However, most A have a shelf life. And it tends to be relatively short.
Yes, but how short is relatively short? I've read six months, I've read a year or more. As far as I can tell, it is now about 7 to 7.5 months and I have known for 5.5 of them. In all reality, it could go on for years I would suppose.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
In reality the feeling like losing is the best chance of winning.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
M: 25 T:33 Me: 48 W: 49 S24, D21, D18, D15, S8 All living at home while going to school A confirmed: 12-25-17 EA Definite PA Probable
However, most A have a shelf life. And it tends to be relatively short.
Yes, but how short is relatively short? I've read six months, I've read a year or more. As far as I can tell, it is now about 7 to 7.5 months and I have known for 5.5 of them. In all reality, it could go on for years I would suppose.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
In reality the feeling like losing is the best chance of winning.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
You've been married for 25 years, so even a year is relatively short. Yes some go longer, but usually not. Things born out of deceit and corruption usually do not live long.
What I meant is that DBing feels like losing. Ironically though it gives you the best chance of winning.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
A lot has changed since my last post just over two weeks ago, so I'm going to make this as short as I can. This is my fourth and shortest version of this post, but the biggest things are there.
I think my W's A may be over...
I would take anyone's opinion on this, especially female friends out there since they'd have bettet insight into a woman's mind.
As of the Thursday before my last post the A was still going on. D21 "fixed" my W's phone for her and saw the thread betwen the OM and my W. D21 told me this the following Sunday and said the few messages she saw indicated this.
Friday, the day of my last post, my W went to a concert with her enabling friend and another friend. She was texting me throughout the evening. It first started by telling me she made it there safely. A little while later she asked if I missed her. I assumed this was for the OM, but I played along.
The texts kept coming, asking if I thought a certain instrument was sexy, about one of the bands, one of the singer's hands were "girly" and how she always thought my hands and arms were sexy. The texts kept getting a little more personal and eventually included a few things that each of us missed about the way things used to be.
Once she got home I started getting ready for bed, but she asked me to sit on the couch with her, something I haven't done since this all started, so I did. We talked while we watched a movie. She reached out and took my hand at one point too.
The next day, S8 had a noon soccer game as well as a campout and my W and I had a wedding to attend. Needless to say it was a busy day.
After the game the OM called my W while he was shopping for the campout. He played on her sympathies, convincing her he had hurt his back and needed help lifting something. She told him she would help him after she dropped us off at home, but I told her we would all go to save time since I couldn't talk her out of it.
When we got there the OM barely had any of the shopping done and really turned it on to the point I could tell he was faking, or at least embellishing the amount of pain he was in. My W felt sorry for him and proceeded to do the shopping for him even though we were on a time crunch.
Once we made it to the checkout, she asked the OM how he was going to unload it all, and then volunteered me to do it when I took S8 out to the campground. I told her I was just planning on going out to set up the tent and take S8 out with me after the wedding. She was instantly mad and ready to fight. I calmly and firmly told her we would talk about it later and left it at that.
On the way home the conversation turned to the OM and his back. I pointed out that my W and I both have bad backs but never act like he he did when they go out. We suck it up and deal with it. She agreed but sort of defended him.
Once we got home I pulled S8 aside and ask him if he wanted to go even though the OM would be there. He said he wanted to and had a plan to avoid the OM. I then went to talk to my W about it. When we talked we figured out that no one had told me that plans had changed so I was going on old information. Since S8 wanted to go and had a plan, I packed up S8 and headed to the campground. We had about one hour forty five minutes until the wedding started.
When I arrived at the campground the OM seemed to be recovering quite nicely in the hour since i last saw him. I walked S8 over to where he was and the OM started pointing to places I could set the tent up while he was twisting at the waist. I told him I didn't have time to set up the tent, so I was just dropping S8 off and would be back later.
By the time I got home we had less than 45 minutes to be to the wedding, and we arrived there minutes before it started.
On the way in, my W took my arm on her own. Since these people are like family to her and only one of them knows about the A, I assumed this was just for show. During the ceremony, she sat close to me and put her hand on my leg, where it remained the entire time.
We left for the reception and on our way out my W took my hand. She also did this on the way in to the reception. On the way in i noticed the necklace she was wearing. It was a gold herringbone which has "I love you" imprinted on it that I bought for her in High School. Once seated, along with her enabling friend, we all started talking. A short time later, my W put her hand under the table and placed it on my knee. It remained there until dinner was served.
As the evening went on, my W kept giving me more and more attention and less to her friend. Eventually we wandered outside to the deck overlooking the lake we spent a lot of time on as kids. We remeneced, talked about us now and a bit about the future.
After we came in, a slow song came on and she asked me to dance. We didn't say much, but at one point she pulled me in close and hugged me. When she did, I said "I still do love you, you know." She hesitated then told me she loved me too.
Once back at the table we sat facing each other talking. My W then leans in and kisses me. Just a small one, nothing major. As we talked, I commented on the ring she was wearing on her left ring finger. It was a ring I bought for her on our honeymoon. She replied "you need to get my wedding rings resized so I can.." She didn't finish the sentence. I asked what she said, but she wouldn't repeat it.
The evening went on like this. Her holding my hand almost all of the time, giving me 90% of her attention and kissing me three times.
It started getting to the time I needed to leave to go to the campout when the OM text her asking where I was. She told him I would be leaving in a few minutes. I could tell that she didn't want to leave and the reception would be going for a while longer, so I told her she should stay if she wanted. When I left, she walked me to the car. When we said goodbye, she gave me a big hug and a long kiss. ILYs were exchanged.
I went home to grab our things and headed out. A few minutes after I left, my W texts asking if I was on my way. About fifteen minutes later she calls me to ask how far away I was. The OM was bugging her about it. She made the statement the she doesn't know what his problem is. He knew a month ago that I would be late getting out there and he was ok with it.
It had been raining off and on all day and when I got there it was a steady drizzle. The OM was standing by the fire pit with another leader and had his foot on top of the two foot high concrete barrier around the fire. I asked where S8 was and the OM didn't answer. The other leader told me. When I found S8, I gave him the choice of sleeping in the car or going home and coming back for fishing the next day. He was soaked and cold, so he chose to go home.
When we arrived home my W was there. We sat on the couch and talked for awhile while watching tv. She took my hand for awhile and then started stroking my hair. During the conversation I told her about the OM's actions and recovery. She didn't seem surprised at all. She also asked me to have her wedding rings sized so she could wear them.
The next day, we arrived back at the camp early, talked to a few people and then headed over to the fishing spot. While we were waiting for people to arrive, the OM called asking where we were. My W said he was basically saying we were late and holding everybody up. She wasn't pleased.
The DNR was there and put on a presentation for the kids. They were teaching them about fishing, types of fish, conservation, etc. OM kept interrupting and eventually my W turns to me and makes a snide comment about him.
The rest of the time we were there my W was being openly affectionate towards me, even in front of the OM. Not "get a room" affectionate, but like a married couple would be. He did something else to annoy her and then when we were leaving the fishing spot to go get S8's things, he downright pi$$ed her off. He was being rude and condescending towards her and I could see her anger rising. He didn't. I debated stepping in and being the "alpha" by defending her or just let him keep digging a hole for himself. Her fuse was short that day and before I could say anything, she went off, putting him in his place. He still didn't know she was mad and kept going.
We went back to the campsite to get S8's things and OM tried talking to her again. She gave him a dirty look and didn't say a word. She talked about it all the way home, getting more and more angry.
Later that evening we were playing a game with the kids and she asked me if I was going to get her rings sized. I told her I would only if she was planning on wearing them. She replied that is why she wants them sized.
When I got home from work the next day, my W told me about the fight she had with the OM that day. She told me that he had text her the night before, but she ignored it. That morning he text her again and she told him she was busy and would get back to him later. When she finally did, he said that he apparently did something to make her mad. This made her even more upset and she says she let him have it. She also told me that he started apologizing profusely.
My W went on to tell me about a Facebook post of his which basically was asking for sympathy for his back and people to tell him what a good person he was. He told the story of having to shop all alone, go camping and then take his kids to a fair and ride rides with them, all with severe back pain. She started in about how he was faking, etc. She also said he gets treated poorly at home, so he's just looking for positive attention, so she did defend him a bit.
The next day I notice she is wearing her grandmother's wedding rings. I ask if they are substitutes for hers and she said they are until I get hers sized. She has worn them every day since.
She has also been texting me everyday at work, sometimes all day. The conversations are sometimes just basic contact, sometimes more. Every time she tells me that she loves me.
We have had a lot of personal conversations and some R talks, but nothing about the A at this point. Some of them through text, some in person. She has told me she loves me, she is finally feeling close to me again and she never wants to let things get "out of hand" again.
We have both promised to be completely honest with each other about how we are feeling, good or bad, big or small. This goes for everything else for that matter. She has been transparent about who she is talking to and what is being said. One evening we went to dinner and she told me that the old High School boyfriend she has been talking to has made suggestive comments and has propositioned her. She said she handled it and didn't want to tell me because she knew I would get mad, but she thought I should know about it.
Other things she has said include she can't wait to see me when I get home from work and she misses me when we are apart, which she does virtually on a daily basis. She has also told me that she doesn't care where we are as long as we are together and "the bad times are behind us, only good times ahead."
She has also been very affectionate.
Last week she told me that she wasn't going to get the tattoo she wants to get with her enabling friend because I don't want her to. When I told her there was a reason I didn't want her to, she said that she knew and gave me the exact reason. As it turns out, D21 told her why and she listened. She went on to ask me if I would get a tattoo with her to show our recommitment to one another.
She started sleeping in our bed with me again over two weeks ago. She did this without me asking her to.
As far as contact with the OM, I see no real evidence of it. My W doesn't stay up late texting anymore and comes to bed at a reasonable hour. When I am home she texts some but not a lot. She hasn't been going out without me either. There have been a few things she has had planned for a few months and those are the only things she has done.
So, does it sound like it is over? I'm being cautious about it because it seemed to happen very quickly, but then again, her attitude towards me changed very quickly in the beginning. I don't want it to be an act and me buy in to it, but everything seems very genuine. She is acting like my W of old and in many ways better.
M: 25 T:33 Me: 48 W: 49 S24, D21, D18, D15, S8 All living at home while going to school A confirmed: 12-25-17 EA Definite PA Probable
Wow rminer, this reminds me a lot of my W when she started coming back to the MR. I think this is all a good sign. I think you are right to be wary, but I will say just give it time. Keep up DBing. GAL, 180s, remain detached (I prefer "self differentiated"), and being the S only a fool would leave.
If she continues to be consistent over time, you'll know it is real.
Your D21 sounds like a gem! You should be sooooo grateful to have such an intelligent, mature D. If you start a new MR with your W it sounds like a lot of it would be due to your D21. And that is not a bad thing.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I read a lot of all 3 of your threads. It looks like you have been on quite an adventure and you have done a great job. I truly admire how you handled yourself throughout that time. I would say your W's A has been over for a while, or at least it was obvious to her that the A is doomed. IMO, she has been trying for a while to rekindle your M.
One can never be sure, but I think the signs have been pretty clear.
Quote:
So, does it sound like it is over? I'm being cautious about it because it seemed to happen very quickly, but then again, her attitude towards me changed very quickly in the beginning. I don't want it to be an act and me buy in to it, but everything seems very genuine. She is acting like my W of old and in many ways better.
It sounds like it is over and you won. She definitely wants to work on your M. Now the question is what you want. It is probably a stupid question given all the efforts you made over the last 6-7 months. You are right to be cautious. You need to figure out what R you want going forward. It may have been a simple question when she was with OM, but it no longer is.
I would not be afraid that it is an act. Was she acting happy and loving when the A started? Why would she start now?
You still have a few issues to tackle. You need to figure out what you want out of your R. You cannot pretend this crisis never happened and move on. You also need to figure out how to bring it up. Do you want to talk about the A now when she will likely not run away? That was your intention a few months ago.
The main arguments of not bringing up the A are clear. Instead of enjoying one of the nicest period of your marriage, you open a cesspool instead. Also, you will show (mainly to you and your kids) that you trust her and and are ready to have forgive her.
The pros of bringing up the A are several:
1) If you do not bring it up now, you won't be able to bring it up in the future. You basically silently accept it and move on. It does not mean that you condone it (many people here would say so). She realizes what she has done and it is not something she would easily do again. However, you have to keep quite about it. If you start this topic of the A later in your R, the ramifications will be such that it will dissolve your M. You have to be ready for this.
2) The main problem for me is the series of lies she told your Ds. This is a huge issue. Not sure if that is something she will be able to handle on her own. Also not sure if that is something you want to leave her handling on her own. She has damaged her R with your kids and this is not something you can ignore. They will have much harder time forgiving her than you, especially because she continuously lied to them.
Good luck! You still have stuff to fix, but you certainly have accomplished a lot you can be proud with.
I read my post from yesterday, and I want to clarify one thing. You have to figure out for yourself what R you want going forward. You have to figure out how to ask for it. You have to figure out how to tell her that going back to the old pre-crisis R is unacceptable and will likely lead to another crisis. You have to ask her what she expects from the R and you respectively as well.
In general, it will be easier if you come clear that you know about the A. You don't want to accuse her (she had her reasons for the A and wanting to leave you, you need to respect that). You may want to point out that you do not want to have to go through that again.
I got through a very similar situation, over a longer period of time. My wife went through the same stages as yours - hostility, alienation, then appeasement and reconciliation. At that time, I knew that the A had been over for a while. So, I decided not to bring it up at all (she knew I knew though). But we had some serious R talks.
I agree with ovrrnbw. This is something that needs to be rectified. No matter what. His mere presence is going to continue to cause you angst and resentment. I know we've talked before about finding a new BS troop. If it is truly over between her and him then your W will support that.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Wow rminer, this reminds me a lot of my W when she started coming back to the MR. I think this is all a good sign. I think you are right to be wary, but I will say just give it time. Keep up DBing. GAL, 180s, remain detached (I prefer "self differentiated"), and being the S only a fool would leave.
If she continues to be consistent over time, you'll know it is real.
Your D21 sounds like a gem! You should be sooooo grateful to have such an intelligent, mature D. If you start a new MR with your W it sounds like a lot of it would be due to your D21. And that is not a bad thing.
I'm still trying to go slow and be cautious even though I want to dive right back in. The change back to me appears to have happened so quickly, it is a little hard to believe it is real. I know these changes build up slowly over time, but it was like a switch was flipped.
Her actions are matching her words, at least on the surface, so yes that is a good thing I think. It's only been just shy of three weeks, so I'm not completely confident yet. I know sandi and others have said a woman only has room for one man in her heart, so I need to figure out if I am truly that man.
I am very proud to have D21 as my D. She, as well as D15, have been extremely supportive. Not to discount my other three kids, but those two have helped the most. D21 has always been willing to talk to me and be brutally honest with myself and my W and D15 has been there willing to simply hang out with me and let me get my mind off of things.
I couldn't ask for anything more from those two.
M: 25 T:33 Me: 48 W: 49 S24, D21, D18, D15, S8 All living at home while going to school A confirmed: 12-25-17 EA Definite PA Probable
You are right, the decision was clear before, but now not so much.
I know I do want her back, but I have always told myself that would also depend on her reaction when I confront. If she denies and continues to lie it will make it very hard to trust her again. If she comes clean, then we have a solid starting point.
Confronting will reopen wounds that are starting to heal for both of us, but will give me piece of mind. I can't decide if that piece of mind is for my ego, letting her know she really didn't pull one over on me, or is it something I need to move forward.
I definitely have some thinking to do on this.
As far as the kids go, that is going to be a lot trickier. D21 seems good with my W after their fight/discussion about a month ago. S24 I think is good too because he stayed out of it. D15 and S8 are on their way to forgiving because of her changes over the past month and a half. I have talked to them, as I have said in the past, and told them that they need to do what they can to maintain their R with my W, so I wasn't going to interfere.
D18 is the one I am worried about. She still is lashing out at my W and doesn't seem to be very happy with me lately. She has always been the one kid who migrated towards me over her mother and we have always had a very good R. Lately she has withdrawn from me. I've tried getting her to talk, but she won't. I'm just going to have to give her more time.
M: 25 T:33 Me: 48 W: 49 S24, D21, D18, D15, S8 All living at home while going to school A confirmed: 12-25-17 EA Definite PA Probable
