My WH was actually living an entirely separate life (living every other week in a different state and acting like a single guy) when the BD happened. I think it was a highly compartmentalized situation, he was able to soothe himself that he was a "good husband and father" when he was home every other week. It worsened when he started working 3 weeks a month in another state and he was only seeing us 7 days a month. The irony was when he came and lived here full time he still lived this bizarre double life but broke it into small compartments. There was the NG doctor at work all day and then the aloof, selfish husband when he returned home. The mental gymnastics was stunning. When he actually saw and felt me truly detaching then it clicked. But before that moment I kept doing things and checking his reaction. Only when I decided to give up and move on did he sense the fundamental change. I made sure to talk to loved ones and friends that I knew were strong enough to bare my pain with me. I stopped waiting on him to comfort me.
Will your husband ever return? I have no idea. I seriously think when you mentally move on and start to look elsewhere for your happiness he will grasp harder. Your instinct will be to accept him back with open arms but I say don't, wait 6 months and observe for real changes before lowering your guard. I personally believe everyone has the capability of real change but it requires serious motivation. I had absolutely no desire to change my self, my personality, until I realized I may be single parenting and had to be a better person. My WH's affair and MLC(?) was definitely a wake-up call for me. I came to the realization I was depending on him to shore up my weaknesses during our marriage. Only when I realized his presence was not a guarantee did I change a lot of negative behaviors and thinking. When my WH saw these changes it kind of held a mirror in front of his face and he realized what he was doing. This convoluted response it to say yes, I do believe your husband can find his way back but it depends on his strength and honesty to self.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
Hey Nic just checking in.... We are thinking about you. The holidays can be a particularly rough time and busy too! I hope you and your D carved out some special moments with each other.
You can make 2019 a better year... you are a strong wonderful woman. Others see it!!! Now, we will work on you seeing that!
Hey Nicole! Hope you are doing well and the New Year is bringing fresh perspective. Come back and let us know how things are when you get a chance. Much love to you and your D!
Hi All, I'm terribly sorry that I haven't responded to your gracious messages. There's so much to say. I promise to write a full response as soon as possible. Everything is ok here, thanks. It's been crazy busy. I hope you're all doing well and got through the holidays as well. I will do my best to write, respond, and post on all of your threads this weekend.
Hey Nicole! Good to hear that everything is ok. I look forward to reading your update!
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
I owe so many responses from December 18th and 19th. I can't believe it's taken so long. Below I'll do my best to address all your kind and generous messages from those days:
Joe - It's good to hear divorce was a relief for you. I hope I find it to be the same assuming everything continues as it's been going.
Adam - I really want to visit your thread and post on it. I'll make it a priority! Thanks for your encouragement. Regarding long distance relationships - when I met my husband I was living in his country so it wasn't long distance at that time. The guy at the office actually lives in the UK and I live in the US. He moved from the UK back to his home country in Europe so we never worked in the same office, but I'll be visiting his home country in a few months so I'll see him then. I don't plan to date him or pursue a relationship but I just wish to enjoy having dinner with him one night because he's really great. It's true though. If I wanted to pursue a new relationship it should be a local one because I can't take such a big risk to move somewhere far away with my daughter, or sponsor someone to come here, because too much is at stake now.
Manta - thanks for your warm message!
Neffer - thanks for your encouragement!
Lonewlf - The holidays are really hard. I can't imagine how hard it was for you if your met your wife during Christmas. Did you hear from her at all over the holidays? I also hope for peace as well for you and everyone here.
Maika - Thanks for taking the time to write all that! Regarding reclaiming myself vs. saving the marriage. It's a balancing act. There are legitimate mistakes I've made and negative aspects to my personality that I've been trying to fix, and will continue to do so, and they serve somewhat of a dual purpose including becoming a better person in case the marriage can be saved and reclaiming myself as well. I find it hard to grasp the issue of 'reclaiming myself' because I don't really feel like I was a different person in the marriage vs. out. I've always been kind of the same in terms of beliefs, work ethic, personality, social life, etc.. I think I need to understand it better and try to differentiate. I'll give it more thought. I guess the part where I get stuck is that my views about marriage are strong and I have a deep conviction towards working through temporary hardships in order to achieve success in the long term. I therefore might have a harder time giving up on a marriage where I'm quite sure my husband will realize the mistake he's making at some point, but I've tried to let go and re-start my life while leaving the door open to fixing the marriage even when I feel at times it's too hard. About my religious beliefs - first I think that must have been really hard for you to leave your religious community! It's true that religious communities are formed based on a common belief and if you no longer buy into that belief then you may not be able to stay. Just out of curiosity, have you found a new religious belief? About mine - I grew up in a rather liberal denomination of Christianity but in a part of the US that is conservative and even radical in their life styles. I believe Jim is from the same place where I grew up so he might understand. As I became a teenager I became quite radical and conservative in my beliefs to the point where it was clear in my mind where my career would take me and what I wanted to do in life. I didn't date and I was focused on the mission I wanted to pursue. Members of my family tried to tell me to loosen up but at that time it didn't change much. In college I found Islam to challenge my faith because of its conservative nature, similarities to Christianity, and the lifestyle it entailed. I was intrigued and I began going to the mosque and talking with a lot of Muslims. My career then took me to the Middle East where I had an opportunity to really compare and contrast the two faiths. Ultimately in one country where I lived there was a spiritual leader that I began to follow and to this day I seek his teachings. He was nominated for a nobel peace prize and he's the person in this world I most admire (I never met him though). Around the time I began following him I met my husband who was also a follower....I can't say I ever 100% switched religions but I found Islam with all its rules for how to live, the way it connects to science and commands its followers to worship God alone, etc... to be an excellent fit for my conservative values and a path towards going deeper spiritually and finding greater contentment than the somewhat superficial practice of Christianity that I experienced in the US. So it's not that my religious views changed based on meeting my husband but more that he fit into my views. He was interested in Christianity and we found ourselves to be a unique fit for one another because we were both looking outside of our original faiths, wanted to learn more, and could offer one another a window into the other faith. Since that time I've been a blend of two faiths and I'd really like to be one or the other but I can't, with total conviction, choose. I've been participating in a different denomination of Islam more recently but I was also attending a church where I learned a lot. I think my anxiety comes from being in religious limbo just like being in marriage limbo! About my beliefs being tied to being part of a community - I don't think that's the case because I've wandered in-and-out of several communities and I'll probably end up wherever my beliefs align best and not based on any kind of need. I do, however, recommend to anyone the option of participating in a religious community when going through a hard time because it helps us to look beyond ourselves and our own feelings and connect with something greater and universal. I don't want to write another novel so I'll try to touch on your other points. I think my lack of confidence comes from having shifted my belief systems and view points at several junctures in my life and not having a strong enough conviction that I've figured everything out and know what I need to know. There is so much we'll never be able to know. I need to synthesize everything and form some conclusion but I've been trying to do this for such a long time that I think I've lost confidence in my ability to make decisions. There's also the confidence issue related to my husband leaving me for younger, more attractive women and the hurt that comes with the person you love leaving so easily for someone else after what seemed like a strong marriage. I don't feel as though a partnership is any kind of escape strategy in my case, or that my happiness is dependent on a partnership, but rather that I thought what I had with my husband was so unique and so tailored to the way I am and the way he is that we were a perfect match. Obviously we were not, but for a while it seemed like we were. I'm such a complicated person and I don't feel like I fit in with Western society. It's so easy to date and sleep with someone and have an affair and get divorced here. I guess my family values are very strong and strict, however I'll comment more on this at the end. About being co-dependent - honestly I don't know. I think we may have different views on what co-dependency is in this group. In the general sense I think we're designed to be co-dependent and that marriage is a form a co-dependency where we depend on someone else and they depend on us for many (but not all) of our needs. As I understand co-dependency in the clinical sense is a problem when someone is enabling someone else's drug addiction or when someone feels the need to help someone else who doesn't help them in return. At the end-of-the-day that's kind of what my husband did although for about seven years it felt like a healthy marriage and partnership where we had our own lives yet we were blended together in so many other ways. We helped one another a lot. This is all a new thing with my husband becoming a selfish jerk and leaving. He wasn't like that before. Anyway, I'll explore co-dependency further with the next counselor I see to determine if it seems to be an issue. For me I'm not so sure a partnership is a way of self-medicating, because I'd much prefer to be alone than with a partner that's not the right fit, but as mentioned above I thought my husband and I were the right fit and we complimented one another so well, not to mention how we endured a war together and supported one another's careers, had a child together, etc... For me this isn't something I can let go of easily or quickly but I've tried to rebuild my life and go back to being independent since that's really the only good option. In terms of filing for divorce and the LBS taking control and filing, that really is a very personal decision. If you feel comfortable doing it and feel the time is right then that's admirable. In my case I haven't felt that conviction yet, not because I think my husband will wake up tomorrow and want to fix everything he broke but because I just feel morally opposed to it being such an easy way out for so many people. I'll stop there because otherwise I'll just keep writing forever but I really appreciate your analysis and smart questions!
Davide - Thanks for your encouragement. Thankfully there was never any issue over the holidays. My husband stayed with his family. I agree with you about loving oneself and needing to feel that we're at peace with ourselves before we can share life with a partner. When I got married I felt that way, and I felt the marriage would open so many doors towards fulfilling our dreams and creating something bigger that we couldn't create on our own (particularly joint finances, kids, bringing together two cultures, more integrated belief systems, etc..). I broke off an eight year relationship prior to meeting my husband because I felt the guy didn't have the same goals and had too much self-love for himself. There's the danger of loving oneself too much and then the danger of not loving oneself enough! It's interesting to hear your wife is from another country. Perhaps when our spouses get their green cards or citizenship it empowers them and gives them the courage to do whatever they want to do regardless of whether they started out with the plan of leaving us or simply realized there's nothing to make them stay.
Blu - I'm glad we're on good terms! Someday I'll find the time to read the old messages. Yes I will look for the common themes and try to better see DB as part of the bigger picture and part of a process that we'll all go through regardless of what we call it since once we're divorced (by choice or not by choice) we'll have to re-invent ourselves one way or another. I think it's a good roadmap, especially early on right when one partner wants out. I may be a bit more jaded because I've been going through this for years now, including my husband returning and us struggling for another two years before he left again. It's like a long saga and I may be a bit lost in the process because I've seen so many counselors, read so many books, tried so many things, and had patience for so long. My time frame may be different than most but I've already gone through the process of renting my own place, separating all the finances, supporting myself financially, relying on my own support network, etc.. but truthfully I know someday my husband will wake up and come back and it's really a shame that it'll be too late by then, especially for our daughter.
Sia - I agree he needs to be a better father before he can be anything else. There's an innocent child who still loves him and believes he's amazing despite his despicable actions. It's good your husband feels at least a moral responsibility to be there for his kids. And it's true that no culture teaches you to treat your wife and kids bad. In my husband's home country divorce does happen but it's much less common than here.
Bo - thanks for your kind words! I'll keep striving to be a better role model for my daughter. I also like the concept of being queen of the house!
Ovrrnbw, thanks for your holiday wishes. I hope your holidays went well!
All, I will continue again as soon as possible. I will write to PsySara next and I'll share other updates as well. I'm several hours late going to bed already so I'll continue ASAP. Thanks again for all of your time and encouragement. I wish there was a way to meet you all in real life!
You are so conscientious in responding to everyone! It seems like such a reflection of your character.
Please do share an update about how things are going and how the holidays were. It is great to hear from you again!
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
Jim – That sounds good to correct him and explain to our daughter that he chose to leave. She still keeps telling me I should have been nicer to him (not just during his recent visit but in the past) so in her limited understanding she seems to think I did something wrong to cause him to leave. I hope she figures out on her own in the future what actually happened.
Sia – Yes I'll keep him outside of my apartment from now on.
KitCat – Good to hear you had a happy ending after everything you went through. I’m looking for lawyers. The one that was recommended to me by the lawyer that prepared my husband's immigration papers is $625 per hour so I've been checking ones with lower rates. I can't justify throwing away $625 for another consultation. The $350 I paid for the last one was pretty much worthless because she just confirmed what I already had calculated from my own research. Hopefully this week or next I'll find a less expensive one worth meeting.
Ginger – I can tell you know what it’s like to be your own safety net. There are a lot of women who have no idea what that would be like. Pretty much all of my friends are in stable marriages and many of them don't work. If their husbands left I don't know how they'd survive. I think they'd move back in with their parents. What happens when moving back with your parents isn't an option? You have to rely on yourself! I've lived this way most of my adult life. It's different though when you have a child. A lot of my anxiety comes from not knowing what would happen to our daughter if I become ill and I can't care for her myself. We don't have anyone else. I can take care of her and I when I'm healthy but if I'm not we have no back-up plan. I hope I can figure something out. It’s amazing what you’ve been through with your ex-husband and life. I’m not sure how you can go to the movies with your Ex-husband and his wife. I'm not sure I'll ever have any desire nor ability to socialize with my husband after we get divorced. What he did is just so bad that I don't feel we can just be friends after divorce although I've been ok with being friendly over the past year while waiting to see if he figures things out. I’m still not sure which version of my husband is the real version…perhaps he was an actor all those years and everything he did was fake. I just don't know anymore, but what I observed is he didn't have the coping skills to become a US physician and a father. He buckled under pressure after having grown up in a house where his parents took care of everything and all he needed to do was study. It seems he just didn't have it in him to rise to the occasion and he was too tempted by materialistic things to sacrifice himself for his family and career. There are still moments when I wonder if I was just so terrible and extreme and difficult to live with that he felt he had to leave, but I've apologized and worked hard to change myself and it makes no difference to him. Only God knows what lies in his heart.
Neffer – thanks again for pitching in and suggesting I’m doing the right thing.
PsySara – thanks again for your input. Your story appears to be a long one just as mine is, as in multiple years of going through this back-and-forth. It’s good when you reached your breaking point you felt sure about filing for divorce when you did it. It sounds, however, like your husband didn’t want to divorce considering he wasn’t being proactive about the paperwork. Mine on the other hand is long gone so your marriage probably had a much better chance of your husband turning himself around although I think someday further into the future mine will. That brings me back to the question I asked and your response – you explained the process you went through well and how your husband came to the point of changing himself. I may get divorced and meet another man someday and perhaps at that point my husband will feel some loss or remorse but I can’t really make those things happen in hopes that he’ll realize his mistake later. In my case I still prefer that if my husband wants to divorce that he do all the work and if I meet a new partner then it won’t really matter at that point if he's sorry. The big question I keep asking is whether he can ever be a good person again. Not necessarily come back but to realize that abandoning his family, ignoring his job and getting fired, dating younger women for easy access to sex, etc… isn’t the right thing to do. He grew up in a religious family with caring and educated parents so this is not normal for someone like him to go wild and become so selfish and careless. I wish he’d change so our daughter can be proud of her dad, and so he can be a well-functioning person in society and not just some immature playboy that’s unemployed and broke. I wish he could change so we could consider reconciling, although after his behavior during the holidays I don’t see any hope for that. Anyway I appreciate your input and I like to think there’s always a little glimmer of hope.
Davide, thanks for your message! After the holidays things thankfully went back to normal. My husband called me a few days after he left and he was complaining about his sore throat and how he couldn't handle it at work. I had no sympathy to offer. We haven't spoken since then. It's really hard to know if he made all those threats when he was here just because he was having a bad day and wanted to take it out on someone or if he really meant them but I'll just wait and see. I still don't have an interest in filing for a divorce I don't want so I still prefer him to file if that's what he wants.
During the first week of the new year I went through a lot of drama with some friends who were having problems and needed support. I also met a few friends and I was so grief-stricken from the difficult holiday experience that I ended up talking a lot and they spent a lot of time listening and providing feedback. Everyone with whom I've spoken still believes my husband will be back and that this is a phase he's going through. One guy who is a mutual friend says he plans to sit down with him later on, once he gets further along in his mid-life crisis or whatever it is, to talk sense into him. Friends from the Middle East say they've seen this situation multiple times and the husband always returns to his wife in the end. Other friends say that I caused this situation myself by being too nice and forgiving throughout this ordeal. I had a lot of thoughts over the past few weeks about my faults and how I need to change myself, but on the other hand I also saw many of my friends who are married with their own faults and how their husbands don't leave them. It's a lot to process.
After talking daily with my closest friend, who is a man, for days-on-end after the holiday ordeal he pretty much convinced and forced me to sign up for a dating app two weeks ago. His argument is that my husband is so far gone that I have to try to meet new people. He kept telling me there's nothing wrong with it, etc.. Somehow I ended up creating a simple profile saying I was interested in friends and single dads....it felt so unnatural. Those of you who followed my thread can probably imagine this isn't really my style. I looked at profiles and it pretty much confirmed what I already suspected about dating. I received many expressions of interest (not sure what they should be called) and among them one guy appeared to be respectable and in a similar situation. He has a daughter the same age, he's separated, and lost hope of reconciling. He's originally from overseas and he has a high profile career that I was able to verify in real life so after a few messages we agreed to meet this week. He said he's happy to meet as friends so we'll meet and I'd be happy to know someone in real life who is going through this experience. I can tell this guy is really benign but aside from him there wasn't even close to even a small chance that'd I'd communicate with anyone else so I don't plan to continue with the app. I think for me if I date after getting divorced it would only be if someone came along that is such a unique fit and so exceptional that there'd be potential for marriage. That isn't to judge any of you who are dating or not dating because it's again a personal decision. I trust that my friend who suggested I do this has my best interest in mind and I'm trying to be more open minded and willing to feel uncomfortable and challenge my own beliefs but it's hard. Maybe I'll reconsider if I find myself divorced. I don't know.
All I can say is that the holidays were just so difficult. As if all those weeks of festivities weren't enough they have to set Valentine's Day as the next holiday. I'm thankful to share everything with my daughter and to offer her all my love but these holidays bring back a lot of memories. I'm sure many of you can relate.
I hope to focus more on posting on all of your threads in the coming days. I look forward to reading more of everyone's updates.
Hi all, after posting the two back-to-back messages above I remembered something else. I never wrote about attending a Divorce Care class back in the fall. It was at a church. I went one time but I found it to be different than expected. There is a curriculum that appears to be quite outdated and videos that appear to have been filmed in the 90's. The attendees were mostly in their 50's or 60's. I'm 40 so it's not as though I'm young but I just didn't feel as though it was the right class for me. I wish there was something else similar that appeals to a broader range of people because attending a class to get through all these feelings of grief is a great way to meet other people going through the same thing and to lend mutual support. An online forum is great but a live group would be even better! I bet some of your cities have such a thing.
