcomes I want to achieve for me and D13. In retrospect, how do you think these incidents served the overall outcomes you want?

I can't recall if you're seeing an IC. If not, it may be helpful. Mine was my primary source of venting, rather than family or friends because if we R, I didn't want to have our dirty laundry rolling around my broader family and social circle. I've got one close friend I do vent to who has demonstrated absolute trustworthiness over my lifetime. I recommend having 2-3 options for getting these things off your chest outside of these settings. Even journals can be great if you can secure them from potential snooping. IMHO, you've got to 1) burn this energy off some other way and/or 2) increase your capacity to absorb and respond to it at the moment in a more productive way.

Get up, dust yourself off, yell your preferred expletive(s), and do better going forward.

[Ready2Change]

I messed up a bit y'day.

I am not sure you messed up.

Everyone in this room lied to me for years, and I don't want anything to do with it anymore."

This is a true statment. Nothing wrong with saying this. You are not letting fear control you.

At first I was calm and told her "I won't repeat myself, you know what needs to happen for D to be avoided". She began to cry

If she is crying out of remorse, that is a good thing.

I began to argue with her, and brought up all the wayward behaviors and sexlessness of the marriage. She became defensive, telling me sexlessness is completely normal. I told her I wouldn't have any of it: the lying, the betrayal, the dead bedroom. It was just a mess. Overall it didn't last long and we both went to bed, but it represents some real backsliding on my part.

Again, I don't think you messed up. As long as you keep focused on remaining calm and controling your emotions rather than letting your emotions control you. Most here are arguing the point of why they want to stay married (completely disregarding that there are serious issues that need to be addressed (And truely heard).

[Maturin]

I guess my idea of visualizing cheese sitting on a trap didn't help either darn it!

It had worked nicely in two earlier discussions, but on Saturday night I let my guard down.

I can't recall if you're seeing an IC.

I am, and I journal, and have a few close friends who are not in our direct circle that I vent to about things when needed.

If she is crying out of remorse, that is a good thing.

Hard for me to say, especially since she was drunk. She normally cries about this stuff when drinking and while I don't think they're crocodile tears, they certainly have a "woe is me" flavor. I recall Sandi's writing talking about crying as a WW manipulation tool and that's how I have interpreted her crying episodes. Manipulation and garden variety feeling sorry for herself.

Again, I don't think you messed up. As long as you keep focused on remaining calm and controling your emotions rather than letting your emotions control you.

R2C, your comments lifted my spirits y'day when I first read them because they helped me re-frame the interaction. Yes, I asserted my expectations and what I will and won't tolerate. But the conversation also included criticisms from me that were not helpful and probably felt like pressure. As much as I wish it came across as "Listen, the way you want to live doesn't work for me, like I've said before. But it's your choice. Anyway, I've been gone all day so I'm going to go spend time w the kids." It probably sounded more like "I've told you before I won't put up with the partying and trashy behavior and it's weird that we don't have sex!" I see it now as overly critical and not akin to dropping the rope.

Overall my disappointment stems from the fact that I see this episode as a step backwards after months of consistency, and one of Sandi's 37 rules is "Do not backslide from your hard earned changes." The moment I walked in the door I considered saying hello and then leaving, because I knew there was a risk of something like this happening, especially with alcohol flowing. The good news is that I was away w the kids most of y'day and we were very much reset - back to being cordial and focused on me.

Other than that the weekend was great, spent lots of time w the kids making memories. Today I go out of town for work. Thanks to all of you for weighing in, it helped me remained focused on identifying the problems and moving on.

[MrP]

Hey M. Hopefully getting some time out of town and away from ground zero will be helpful for some more introspection and recovery. I'm glad you received varying feedback from me and R2C. It illustrates how there isn't a single right answer, reflects the nature of the site (sharing solutions), and leaves it up to each of us to decide what best applies to our situation.

I've seen the book No More Mr. Nice Guy recommended here at various points. There is a section where the author talks about the idea of "victim puking" I believe. When I first started DBing, I 1) did the same thing you did here and 2) read this book. It felt like I was victim-puking and the concept helped me refine how I approached enforcing my boundaries vs. victim-puking.

The former takes more work, and thoughtfulness, and is less something done on the spot. But, it gets at what I understand R2C is pointing out: you don't have to sacrifice holding people accountable as part of the DB process or in general.

Also, I began asking myself what my goal or intent was in holding someone accountable. To get them to change? No. I can only control myself. The satisfaction of blasting people individually or as a group when I thought I had the moral high ground? That is short-lived catharsis and not the overall person I'm striving to be.

To provide them with feedback that 1) I have a boundary 2) they crossed it and 3) depending on the severity, if it happened again, then I would be stepping back or out of the relationship. Yes. A big part of this process is reclaiming ourselves, taking care of our needs, and continuously improving. I'm not sure if this is a good solution for your sitch. Like R2C, I feel strongly about standing up for oneself when you're pulling facts into the light. And, to me, understandably, we lose our (insert expletive) once in a while within reason to demonstrate the severity of the boundary(ies) violated.

[DnJ]

Good Morning M

This is when the screwing up began: I felt myself becoming emotional and said something to the effect of "You know, everything you're witnessing right now is a fantasy. You guys coming over here like old times, pretending nothing is wrong, when in fact this is all going to go away. Everyone in this room lied to me for years, and I don't want anything to do with it anymore."

I don’t believe you majorly screwed up here.

Emotions are perfectly normal. It’s fine, good even, to feel. You have to. We’re not robots.

Just because you felt emotional does not negate something. Look deeper.

Why did you start feeling yourself getting emotional? What was driving it? I think it is your values, your beliefs and convictions. A perfectly normal response reflecting your values.

People lying for years to you. Yeah, I’d not be around such folks. I choose my friends better than that. I’m worth better than that. To me, that’s the tenet you’re tapping into here. And that is not a screw up!

Responding emotionally is not the platform you’d like to speak from. Recognizing “why” and “where” your feelings came from will allow you to not reinforce them and let them extinguish; and then speak from your convictions and reason. Same message, different delivery.

Later in the evening I was pulled into a fight w the W. Everyone was gone and she was drunkenly asking how we can avoid D (that's right: sober January lasted 6 days). At first I was calm and told her "I won't repeat myself, you know what needs to happen for D to be avoided". She began to cry and said she would never tell me any details about the A because her IC of a few months back told her not to. I began to argue with her, and brought up all the wayward behaviors and sexlessness of the marriage. She became defensive, telling me sexlessness is completely normal. I told her I wouldn't have any of it: the lying, the betrayal, the dead bedroom. It was just a mess. Overall it didn't last long and we both went to bed, but it represents some real backsliding on my part.

Backsliding is an interesting thing. Sure, we’d like to go forward without error. That’s the usual ideal we behold. And it’s flawed.

Consider your life lessons over the years. Which one’s were really altering? Really stuck with you? The one’s where you failed, or were not successful, or got a negative outcome. Bah, forget the “correctness”, the times you failed. That’s when we really learn. When we face our failure, dust off, and learn and grow. When done right, we don’t repeat that particular failure again.

In that light, backsliding is a positive step. We often feel backsliding to be negative. Yet, logically we know that the learning potential from such is greater. Often our greatest lessons come from our greatest failures.

Keep moving forward is just that. Move forward. Do not fear making an error or misstep. Learn from them, learn from others where and when you can as well, dust off, and keep moving forward.

Backslides when treated correctly are misnamed, for they are the harbingers of forward positive progress.

To that end. Did the exchange with W bring you closer to resolving those things you brought up? Well, not directly for you do not control W. And whatever influence you may have imparted is unknown and will take time to percolate in W’s mind and heart. So, another similar exchange is likely not in your best interests.

Listen to W. These folks drop clues all the time. Stay emotionally stable (indifferent) and let her lead the conversation.

I get the impression you’ve built a wall around your heart and mind regarding W and her behaviour. It’s a common response. Do the uncommon and counterintuitive thing, keep your heart soft and squishy. Do not let your heart calcify and harden; for it does not serve you.

Boundaries are for disrespectful behaviour. They are rational well thought out responses/actions enacted by you when some predetermined action/behaviour takes places. They are not a platform for launching a fight or trying to modify the other party’s behaviour.

Some suggestions/feedback:

“I was pulled into a fight w the W” as apposed to “I was pulled into a fight with W”. Not sure if this is a typo. “with the W” depersonalize her. That thinking and writing makes her more a thing than a person. It allows you to push her away, and to consider her, her feelings, and her view as more abstract. It is a common effect with detachment and indifference.

She’s a hurt person. And hurt people, hurt people.

It does not serve you to see her in that non-personal light, or to demonize her. In forgiveness you’ll look and see through a different lens. (Just some encouragement to that lofty and noble goal.)

It’s not about pushing her away, it’s simple letting go.


W: (drunkenly) How we can avoid D?

(that's right: sober January lasted 6 days). (I understand. And it’s factual. And it adds a brick to your wall.)

M: I won't repeat myself, you know what needs to happen for D to be avoided.

She began to cry and said she would never tell me any details about the A because her IC of a few months back told her not to. I began to argue with her…


What if you had responded like:

M: Hmmm. Interesting. How do you see us avoiding D? I am open to listening to whatever ideas you have.

Let her lead.


W dropped a big clue to her mental and emotional whereabouts. She is not ready to discuss or share details of the A. Not yet.

Let go vs push.

You are pushing for answers. Reasons. Let it go.

In time, those answers will not be as pressing. That’s not to say they’re not validate or some such, just your need for knowing will (can) diminish.

Most situations that reconcile, those answers do eventually come. And by that time, one has let go the need of the question. Currently, such demands are extreme pressure to XW.

“She became defensive, telling me sexlessness is completely normal.” Validate her feelings. Don’t fight. Does not mean you agree or condone. It’s just, this is presently her view and belief and response (along with significant drinking), for whatever reasons and hurts she has bottled up. You cannot change her mind through a frontal assault. To her the sky is red, and no amount of fighting will force her to see it as blue. Time and space. Let her come to it.

Some gentle prompting questions and statements may have W open up more about what’s going on inside her. To me, she appears to want to say more, yet feels unsure and/or unsafe. Be a safe place for her to land, if/when she tires of flying about.

Keep moving forward.

D

[Maturin]

I get the impression you’ve built a wall around your heart and mind regarding W and her behaviour. It’s a common response. Do the uncommon and counterintuitive thing, keep your heart soft and squishy. Do not let your heart calcify and harden; for it does not serve you.

This is deeply perceptive on your part, D. I have built a wall and it's bigger than I realized. The rejections my wife has levied at me - denying intimacy, disrespecting me, calling me desperate at times, having a PA - are painful enough that I look for ways to avoid her outright. Even today I felt the sting. I'm out of town on a work trip and she texted to let me know she's having dinner w two girlfriends this weekend. One of these women is a real problem - bored and wayward in her own way, she was my wife's wingman at all the singles bars. Right when I saw the text I felt rejected. All of the momentum behind me, all the 180s and GAL felt futile when the feeling washed over me. Which I suppose just goes to show that I am still doing all this for her and not for me?

I know there are bad days interspersed with good ones during this process, and after a horrid travel day and very little sleep I know I'm vulnerable to feeling the down side a bit more today.

Her wayward mindset is the biggest problem in this entire ordeal. The longer she sees him waiting, the more secure she feels that he can be her fallback plan. As long as she feels she has him under her control (emotionally attached), why should she change anything? The old W would have appreciated him standing for their M, but once waywardness takes over, she sees his standing more as a barrier to her happiness. It will be after she weathers the storm of waywardness that her appreciation for her H will be felt.

That's an old quote from a thread of Sani'd I bookmarked, found here. I certainly feel like the fallback plan and I don't like how it feels.

ALRIGHT, ENOUGH WHINING. Thanks for listening. I'm kicking butt at work this week, made plans to go skydiving with my brothers this weekend, and plan to take my kids to one of the coolest museum's in the western US on Saturday. I'm going to get plenty of sleep tonight and wake up refreshed and ready to rock tomorrow.

[SteveLW]

Being Plan B for your wife is the second worst feeling behind only getting friend-zoned by her.

[bustorama]

she was drunkenly asking how we can avoid D (that's right: sober January lasted 6 days). At first I was calm and told her "I won't repeat myself, you know what needs to happen for D to be avoided".

What needs to happen? There's 2 people. So, it's not only what you need from her.

1) Remind me what do you need from her. What of her actions make you feel like her fallback plan? What are the non-negotiables still happening between the two of you that you cannot abide? What are you doing when she crosses these boundaries? If you are not communicating and enforcing in some way, then she will think you will keep waiting around for her wayward self while she tramples all over your fences. And she will keep losing respect and attraction for the man she wished she respected and was attracted to.

2) And, what actions does she need from you? Do you have any idea? How can you find out?

I can guarantee you that listening and validation are two high ones on that list.

But, also leading action -- a self-assured man with firm boundaries that won't allow her to trample them, but who also is enough of a rock to hear her through her anger or tears and not control her.

When she cries to you drunk about the R, she is wishing you could lead her and the two of you out of this place of misery. As long as she is not in an affair or crossing core boundaries, listen closely to her.

3) And, what do you need to change in yourself?

Remember that she is not strong enough to change your actions, thoughts, or feelings. Those are up to you.

You said that at some point shortly after she disclosed her PA, that she was very remorseful and wanting to work on things.

But, you were too hurt. And you did not forgive then, still have not forgiven. Instead, you built a wall. You do not trust her. Partly because you still feel rejected and disrespected by her.

Even if she was acting perfectly (there is no such thing), she can't make you trust her. She can't make you forgive her. She can't melt your wall. Those are things only you can do. And you will need to do so if you will be able to reconnect with anyone again -- her or someone else. Are you working on any of these issues with an IC?

Something I find helpful for forgiveness is to remind myself that everyone makes perfect sense to themselves all the time. When you have acted badly towards her in the past, at that moment, it made perfect sense to you that you did or said whatever you did. Overcome by emotion, the heat of the moment, or whatever, you let an insult fly or 'lost control' of your actions in some way. But it made perfect sense in that instant because you acted on the impulse of your feelings. (If it did not make sense, you wouldn't have said or done it.). Only in retrospect and a different mind state, you see it was wrong and not how you truly feel.

It's similar in some ways with affairs -- but over much longer timescales of acting on extreme feelings. People feel justified in their waywardness because they are acting on their feelings instead of values. Think of how YOU might have to feel to even entertain the idea of having an affair. You protest, I'D NEVER DO THAT! NO WAY! I'm sure your W thought that about herself too.

And yet, she did.

So think of what feelings she must have been experiencing for her to engage in an affair because there's no respectful reason to think she was much more open to having an affair than you are. And once someone engages in an affair, it damages their sense of self too. The cognitive dissonance associated with having an affair is off the charts -- cause only 'bad people' have affairs. That leads to either major entitlement and more waywardness (if recognizing they were not entitled to have an affair is just too much of a threat to your self-image of being a good person) or devastating guilt and shame (recognizing the enormous harm they have caused).

In either case, the emotional world of person who had the affair also is blown up. So it is unsurprising that there is a lot of drinking self-medication and bad behavior that continues post-affair. If you have not read any books about recovery from affair, it may be helpful because it can be very hard for someone to empathize with the emotional world of someone who had an affair --during and after the affair. And that understanding can promote healing for both parties. When she has brought up the idea of what it would take -- if she is sincere about it -- how about as a starting point seeing a couples counselor for affair recovery. Are you open to that? Have you identified possible ones?

While you avoid and reject her now too and admonish her that she knows what she needs to do, how likely will she feel connected to you and want to be intimate with you?

So long as she is not violating your core boundaries, it's a fine line of not accepting crap behavior and disrespect, working on yourself/GAL, and listening and validating her so you can begin to speak her love languages better as/when she approaches you with a desire to work on the R.

[Maturin]

bust, thanks for that reply. I will read it but I am logging on now for some help.

Last night I had perhaps the most difficult conversation with my wife since DDay. She came home drunk, woke me up, and started with all the usual "I don't want to D, we can make arrangements" type talk. On the advice of others here I validated and asked questions rather than my usual "let's talk in the morning". The conversation then drifted to our sex life. I have stopped pressuring there but we have a dead bedroom, with no intimacy since September and prior to that, 12-15 times per year for a few years.

Now, I have struggled with PE in the past and the last few years of dead bedroom and have it much worse: with sex being so rare, the pressure is on to make it good and I have an issue. It has popped up here and there in our marriage, but in my view we had years of a good SL.

Well my wife opened up and told me it's not fun for her because of my PE issue, and it's always been the case. She claims we have never had a good SL, even claiming that when she hears other couples talking about "going at it like rabbits" when they were newlywed, she doesn't remember that for us. She also told me she pleasures herself regularly, which shocked me. Over the years she has claimed I have a higher libido than her, but now she admits she does have a sex drive.

I validated and listened, and asked questions. I was falling apart inside but held it together. When I suggested we both can meet each other's needs, she dropped the bomb that she doesn't feel that attracted to me anymore after all that's happened. I said something to the effect of "well it's not fair or reasonable for either of us to stay in a marriage that isn't meeting our needs, so let's talk more in the morning". We ended up having sex for a few minutes, but she was so not into it that I stopped the act (no PE issue, ironically).

I haven't slept all night. This was so hurtful to hear, and I would like some solid advice on how to move forward as a man. My instincts tell me to hear her out, and that part of this is "rewriting history" as some WW do. I will continue taking actions like GAL and my 180s. But as someone who always thought of myself as attractive and desirable, this hurt like hell to hear. I have more to say but I have to run. This forum has kept me sane for months, please talk me off the mental ledge here.