My W and I have been together ~10 years, married ~8, I'm 40 she's 38. Three kids, 7S, 3S, and 2D. I work at home and W stayed home with kids so we've seen a lot of each other since 2012. This is long but I don't know what's important so I include a lot of backstory.
First problem that goes way back: I'm terrible at initiating sex and affection. I like sex, and never reject my W, but I'm poor at initiating. Fear of rejection, inertia, I don't know, I'm just bad at it. I am also bad at giving non-sexual affection. This led to our first major fight (end of 2015) after birth of second kid, where W talked about feeling very rejected by my lack of initiating and general lack of affection and didn't like where our relationship was going. I tried to improve, and did for at least a while. We made Friday a sex day no matter what, and it was good, took the pressure off, and we ended up having sex even more often than that. We were good to each other, affectionate, it was nice. This lasted about 6 months.
Then we had a new house built. We had about 5 months between selling our house and the completion of the new house, so we moved in with W's parents for this time. Also just before moving W got pregnant, and she was exhausted all the time. This plus moving meant our Friday thing ended and our sex life was again very sporadic at best. Not much affection, TBH I just felt too awkward being affectionate at her parents' house.
Moved to new home, third kid born early 2017. Three kids, including 2 under 2, is a big change and I felt pretty overwhelmed by it all, basically just surviving and stressed by parenting and getting in work, remember I work at home and didn't make good boundaries. Sex and affection stayed pretty non-existent as work and parenting and sleep became priorities.
Summer 2017: I'm diagnosed with Autism/Asperger's. I have also always had social anxiety and am an extreme introvert, I believe this has something to do with my difficulties in affection and initiating sex. It doesn't affect my work at all, I think it’s a relatively mild case and there isn't much social interaction. Anyway, W seemed supportive, nothing was new to her except an actual diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never followed through with further treatment, we went to a couples workshop which seemed fine but that was it.
Feb 2018: We had a fight, W exclaims "I want to divorce you! I'm living with you but I feel like I'm living alone." Without knowing it at the time, I kind of do DBing for the next two months, being nice and supportive, validating, I work on being more social, doing things without her and also planning more things with her. We appear to reconcile and things seem fine for a few months.
Summer 2018-now: Don't know when it started but W is generally cold to me. Things happen like she complains about me not initiating sex but then I try and she will reject me and initiate herself the next day. After a few times I feel like what's the point? Sex stops completely in August. W puts on a lot of weight, this + being cold and mean all the time makes her much less attractive to me. I get mad that she is treating me like crap so decide that I won't be affectionate at all in return and withdraw completely. Given our history that's a bad decision. So we kind of go into a downward spiral. We don't fight a ton, but it's just cold. One time we fought she said out of the blue "I don't want to go to marriage counseling." I never even asked...
She stayed home with the kids since 2012 but started looking for a job Oct 2018. Got a job in December. Perhaps this had to do with me, but she was also clearly burned out from full-time parenting. She enjoys her new job and talks about it all the time. She works a ton, normal hours there plus extra at home. I have no reason to believe there is an OM, I know she is legit at work all the time (unless the OM is at work, but I've met most and it just isn't likely).
6 days ago school of 7S calls W, he's having a lot of problems with anger and meltdowns at school and talks of hurting self. In 2017 he started having a lot of meltdowns and being upset a lot. W delegated to me the job of getting him help. Soon he seemed ok and back to normal, it seemed to me like he was just adjusting to having another sibling and getting less attention from us (he would tell me exactly that), so I thought all was ok and never pursued it. He'd have issues at times but I rationalized it. I regret my lack of action, but anyway W was livid that I never did anything about it because of "your disability and anxiety problems." And she gave me an ultimatum: we know our marriage [censored] right now, get him therapy or she will divorce me.
I had been working on an email to W (this has been a normal way of us starting relationship talks) saying I've spent a lot of time being mad at her, I am done with that and want to be more intimate and affectionate but we're in a rut now so we need to get out of it together. After this phone call I sent it. This was certainly dumb but what can I do now.
Her response somewhat paraphrased: == It's not about sex or intimacy. Our problems are larger than that: Alcoholism. Depression and anxiety. Co-dependency. Isolation.
We are roommates right now, and I suggest we stay that until we figure out the best plan of action moving forward for the kids. I want you to move into the guest room.
I am not investing energy in this right now. I do not want hostility. I am not going to be mean to you anymore. I suggest we work on our friendship. This is no longer about “your fault vs. my fault.” It’s about deciding the best plan of action to get us through the next 6-12 months. ==
This was 6 days ago. She took wedding rings off.
I said moving to guest room was fine if she wanted that, but I haven't moved out of our bedroom yet (there is no bed in the guest room, there are couches elsewhere) and have not offered again, I just go to bed each night. She hasn't brought it up yet, we'll see, and last night when I went to bed we just talked about our days for a while.
Other than that one email, I never did any pursuit type stuff. I stopped texting her at work except for necessary arrangements (we used to text all the time). We've been mostly cordial, just professional. I'm trying to pretend all is normal for now as I don't know what else to do.
Even though she said sex and intimacy aren't the problem, I know they are from our past. I also know now is not the time to do anything about those issues. The other things she mentioned:
Alcoholism I have a drinking problem. I think I self-medicated my anxiety issues. I go through periods where it is a problem, and periods where it isn't. I'm never angry or belligerent, and don't around the kids as it would be after bed time, I just drink too much too often at home and W has never liked it. Around August as the marriage was deteriorating I started again more.
Depression and anxiety Again, I admit I have anxiety issues. I don't believe I am depressed, although I can see how it looks that way. I could be wrong.
Co-dependency and Isolation I've said I work at home. Our recent move was to a more rural place. I don't have any friends here, am not good at making friends, and basically just hang out with my wife and kids. It doesn't help that W works like 60 hours a week so most of my time outside work is with the kids.
So what do I do now? I know I've got a lot of flaws and we've had problems off and on for a while. There are some obvious things I can change.
I stopped drinking. I haven't been happy with it either, I know it's been a problem. I didn't tell W and she hasn't said anything. I'm not concerned about starting again, I have known that this was going to be an eventual step that needed to be taken.
I got the ball rolling with 7S. He is talking to a school counselor every day and he will also see someone else for additional help.
FWIW, my relationship with my kids seems fine. I spend lots of time with them and they love being with me.
I should see someone myself about managing my own stress and anxiety. This will be good for me and also be a 180 opportunity.
I need to GAL. I have hobbies that I've neglected, but W isn't helpful about coming home early so I'd need a babysitter. Again, good for me and a 180 opportunity going outside my element.
Anyway, I've read Divorce Busting and came here. I don't know what she meant by "get us through the next 6-12 months" or "plan of action moving forward for the kids." That is, I don't know if she has D in her mind as the inevitable outcome or just a possibility or what. But with D said a few times out loud, overall it's not sounding good.
I have realized there is an opportunity here. The recent past has been awful...I don't want to go back to the way it was with cold and mean W, our MR was dying out, but if the old her is still in there I'd love to restart. I love her and I love my kids and don't want my family destroyed. I understand we will need a better me to make that happen (a better her too, but that's outside my control). I need a kick in the pants sometimes to follow through and make things happen so maybe this board will help me.
Me - 40 W - 38 T - 10 M - 8 Kids 7S, 3S, 2D BD - 2/2018, 3/2019
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
Mak, sorry you're here. But you will get honest, straight forward support here. We tend to be blunt so hopefully you will understand that.
First, good on the drinking on stopping. However as a recovering alcoholic you need to do more than just stop. You have to quit. That means it can't be in the house (talk to your WAW about having an alcohol free home). Stop hanging out with anyone that doesn't support your sobriety. Stay away from all social situations that involve alcohol. These are difficult but necessary steps.
Yes get in to IC. Stat. Asperger's, even a mild case, is nothing to ignore. And you certainly should avoid all chemical dependency if you have Asperger's. But you need therapy and you need to start right away.
And please get your son evaluated. Mental illness tends to be heriditary, so get him to a psychiatrist to rule out Asperger's or other issues. The school counselor likely is not equipped to really handle mental illness. Though it can't hurt to have him also seeing the school counselor.
mak, do not move out of the MBR. If she brings it up again, listen and validate. Then state calmly that if she welcome to sleep else where, but she is also welcome to stay in the MBR as well. This is important.
Now the good news.... It seems to be early in her walk away mindset. She's talked about things but taken no action. This is typical and usually indicates that while she has WAW feelings she may not be in full WAW mode yet. However, she is vulnerable right now to OM. So time is of the essence.
First, detach. Codependency it's no way to live. Listen to her. Validate her feelings. Be upbeat, present, pleased, and happy around her. But don't be overly talkative. Mainly just listen. Don't try to solve her problems, try to understand them and emphathize with her. You need to try to get to place where her words and actions do not affect you emotionally. If she does move out of the MBR, you don't change how you treat and interact with her. Control your emotions. Don't get upset or angry, steady, cool and calm.
Yes GAL. Try to be busy, even when home. When you aren't with the kids you are busy. Hobbies, activities, out of the house... Never idle. If you watch sports go out and watch them (just be aware of the alcohol temptation and avoid it).
And 180 on all bad behavior. Don't pout or ignore. You may want to read No More Mr. Nice Guy as I am detecting nice Guy tendencies.
Become the best you can be. A man only a fool would leave, and be the best father you can be!!
Keep posting and keep us up-to-date on your sitch.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Hello Mak, so it sounds like you've got a lot to work on and that you have a fair idea of what that is. First please understand that any changes you make she will view as "too little too late" for now. She may even get angry and say things like "why didn't you change back when I wanted you to??" The reason for this is it took her a long time to get up the courage to end the M and now she will be upset that you're not just going along with her plans. So it's VERY important to STICK to your changes for the long haul. Eventually she'll realize that you really have changed and it's not all just temporary tricks to get her back.
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Summer 2017: I'm diagnosed with Autism/Asperger's. I have also always had social anxiety and am an extreme introvert, I believe this has something to do with my difficulties in affection and initiating sex. It doesn't affect my work at all, I think it’s a relatively mild case and there isn't much social interaction. Anyway, W seemed supportive, nothing was new to her except an actual diagnosis. Unfortunately, I never followed through with further treatment, we went to a couples workshop which seemed fine but that was it.
Are you getting treatment for it now? If not then please do. This is one area you can do a 180, if you've been neglecting your health needs, especially those that your W has commented on in the past, then get them taken care of.
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I get mad that she is treating me like crap so decide that I won't be affectionate at all in return and withdraw completely.
Classic passive/aggressive response. Add "No More Mister Nice Guy" to your reading list, it delves into this sort of thing- covert contracts and such.
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I had been working on an email to W (this has been a normal way of us starting relationship talks)
Wow, you had R talks by email? OK well don't do that anymore. Right now you don't want to initiate any R talks at all, but in the future should you start working on the M again then those talks need to be face-to-face.
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Other than that one email, I never did any pursuit type stuff. I stopped texting her at work except for necessary arrangements (we used to text all the time). We've been mostly cordial, just professional. I'm trying to pretend all is normal for now as I don't know what else to do.
All you can do is give her time and space while working on yourself. Keep reading DR (read it numerous times). Read Sandi's rules every day as a guide on how to behave towards your W.
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Even though she said sex and intimacy aren't the problem, I know they are from our past. I also know now is not the time to do anything about those issues.
Quite right. Was probably a contributing factor but you've got to shelve that for now.
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I have a drinking problem.
Sounds like you stopped drinking which is great, but please do stick with it and get help if you have trouble.
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Again, I admit I have anxiety issues. I don't believe I am depressed, although I can see how it looks that way. I could be wrong.
Go see a doctor and get evaluated for depression. You can't self-diagnose this.
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So what do I do now? I know I've got a lot of flaws and we've had problems off and on for a while. There are some obvious things I can change.
You change those things. You be the best dad you can be. You leave your W alone, don't be cold/indifferent to her just lovingly detach and give her time and space.
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I don't know what she meant by "get us through the next 6-12 months" or "plan of action moving forward for the kids."
Don't worry about that. If you can effectively remove the pressure from her she won't be in a hurry to do anything.
Thank you both for chiming in. No More Mr. Nice Guy looks interesting and relevant, it's now on my reading list esp. as you both mentioned it.
Re: an IC for myself, yes I am researching that now, finding someone to go see. That will hopefully help me work on all the Asperger's/anxiety/possible depression issues. As AS said, I have been neglecting myself so this will be a process. It will be good for me and it's also a 180, win win.
Re: evaluating my son, yeah we had him evaluated after I was diagnosed, he was negative or whatever you would call it, which probably helped my lax attitude at the time--I would have been more on top of his issues if I knew he was also on the spectrum, but I can't change the past now...anyway him and I are going in to talk to an IC for him Thursday so hopefully they will have some ideas for helping him.
Re: relationship talks by email...yeah probably kind of weird, we'd get started by email and then do face to face later to flesh things out, but yeah face to face is better.
Re: drinking, quitting that is going to be the biggest positive change for me and also will be a big 180. And it could be a big "why did this take so long" complaint from W. I have to always keep my mind in a calm and ready to validate mode. It's been too easy to bicker the past 6 months or so.
The other advice from both of you seems spot on and confirms what I've been reading around here the past few days, thank you. GAL, validate, detach lovingly and be a great dad. That's basically my job right now. Detaching without being absent is going to be the most difficult part I think, it's a bit of a fine line, but I read a bit about that in your first thread Steve so I'll continue reading this site. Sandi's rules look like a great thing to focus on right now.
I am hopeful, as Steve said, that she might be in early WAW mode and I can get these positive changes going and we can nip this in the bud before it goes full on. At the same time it's been over a year since she first said the D word so she's had time to have these feelings grow. I'll just have to play it by ear and DB as well as I can.
Me - 40 W - 38 T - 10 M - 8 Kids 7S, 3S, 2D BD - 2/2018, 3/2019
Mak, your last paragraph reminded me of something that happened to me. Almost exactly 1 year before BD, her and I were having a small tiff over something. She stopped, looked me in the eyes, and said: "We shouldn't be married." I blew it off. But I've mentioned it in my own threads at one point. It should have been a bigger wake-up call than I took it as at the time. But it does show how long it can be ruminating in the eventual walkaway's brain before becoming verbal.
One thing that our situations are similar is, based on how you wrote about how the original bomb drop happen, is that you kind of help initiate it by being in an argument with her. I initiated my BD by confronting her about her EA. This is one of the reasons, among others, that I think you have a great chance of turning this around.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Do not talk about the changes you are making. Just change your behavior. Do not talk about why you are changing. You are now a man of action. You actions will speak loud and clear to her.
If she ever ask, simple response:
"I decided not to drink any more" That is it.
If she ask about the MBR:
H:"I like sleeping here"
Does she drink at home? If not, just get rid of all the alcohol by yourself.
Mak, your last paragraph reminded me of something that happened to me. Almost exactly 1 year before BD, her and I were having a small tiff over something. She stopped, looked me in the eyes, and said: "We shouldn't be married." I blew it off. But I've mentioned it in my own threads at one point. It should have been a bigger wake-up call than I took it as at the time. But it does show how long it can be ruminating in the eventual walkaway's brain before becoming verbal.
One thing that our situations are similar is, based on how you wrote about how the original bomb drop happen, is that you kind of help initiate it by being in an argument with her. I initiated my BD by confronting her about her EA. This is one of the reasons, among others, that I think you have a great chance of turning this around.
Thanks for the insight. Yeah it was almost like an in the moment, we're fighting so this is a way I can lash out at you. I didn't dismiss it but probably didn't give it the weight it deserved. It should have shown me more that this was on her mind and was going to stay on her mind without big changes. As I said I was kind of unwittingly DBing for a while, things got better, then I stopped. Here's hoping I am more ready to make permanent changes now.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Do not talk about the changes you are making. Just change your behavior. Do not talk about why you are changing. You are now a man of action. You actions will speak loud and clear to her.
If she ever ask, simple response:
"I decided not to drink any more" That is it.
If she ask about the MBR:
H:"I like sleeping here"
Straight and to the point, I like it, thanks. Neither have come up yet, which is surprising to me but whatever.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Does she drink at home? If not, just get rid of all the alcohol by yourself.
She doesn't really drink at home, like every few months, and I got rid of everything. That is a good thread. Confidence is key.
Last night wasn't very eventful. I am getting sick so I went to bed early (in the MBR, with no comments). Before that 3S had a terrible time throwing tantrums about going to bed. One thing I don't like and want to change is that I get too frustrated with the kids too easily when they act up--too quick to yell. I wasn't perfect but did a better job than usual with staying calm. Not a 180 there but maybe like a 90. I'll take it for now, baby steps.
Me - 40 W - 38 T - 10 M - 8 Kids 7S, 3S, 2D BD - 2/2018, 3/2019
W came home from work early crying. She had a big fight with her boss, who is engaging in some shady but legal activities, which she learned about by happenstance. She's lost all respect for him though and feels the company is being kind of run into the ground so she wants to quit, but also wants to stick it out for a while as she applies for new jobs, since it's easier to get a job when you have one. It's a tough situation, especially since she likes her job a lot when she can just do her job. She's taking a nap now, I'm working on the other side of the house.
As for DBing, I worked hard on not interrupting her, and not telling her what she should do--two things I've often done, which she doesn't like, so it's great to avoid right now. And of course validating all. That sounds really awful, you must have been really frustrated, I can't believe he said that, etc. I feel bad for her and wanted to give her a hug but it doesn't feel like we're there right now so I did not.
7S is about to get off school so I'm going to hang out with him for a bit.
Me - 40 W - 38 T - 10 M - 8 Kids 7S, 3S, 2D BD - 2/2018, 3/2019
Good Mak, 90 is better than zero so just keep working on the progress. I would even argue that slow progress will look more real to your W then sudden and extreme 180's on everything so it's not a bad thing. Just keep chipping away and keep a long-term view. You are going to hear and see a lot of upsetting things from your W, a lot of very negative absolutes "we will NEVER get back together", I am 100% DONE" and such. Steve is reconciled and he'll be the first to tell you he heard all of that and more.
