Complex WW and/or MLC #3

[sandi2]

I explained that I just need her to open up and be honest with me, stop trying to hide her affairs and once she comes clean, I then can start to believe that she is focused on honesty.

This has a tone of "double standards". You had multiple affairs and was not honest with her for two years. You even said you have not yet revealed everything, and may choose not to do so, b/c there is no way she could ever find out. Well, that's your choice, but what I'm looking at is a man who is expecting his W to be fully honest with him, while he withholds his own secrets. Did you have an A with someone she knows? Someone close to her?

I can understand if you don't reveal the sexual details of your A's, in order to protect her. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.....that's up to every individual. I have seen cases where the other spouse was not able to get the scenes out of their head, once they heard all the gory details. I'm just not sure if it's "details" or something more you feel the need to keep secret, until.......or unless you decide to reveal it during a MC session.

I can't argue with the things you need in order to reconcile. The remorseful apologies, full confessions, transparency, etc., are actions I promote. I just think you have the advantage over her, b/c of your surveillance intell........while feeling comfortable in knowing she has no such advantage about your own affairs. That gives you a sense of control. You are requiring all this honesty from her, while choosing to wait about your own? You want her fully committed to you, before she hears (if you choose) about your own dishonesty?

[P_Jam]

Hi Sandi,
You are 100% correct - that IS my point. I will share everything with her that she wants/needs to hear about mine. No it was not someone close to her or a friend. Everything she knows about mine (which is ALOT) I have provided 100% on my own to her. Eventhough I did not want to. I've asking/telling her since the very first conversation that these details should be shared in MC. But becuase she has pressed me have answered the questions she has had so far. There is still a few details (timelines, etc) that I could need to disclose but the "bad stuff" is really already on the table from my side. I have done this show that I"m committed to doing things differently if we move forward. But she has lied to me multiple times in the very recent past about her affairs. "Nothing happend, we're just friends, He was the only one, No way, I wouldn't do that".
So I have suggested that we stop these conversations until she actually ready to have a discussion about them (like I am) in MC. I only pressed her this one night because she brought it all up and then lied again. So I'm just trying to tell her that my expectation for the reconciliation process will be getting all of this on the table for both of us. I do not want to have these hard conversation without MC present to help us walk through the proper steps of getting over the affairs.

[LH19]

PJ,

Big mistake pushing for the truth that night but obviously you are aware of it. My guess is that brought back some unpleasant feelings from her regarding you trying to control the situation.

My main concern is this is all happening to quickly. I feel you two really need to come to the realization that you are meant for run another. Time and space is needed for that determination.

[P_Jam]

LH,
That is my concern too... so now what? We are both feeling the connection. We have since discussed that night (in letters) and I"m 100% confident she is still very remorseful. And as you noted I'm sure there is some bad feelings about me trying to 'control' the situation. That being said; I think its mostly the invasion of privacy that she feels over the lengths that I went and as I tried to explain above... She still feels out of control in regards to being able to disclose apologize on her own terms (since I know so much). So in General I agree with you - but 2 things: 1, I have since told her I do not want to have those conversations, I do not want/need to put her in a situation where she needs to lie to me again. But made it clear she will need to be ready to disclose and deal with the issues at some point. I will not reconcile without a full accounting on both sides in MC. Second, I have been clear with her that I'm aware I totally took away her sense of privacy but given the situation (I had a pretty strong gut feeling she was lying) and each time I did snoop on her I was right and found more. So it is very difficult for me to say that I would not do the same thing again in the same situation. I don't have "right" to jump to those lengths on any little bad feeling but I didn't do anything like that for 15 years. Only when this started happening. My point is- I'm not in anyway caving to her in this way. It is what it is and we need to deal with it all.

I believe we at the start of reconciliation. I don't put too much on it right now as this can easily change quickly, but I don't really want to go backwards. Shouldn't I just keep my boundaries with MC and deal with those issues there? I do not expect/want her to move back in too quickly. We still need that space - but do I really need to put the brakes on this?

[P_Jam]

Not to mention that I need to give a lot of credit to DB'ing... I was worried for a while but I think me making the decision to have her move out, going NC immediately, focusing on my 180's, and GAL all significantly helped her realize the loss relatively quickly. Also, I've said from the VERY beginning that this sitch was a little different. Was never 100% sure I was right - but with the limited list of issues at BD (and how easily they could be fixed) there is a part of me that is not SUPER surprised. We had some issues in our relationship for sure but it never really felt like the 'punishment fit the crime" in our circumstances. The big question is.. how/why she was able to go so extreme in her actions if what I say is correct and it wasn't really that bad?

I'm also becoming more and more convinced (99%) that she has not gone GGW or even PA in a while. I get the feeling there might have been some form of PA right after she moved out, but I'm getting signs that she has really been taking some time to her self - In other words I don't think she is playing both sides right now.

[LH19]

I think you keep doing what you’re doing as far as hanging out having fun and hooking up but just make sure you let her come to you at her own pace. When she brings up reconciliation stick to your boundaries and be clear on what it will take.

[sandi2]

I think its mostly the invasion of privacy that she feels over the lengths that I went and as I tried to explain above... She still feels out of control in regards to being able to disclose apologize on her own terms (since I know so much). So in General I agree with you - but 2 things: 1, I have since told her I do not want to have those conversations, I do not want/need to put her in a situation where she needs to lie to me again. But made it clear she will need to be ready to disclose and deal with the issues at some point.

You are talking to her too much....... and using too many words.

I will not reconcile without a full accounting on both sides in MC.

Has she actually said she wanted to reconcile? I see all this stuff you are saying to her, but has she said she wanted to save the MR, or it is mostly you doing all the talking?

Second, I have been clear with her that I'm aware I totally took away her sense of privacy but given the situation (I had a pretty strong gut feeling she was lying) and each time I did snoop on her I was right and found more. So it is very difficult for me to say that I would not do the same thing again in the same situation. I don't have "right" to jump to those lengths on any little bad feeling but I didn't do anything like that for 15 years. Only when this started happening. My point is- I'm not in anyway caving to her in this way. It is what it is and we need to deal with it all.

It is extremely common for a WW to try and turn the spot light on the H invading her privacy, in order to distract from the real problem. I think the less you say about your snooping, the better. I like your last statement, "It is what it is and we need to deal with it". I think by giving focus on your snooping, she tries to put it up there alongside her lying. So if you say something about not trusting her to tell the truth, then she'll go back to not trusting you b/c you invaded her privacy. Right now, neither of you trust the other one.

Shouldn't I just keep my boundaries with MC and deal with those issues there?

Those aren't "boundaries". Those are your terms or conditions in order to reconcile the MR. I agree with them, but they aren't boundaries.

We had some issues in our relationship for sure but it never really felt like the 'punishment fit the crime" in our circumstances. The big question is.. how/why she was able to go so extreme in her actions if what I say is correct and it wasn't really that bad?

What do you mean? Are you asking why she was wayward if the problems in the M were not that bad?

I'm also becoming more and more convinced (99%) that she has not gone GGW or even PA in a while. I get the feeling there might have been some form of PA right after she moved out, but I'm getting signs that she has really been taking some time to her self - In other words I don't think she is playing both sides right now.

You want to believe things weren't that bad, your sitch is unique, that she hasn't been as wayward as some other WW's, and you think the sitch is on the edge of reconciliation. Maybe you've talked yourself into believing it, IDK. You are setting yourself up for a big disappointment if you don't back off with the email R talk. You don't have to back down on what you require in order to reconcile the MR.......but just stop talking to her about it. That is major pressure! If she really wants to reconcile, then let her come to you. You've told her the terms, so now it's up to her to decide if she wants to do the work.

If there is another occasion where she shows up where you all are hanging out, then act as you did previously when friends were together. But don't repeat the R talks & emails.

[P_Jam]

Sandi,
We are on the same page:
She has not said she wants to reconcile yet (as that requires commitment to MC, Monogamy and shortly after beginning of MC a transparency plan). That being said she has made multiple comments - "I like our family, we are a happy fun family, this is nice" etc, etc. AND her actions have all been towards the DIRECTION of reconciliation - but she has not yet committed.

When I say "it wasn't that bad" I'm just implying that the re-writing of history and resentment seem to be diminishing. Obviously it was that bad - but not as bad as she had it in her head when she moved out.

We have been seeing each other a lot recently and each time there is affection initiated by her. As of yesterday I have started to pull away just a little (it feels passive/aggressive) but I'm not doing it for her reaction in anyway. It's because of how much time and affection we are sharing WITHOUT the commitment. I feel like I/we are walking into a 'trap' where she doesn't really commit but yet we still act like we are reconciling. Basically cake eating... so this week I plan to focus on myself more. Also, I understand not initiating the relationship talks - but it is hard to avoid if she starts the conversation.

[sandi2]

As of yesterday I have started to pull away just a little (it feels passive/aggressive) but I'm not doing it for her reaction in anyway. It's because of how much time and affection we are sharing WITHOUT the commitment. I feel like I/we are walking into a 'trap' where she doesn't really commit but yet we still act like we are reconciling.

If it feels passive/aggressive, maybe you aren't doing it the right way. Could you explain this a little more?

There are some who see pulling back to mean they have to be somewhat cold to their spouse. In your situation, I don't recommend that you act cold. Think of it as giving her freedom and/or personal space. Don't pursue by initiating contact, inviting her to go somewhere, etc. Let her initiate text messages, email, calls, etc. You can respond, show warmth & friendliness without over-doing things........can't you?

I know what you mean about the trap. IDK about her, but most of the WW's I've read about,(who are not completely on board in doing the necessary work to save the M) prefer to by-pass the MC,........and resist giving a 100% commitment. Needless to say, they hate transparency and usually resist it. (BTW, some MC are not supporters of transparency.)

I think your W will use affection & sex to slither under the door and secure her place back in the home and avoid commitment & transparency, and maybe other terms you may have in order to reconcile. I've seen it happen too many times!

P-Jam, just continue to remember that she has a heart condition. In order for the MR to have a fair chance, she's going to have to do a lot of work on her heart and get all that negative stuff out. It won't be pleasant for her, but as long as she has willingness......then anything is possible.

Also, I understand not initiating the relationship talks - but it is hard to avoid if she starts the conversation.

As long as she conducts the talk in a peaceful and respectful manner.....then she probably just wants you to listen. If so, then that's when you can apply validation. Just don't over-kill with it. If she should suggest that the two of you try some other route to reconciliation, and you don't agree......then just tell her. Don't go back over everything you have previously told her you require in order to reconcile. She knows, okay?

From what I have been able to determine in the majority of WW cases, she'll resist giving commitment upfront. She wants to just try dating or living together "to see how it goes". You have already stated your conditions, so all you have to do is tell her (at the end of her talk) that you can't go forward without commitment. Then don't argue or pressure her about it. She knows where you stand.

[P_Jam]

Hi Sandi,
It feels passive aggressive because I have to 'pull away' which is not what I've been doing. But again, it is not to try and get her to want me more. Its more about still letting her feel some loss. for the past 1.5 weeks she has had her cake and been able to eat it too. Which was okay with me exactly what I was willing to do but as we progressed through this time and had the talks/letters I still felt like I was the only one 'giving' - with the exception of her initial break-down which went south once she tried to hide/not tell the full truth. I'm pulling away for me. Cause I do not want to slide into a situation where we are acting like reconciliation but my terms and conditions are not being met.

Update from 5mins ago: As I said above.. I've started to pull away a little. Saw her on Sunday to exchange kids as it was Papa's birthday so I allowed her to take the kids for a few hours that day. She initiated 2 hugs (when when she arrived and one when she left) I hugged back but in a slightly more distant manner that the last 2 weeks. I did not pull her in and make it deeper. I just hugged smiled and moved one. She then texted on monday "Happy Monday!!" I just replied "Thank you, I hope you're having a great one" - then no other texts. I think she was reaching out hoping for some conversation.

Now the big news! This morning I get this text:

W: "Good Morning! Can I ask you a question?"

M: "Well this doesn't sound good if you have to ask. You can ask but I'm kinda at a place where I'm tired of being the only one willing to give answers. So I'm not going to guarantee that I will answer."

W: "Actually never mind. Are you seeing your IC today? If he's still willing to see me at the stage you guys are at will you see if he's open on Thursday to see me?

Me: "Yes! okay I will ask. That is not what I expected to hear from you. Are you sure that you don't want to ask me the question"

W: "No, I'll trust the answer is no . I love you PJ"

M: " Ok. I love you too. I hope you are okay. Have a great day I will email to get you scheduled"


So this was a bit of a good surprise this morning - No??