I did not had a good day yesterday. Having been so disciplined about it for maybe 3-4 weeks, I fell off the snooping wagon last night, and am of course now regretting it.
Although my W surprised me by making the decision in the middle of last week (11th) to stay and work on our MR, deciding it was the lesser of two evils to stay with me (!), and we do have a MC session booked for next Monday 23rd when we are back from vacation, of course nothing has changed between us, and with no R discussion we are just in limbo again until the MC acts as our guide.
In the meantime, the scepticism with which I took this decision of hers has increased with each day that passes. I still don't trust her, don't believe she is fully out of her relationship with the OM (even though she says 'there is no relationship' and 'she hasn't seen him since 19 May'), and I am seeing no sign of effort on her part to change anything about how she interacts with me. We are getting on ok generally, have been busy preparing for the vacation and keeping the kids happy, and watching a couple of shows on netflix together, as we've always done. But it feels like she is still pretending and putting on a show. Which I suppose is just what she's been doing for a while, and why would that change just because she's uttered some words about preferring to try to work things out rather than cause destruction by D'ing. I guess it wouldn't.
Anyway, last Thursday she was out for the afternoon. I guess shopping, but my untrusting mind nagged at me that Thursday was the day she usually saw the OM, and whilst she said she wasn't seeing him, there was definitely a window in which she could have done before picking up D12 from her friends late afternoon. I let it go, giving her the benefit of the doubt and trying hard to start the trust if we were going to start to work on the MR.
Friday I was out as I mentioned, and W was at home with the kids. So no concern there. But then something yesterday made me do a little snooping to double check, because I do still see her carrying around her handbag that I know holds her burner phone that she doesn't know I know about and she used to be in touch with OM after she realised I could monitor her regular phone. Why would she be so precious about that not leaving her side, even at night, if there wasn't something she was trying to conceal? She also has a new laptop - bought so she could do things on a pc that I don't have access to, on a new email address that she thinks I don't know about. That has stayed in her room hidden under her duvet ever since she bought it maybe 2-3 weeks ago.
So I did do a little checking, and what I saw was that,on Friday afternoon whilst I was out, she had sent herself an email from the address I can monitor to the one she thinks I don't know about. The email was her forwarding an email she had previously sent herself from her phone to her PC earlier in the year (January - when A was in full swing) with an attachment with 4 selfie photos on it - all of her in various compromising positions and varying degrees of undress. There really can be only one reason why she'd be sending herself these photos - so she could do something with them on her laptop with the OM.
I know I'm supposed to not care, and be detached, but this just goes against everything we are supposed to be working on, so surely it's only natural for me to lose it. I had a quick look at her burner phone while she was elsewhere - it's locked and I can't get into it, but I can see from the lockscreen that there are whatsapp messages to be read. And I can see that she was active on that phone after she went to bed. The only people that have that number are the OM, and maybe her sister. Yes, the messages could be from her sister, but it's just too much of a coincidence with the photos as well.
I admit I had little sleep overnight playing out how I would handle this knowledge, and concluded that I would simply sit on, use it to detach further, and then in our MC session next week, as part of the discussion on rebuilding trust - which surely will be one of the first issues we discuss - I will ask her about the OM and push to re-state my boundaries. She is the one that wanted to try to R rather than the alternative, she has to stop seeing the OM and help me rebuild trust, or else we have nothing and what's the point.
Having got up this morning, done my swim and started to prep to head off on vacation, I have to say I am much more ambivalent about whether or not she is continuing to see, speak or message the OM. PA or EA, whatever. I know 2 weeks ago I was all set to tell the kids and we were heading towards S and D. My head was straight, I was prepared to move on, and was not affected by her at all. I suppose the chink of hope she has given me about getting back towards R set me back a little (but not totally) in my feelings for her, but this new knowledge has shaken me out of that stupour, and made me realise (if I didn't already) that what you all have been saying is true.
She is reluctant to R, can't give up on the spark she got from her OM, and I just need to detach and GAL for me. If when I confront her in front of the MC she admits to the continued contact with the OM, shows some amount of regret (am sure it won't be remorse) and does want to try to piece, fine, but if she denies everything and pushes back or refuses to give up the OM, well I'll be prepared for that and suggest we need to go back to the other alternative whether she can face it or not. I will not agree to work on our MR unless she is NC with the OM. Period. And I will then try to enforce my boundaries and have her move out after telling the kids if she won't agree to that. At least, that's what I'm thinking today. I have a few days to let that settle, enjoy the vacation with the kids, detach and then consider where I am later in the week.
There. Not great DB'ing I know, but perhaps I ended up in the right place in my head in the end?
Am I so wrong to want to know she is serious about trying to R and help me rebuild my trust before starting out on this journey? Because if she isn't, I just don't see the point. It takes us both to want to do it. She knows that, and I don't see why it should be just me doing all the work on myself (per Vanilla's post) to try to improve our relationship and she is just expecting to continue to cake eat. How can want to get back together with someone who is still in such a fog and shows me such disrespect? I deserve someone who wants to be with me for me, not because it's the lesser of two evils....
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
As is often said here, every sitch is different. While true DBing would be to detach and stay detached that is easier said than done. When a WW says she wants to R and work on the MR, it can be an easy trap to fall into.
I think you are right, based on what you've said, that this is a delay tactic.She didn't want the kids to know, knew you were getting to the point of wanting to just move forward, and grasped at R and working on the MR as a way to slow things down again.
It is tough to navigate, I know because I've been there. My W was very reluctant to go MC. While we were in our first few sessions I was still snooping, and questioning her. Admittedly she still had things she was hiding. It made it difficult to decide which route to take.Ultimately I decided that I would just do what she was willing to do (even if reluctant) and let things fall where they may.
MC seemed like a waste at first. But as the MC gave us homework, and she actually started doing it!, it seemed like she slowly starting opening up to the possibility of really piecing and Ring. I remember in the first session, due to my snooping and knowing thing she didn't know I knew, I called for complete transparency. The MC said we weren't ready for that yet. I still didn't divulge what I knew.
Here is the thing 40, as we continued doing MC, as she did the homework, as we attended a marriage retreat and on the way home from the retreat started turning the corner, a lot of the issues just went away.
It is a strange side-effect sometimes. I've mentioned Mort Fertel before here. He is not a DBing proponent, but he is anti-divorce. One of his techniques is that you just don't talk about the problems in the marriage. You concentrate on the other areas of the MR. For some they'd argue this is pursuit, and maybe in a pure DBing setting it is, but there is something to be said for not beating the dead horse over the problems of the MR. As I said, the turning point on the way form the marriage retreat for us was to just hang out and start having fun again. We learned nothing on the marriage retreat that we didn't already know, but we did learn to just enjoy each other's company.
Look at the positives, she has agreed to working on the MR and going to MC. That is huge, lots of others here would give anything to have that occur, even if their spouses weren't completely into it at first. She doesn't want to tell the kids. Lots of other sitches here the WAS/WS has no problem completely destroying their families' and kids' live with what they are doing.
My advice is to go to MC. Institute the talk and touch charges I've mentioned to you before. Have a date night every week, or some other way that the two of you get out together away from the house, but don't discuss the MR! Just have fun, and enjoy each other's company.
But keep detaching. (I prefer the word self-differentiating) as being overly attached in a MR is never a good thing. Also keep engaging in GAL activities. And also make sure you keep up the 180s that you've instituted since BD.
You've got this 40. We all get week and snoop and pressure and pursue, or slip in GAL. The key is to after a mistake to get back up and go at it again!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks to you both, Steve and V. I think you're right - intel is important and does help me decide how to play things with her day to day. I did feel bad at the time, but can see that, used in the right way and not obsessively, 'checking' whilst I have the opportunity isn't something I should feel bad about.
We're now on vacation and shared a bed for the first time in 10 weeks last night. Was fine. A bit weird, but we both just went to sleep as we'd shared the evening with some friends and a fair amount of alcohol, so just both dealt with it. No words spoken, just goodnight - although come to think of it, I think that was just me. Whatever.
Steve - just on your helpful insight, our think our sitches are indeed similar in some respects. I've been catching up on yours and am up to about the end of April.. so still some way to go. Our W's do show similar tendencies, although I am certainly not expecting mine to suddenly initiate sex any time soon! No problem with her libido, just she was using it with the OM and not me... I'm hoping our MC sessions do help turn my W around (and me for that matter), but am feeling like this is unlikely given as you rightly point out, this is just delay tactics and she really isn't invested in the process - yet. Maybe the MC session will be a turning point.
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Ultimately I decided that I would just do what she was willing to do (even if reluctant) and let things fall where they may.
As regards our upcoming MC session, I have reached the same conclusion as you did about doing what she feels willing to do, but I do feel that in this first session I need to use the opportunity to push for transparency and test whether what she says about the OM relationship being over is really true. I'm debating as to whether to reveal that I know about the burner phone as part of that discussion as that will force her to be honest in front of the counsellor. Or I could just ask for transparency, get her to agree, then monitor whether she sticks to it with some continued 'checking'. What are your thoughts?
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Look at the positives, she has agreed to working on the MR and going to MC. That is huge, lots of others here would give anything to have that occur, even if their spouses weren't completely into it at first. She doesn't want to tell the kids. Lots of other sitches here the WAS/WS has no problem completely destroying their families' and kids' live with what they are doing.
You are absolutely right. These definitely are positives and a good start, even if she is doing both for selfish reasons - namely she is too scared and guilt-ridden to pull the trigger. But I'll take them. And maybe, just maybe, these will be a platform for wanting to work on the MR and at least try with me. I have to admit, I am not seeing any attempt on her part to make more effort with me since she decided this was the route she wanted to take, which to me is more evidence this was just a way to take the pressure off for now and not actually to do anything with it. For example, she's still acting like she has moved on, doing her own thing and not sharing quite major things with me that she is working on - like applying for new jobs, something which she happily told our friends over a drink last night, but hadn't told me herself. Like she's making a point of excluding me from things in her life. And when I said to her should I cancel our next mediation appointment since we are seeking to try to work on our MR, her precise words in response were "Yep, ok". Nothing more nothing less. Like she was resigned to this situation but not really convinced.
Anyway, I think we're all in agreement - she's reluctantly taking this route, and I'm going with it for now and we'll see how it plays out. Under the guise of a business meeting, I'm going to take one night / morning out our of the vacation to go to see my own IC (who is not far from where we are staying) to help prep for our MC on Monday. I feel that we both need a break from each other as well, as it is quite intense staying in a small cabin together and the two of us back sharing a bedroom.
I'll keep you posted, and thanks as always for your continued guidance and support. It feels good to have you there with me, and helps me get through the rough days that admittedly do seem to be getting less and less numerous.
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
So, quick update. We're back from vacation. All passed without incident mostly. Sleeping in the same bed was fine. No drama. No humour either, but it was just sleeping as V says.
I threw myself into having fun with the kids, had a fair amount of alcohol with our friends, exercised every day (running biking, walking) and generally took advantage of being away to get some time to rest and reflect. The interaction with my W continues to be false, strained, humorless on her part. She seems to making herself more distant from me every day - and as we were heading home even started to show the same tendencies in the way she spoke and treated me as before BD - short with me, nothing I can do is right, not looking me in the eye, no smiling. I just keep level and normal when she does that, but to me this is all just as before BD - her mood dictated by the fact that she no longer wants to be with me.
Since we've been home, just back to her old ways. Secretive, moody, straight on her burner phone to check her whatsapps (presumably from the OM..). She clearly does not want to make any effort with me, and if she is going to be like this, I don't see the point in the MC we have planned for Monday morning. We are just delaying the inevitable, and life is too short. I'm getting to the point where I'm feeling ambivalent about her completely - love is waning fast, respect for her going completely, and given her relationship with the OM (whether it's over or not), I'm not even sure if I want her back - never mind whether I can ever regain the trust she has smashed to pieces with a sledgehammer.
So question - should I raise this with her today and see where her head really is at, asking her if she really wants to do MC? Because her actions are speaking way louder than her words at this point, and it takes two to R.
I think you'll probably say 'no - see the MC and have the convo with a third party present' - and I get that. And that I should be more patient. I know. Just not sure if there's much point the way she is acting.
Thoughts appreciated today. We'll have less of an opportunity to discuss tomorrow as the kids are around.
_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
Hi 40! It seems you are in a better place now from when you started posting, good for you. You are in charge of your life, feeling stronger and confident. Then why not facing the facts? Your W lost respect for you and you are loosing for her now. That has some logic. I would wait for monday MC but it is just my opinion.
Glad you are where you are now 40. Keep it going!
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
Neffer - thanks so much for the pep talk and confidence boost. We all need that sometimes, no matter how up or down we are feeling - really appreciated. You're right - I am in a much better place, and feel much more in control - of me, rather than her, but that's a good start.
And I know that you and Steve both suggested waiting for the MC session, but actually, the way the day panned out on Saturday, it was just becoming untenable. She went out for a while, came back then locked herself away in her room without a word. It was ridiculous. And so obvious that she was just nowhere near in a mindset to work on our relationship. I went to find her. Knocked on her door and then opened it slightly without waiting - the door was barricaded shut with a suitcase that was in there. Says it all really.
I said "this is just ridiculous. let's talk". We did. She opened up and said everything that we all expected her to say. She'd made a snap decision about working on the relationship last week. As soon as she said it she felt trapped again. She knows she was a coward, but she doesn't feel any differently about needing space and not wanting to be with me. I validated, said I also couldn't continue as we were, and we agreed there and then that we would go back to the original plan to tell the kids and move forward with mediation etc. Both of us felt this was the right way forward. And the tension lifted immediately. We even started to work together on financial stuff relating to the mediation during the afternoon. It was like chalk and cheese. Maybe I got played a little, but to be honest, it was never going to end any other way, and so I was at peace pretty quickly with where we got to.
So yesterday, we told the kids. We actually had to wait all day to do it, as every time we were about to get the three of them in a room, one of them had some arrangement going on or a friend over. It took until 6pm, and by that time, I think they knew something bad was cooking, they just weren't sure what.
My W and I had the whole thing scripted and choreographed - and I offered to lead and say the critical words. I wanted to be in control. It was the most awful experience of my life. Awful. The kids were in total shock.When it came to it, I managed to get through the first sentence, before the three of them just completely lost it. My two boys (aged 17 and 15) who don't like to show their emotions were sobbing, couldn't look at us and wouldn't speak. My daughter (aged 12) was inconsolable, although she was amazing and managed to ask a whole bunch of very sensible questions about why, what, where etc.. We were quite text book about the messaging - its not their fault, they mustn't worry about taking sides, they must try to talk to us and ask questions etc. It was traumatic but we got through it, and later once every one had calmed down and they were processing the information, I think there was definitely a sense of relief that we'd got it out of the way and the kids came back to us for cuddles etc. I even reached out and hugged my W when we were alone as I could see she was upset - she hugged back, just briefly. This was the first physical contact between us in 3 months. It was nice, even if only in friendship and nothing else.
I'd be really interested to hear from any of you who have had similar experiences with teenage children and how you helped them through this - particular the boys who don't like to speak or open up, even one-to-one. For sure they will come to us over the next couple of days and ask things, but for now, we are letting them be.
My W and I actually went to the MC this morning anyway, even though the purpose of the session changed. It was helpful in that I heard my W say she felt so guilty as she knew this was all her doing, and that she was just being so cold towards me over the last couple of weeks, and so, as I also told my D12, this was a way to make sure we could all be happy in the future. She also said she wanted this to be amicable, and for us to stay close, and we aired our concerns about managing tensions if/when they arise during mediation. It was a healthy exchange. We may or may not go back to MC during the process, but I think what is clear is that we have re-opened communications between ourselves now that the tension has lifted.
And I can see that now the awful experience with the kids is over, and we just continue to monitor their well-being, my W is a completely different person. Like a weight has been lifted. She's smiling, chatty, sharing things, initiating conversations. She had been out this afternoon to register her name with some real estate brokers, which we discussed she would do. But then when we were alone this evening, she came over with a big smile on her face and whispered with excitement that she'd actually been in to see a property already. Like this was the best thing that has happened to her in years. She went to get the details of the house, talked me through her notes and thoughts, and wanted to get my views. Like I'm now no longer the husband, the adversary - I'm the close friend who she wants to share news with. I played along, gave her my opinion, and was helpful. It was a very surreal experience, particularly when just 2 days earlier she was locked in her room desperately trying to stay away from me.
I get it that she now has what she wants - and this makes her happy. I just don't think she gets that whilst I'm going along with all of this because I was miserable the other way, I am just not where she is at. She has hurt me beyond anything anyone has ever done before. She has treated me like sh*t for the last 4 months - she's in, she's out, she's in, she's out. Yet now everything is rosy, and we can be friends....she can't see that's a big leap for me. I do still love her, and helping her move out is not easy for me. But I do want to stay close to her, I'm happy she wants to share things with me - it will help our relationship going forward, and will be good for the kids to see. But it still sticks in my throat that she has suddenly flicked a switch and is now a rejuvinated sleeping beauty bouncing around the house, rather than the Wicked Witch of the West, with her broomstick constantly swatting me away.. (or some other/better analogy!).
I guess that's what WAW's are like - when they get what they want, they are nice again....
So anyway, I'm ignoring all that. Will help her where I can. Focus on making sure the kids are ok. Continue to detach (funnily enough, for some reason, I now care very little about whether or not the OM is on the scene - although I don't think he is), and I'm planning lots of GAL as I start to share the news with my close friends. Should be a fun period... kind of.
The next chapter in 40's rollercoaster journey is about to start. Although 'limbo' can be an LBS's friend, it actually feels good to be out of it today. I can see light at the end of a long tunnel, and am in good shape to work my way towards it. Thanks to all the guidance from you all. I feel in a good place, even if it's not the place I was originally hoping for.
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_______________________________________________ M47 W50 T-21 yrs M-19 Yrs S17 S15 D12 Found out about A 04/12/18 BD 04/15/18 Admitted A, name of AP and separate rooms 04/29/18 Told kids 07/22/18
