JD, good that you're seeing some positive signs. It sounds like your approach is working, so stick with it and give it time. Expect her to go Ice Princess on you again because it probably will happen, and if you're ready for it then it shouldn't be too much of a shock. Are you GALing? Maybe you can expand on what you're doing there. It's important that you have a life outside of W both for you and to take pressure off of her.
Hi Stander - I do expect to make mistakes in the 180s, and W will likely respond with a lack of trust in the changes ("go ice princess"). And, we haven't resolved everything, so once one of us steps on a third rail in our R, we'll see if we can manage it.
Our levels of individual anxiety are turned way down right now, and I didn't realize that I had control of that dial.
I am GALing to some degree...going out with friends here and there, business trip this week, etc.
One thing I realized was that W was doing more GAL than I was. Someone told me that women tend to do this a little better than men do. The key thing for me was realizing that I can make plans, and she could participate or not, but I wouldn't necessarily change my plans as a result. She's plenty happy with me doing my own thing, but then again, I don't do it enough.
I also bought a few new nice shirts to wear out. I didn't plan on wearing one while out with her, but it worked out that way and I'm ok with it. She noticed.
Sorry, I have gotten behind in my posting, but I wanted to respond to your earlier question. I will copy & paste, as a way to review the original questions.
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I don't know how to square Sandi's comment with DB methodology.
This is part of my quote you took from another thread:
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I don't discourage anyone from making self improvements. However, I can't honestly say your improvements will bring your W around. She has to turn lose of the resentment for past offenses, along with her disillusion ideas about M. She has to be responsible for her own happiness. Until then, you could be nearly perfect and it would not change her mindset.
Then this statement from you:
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However, DBing and "Sandi's rules" smile kind of run counter to that.
Are you saying the dynamic is different when long-held resentments are involved?
Well, I'm stumped b/c I don't see why you think it counters DBing or the "rules". The DBer is never promised that his self improvements will solve the issues in his MR. He is told that the changes should be for himself. If they are just to woo the W back into the MR, they will not last. Plus, if she is a wayward W, she has her own issues to work out. Working out those issues are part of her heavy lifting she has to do.
The WW will blame her H for most everything. She will twist the truth around and make him feel he was responsible for her actions. If he is not careful, his "changes" become his way of taking the blame for everything and he just wants to appease her and get on with their lives........but, that's not the correct way. If she does not take ownership of her actions, their R will not be successful. She has her own stuff, just as he has his.......and we all have to work out what is in our heart/mind/attitude.
He may improve some current issues that has been a source of resentment for her, but he can't undo the past. She has to let it go. If she refuses to let it go, it will block her loving feelings from completely healing and giving herself completely to him. If he's smart, the biggest change will be the dynamics in their relationship and it will get him her respect. When he commands respects, it can change the dynamics in their R.
The MR can reap the blessings of his improvements, but his personal improvements is not the total fix-it packet for what was broken in the MR. It can fix him, but there's no promise it will fix the M. She is an individual with her own set of problems that she has to work out.
Making self improvements is just one part, of several parts of the whole M. I don't see how that revelation counters DBing. Unless you can be more specific, it's unclear to me what you mean.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hi Sandi - Thanks for circling back. This was actually the part that led to my question:
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I tell you this b/c I feel sorry for guys I see working so hard to change, thinking it will get back the W. Whether they admit it or not, I believe that's the real intent for their changes..at least, initially. So, go ahead and improve, but don't think that's going to change her.
This was in the context of resentments and WWs. Assuming the W has stated resentments, and continues to harbor them, it seemed like you were saying that under those specific circumstances, it's kind of hopeless for the situation to turn around, and even though a H can make changes, it ultimately won't matter to the W or the R.
I think I'm reading 2 things into this: 1) DBing at its core seems to be about changing yourself, your approach to your life and the R, taking personal responsibility and accountability and making yourself the best person you can be. That in turn may result in your W or WW to pause/take notice/wake up. This is oriented in hope..."it takes one to tango" for instance.
2) The "rules" are a specific set of tools/guidelines that speak to a WW situation, kind of a subset of DBing. These are, in many ways, a lot more detailed and practical than what's found in the book. This is slightly less hopeful, largely because you (to your credit, I am honestly amazed, and they helped me) are able to provide a more clear view into the WW's mindset and what works and doesn't work. Sometimes the H can do everything right and it still doesn't matter. It happens.
The phrase "I feel sorry for guys who are working so hard to change"... while we're trying to get our heads around changing and taking one to tango...felt like it maybe it wasn't even worth trying. At least that's the way I read it. And I didn't know if the extra slice of resentment from the W made it that much more hopeless.
I understand and agree with your explanation though. We can't undo the past, I suspect that resentments sit everywhere, and the W (both partners, actually) have to genuinely let it go.
Mellow JDub is the way to be. I am: - Continuing to be mellow, not get rattled by kids/schedules going awry - Not responding to her texts right away, not always being available by phone when she calls - Doing slightly more around the kitchen - Finding my own things to do with friends, and she can join me or not...I don't press - Enjoying our couple friends without worrying about the small stuff...such as: why isn't she sitting next to me? What should I read into that? - Not initiating any talk about R at all.
W is now: - Reaching out for my hand to hold it in the mornings/evenings, - Buying new decor for our home, very interested in my input - Sending me very nice texts after we do new things together like a new fitness routine - Light kissing - Wanting to talk about R and how happy she is with the changes she's seeing. We're talking more, without blame or anger, than we have in a really long time. - Super excited about planning a family trip for the winter ("it's been a really long time since I've wanted to go on a trip with you")
I still have not brought up sex, but really want to at least talk about intimacy. I'm not sure I know how any more because it's been so anxiety-provoking in our R. For perspective, it's been just under a month since she last brought up wanting a D and it being "inevitable." Right now it seems not so inevitable, but I don't want to hit that third rail...
The phrase "I feel sorry for guys who are working so hard to change"... while we're trying to get our heads around changing and taking one to tango...felt like it maybe it wasn't even worth trying. At least that's the way I read it. And I didn't know if the extra slice of resentment from the W made it that much more hopeless.
The guys I feel sorry for working so hard to change.....only to be disappointed it didn't work to draw the WW back into the MR, are those who are focused on appeasing their WW, instead of really making changes on the man himself.
Do you know what the first thing on his list of "changes" most of these guys write? Doing more to help around the house. If she was not wayward, it might have some benefits if this has been a major sore issue. However, it doesn't change that part of a man that truly has an impact on the MR. Helping around the house will do nothing for a WW.
The changes he needs to make is to end his nice guy syndrome, take charge, become the leader, command respect, and stop acting like a "Yes Dear" whipped H who is scared to stand up to his W who is a spoiled, entitled, bully. In short, he needs to grow some b@lls, and change the dynamics in the relationship. He does that by changing who he is inwardly. The changes he needs to make are on the inside of who he is as a man.
This other stuff, like helping out around the house, is useless. You think a WW is going to melt at the feet of some guy who is running around doing housework? No, she is not attracted to that guy. She is way past the point of where chores is enough to impress her feelings toward him.
By the time the H finds his way to the DB board, his WW has reached the rebellious stage. It will take a man who is not afraid to lose her, and not afraid to stand toe to toe with her and not back down. It will take a man who will not allow her to belittle him, show disrespect in front of his kids, etc. These are the changes that count, b/c if it helps to get his WW back......they will have a much better MR. If it doesn't get her back, he walks away with his dignity and self-respect, and feeling more like a real man than before this all started.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi - I understand and that makes sense. The objective is lasting change and not as a lure for the W to come back.
I agree that housework isn't going to solve any problems with a WW. You may be doing all the housework imaginable, but to paraphrase Paul Simon, a person hears what they want to hear and disregards the rest. For some reason housework seems to be only visible when something is not done.
In my case, think I got "lucky" in that my W got into a car accident, was genuinely rattled, and that seemed to open her eyes a little more. Plus, I changed behaviors - to me they were modest - and that seems to be improving things. We've gone from "our M is failed, fried, done" to "I'm so happy to be married to you" in three weeks.
She "feels like we're a team again" but I don't totally trust it yet. We dealt with cr@p for a very long time. I'm not on eggshells at present, but sometimes it does feel like if I rock the boat, the "good feelings bank" will be emptied. Teammates don't do that!
Quick update...W is, at present, very into our relationship. She has been happy while she's with me, and based on the volume of texts I receive, wanting to be with me when she's apart from me. She's been understanding when I get irritated or stressed out. We've even had sex and been able to talk about it.
I've continued to be mellow and easy going and providing few opinions on things like decor and stuff that means a lot to her...and it's actually a lot easier to just not care.
The way she says "I love you" is very different than before. It's proactive on her part, and she seems genuinely grateful for me being in her life.
6 weeks ago she was talking adamantly and with full certainty about divorce. This seems like a very sudden change after literally years of stress and anxiety on both of our parts.
Maybe the fog has lifted. Maybe the AD meds worked their way out of her system finally. I'm not totally sure what to trust here.
[quote=JDub]Quick update...W is, at present, very into our relationship. She has been happy while she's with me, and based on the volume of texts I receive, wanting to be with me when she's apart from me. She's been understanding when I get irritated or stressed out. We've even had sex and been able to talk about it. ^^^
I've continued to be mellow and easy going and providing few opinions on things like decor and stuff that means a lot to her...and it's actually a lot easier to just not care.
Yes it's harder to care b/c it triggers effort. (Don't take that the wrong way, just saying).
In the large home we had, I worked very hard painting and decorating. I painted 9 rooms myself over about 3 months. Years later, H painted the wall of one room, and asked me if I "noticed anything" so I had to heap praise on him. At the time it amused me (and troubled me a bit too), that he needed accolades for doing a fraction of what I had, but it meant something to me that he made any effort.
When he complimented my choices OR offered his opinion, it mattered b/c that's what team mates do in their home. It's not the wife's home, it's the family home. And decorating it so that the family would enjoy it and feel some pride in it, was an expression of my love for them. An "acts of service" love language, actually.
Anyhow, just thought I'd chime in on this b/c you said it's easier not to care. Yes it is. Helps for it to be appreciated.
The way she says "I love you" is very different than before. It's proactive on her part, and she seems genuinely grateful for me being in her life.
6 weeks ago she was talking adamantly and with full certainty about divorce. This seems like a very sudden change after literally years of stress and anxiety on both of our parts.
it is a sudden change. And so far, not long lived. So you're wise to be cautious but don't be a wet blanket either. After all, your changes are relatively new & somewhat sudden as well, correct? In theory, Could she make the same case for not trusting your changes?
Notwithstanding all this, your w spent time with her dad, in his new retirement home. That's a milestone in life. Who knows what that triggered?
Try to enjoy it. Excess scrutiny is one of the things I think you wanted to work on, not over thinking, etc.
And it can put a cloud on things that could, instead, be enjoyed. God knows, life is short. Embrace the gifts you get.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
