I had to read your post a couple times and I am confused on how to answer, thus my procrastination in responding. If I were to write a long list of concrete objectives and goals, I would say that we have met almost all of them. We started Retrouvaille and that we need to complete, otherwise we have "done the things to do." So I don't struggle with feeling that we are not making progress. We have made a tremendous amount of progress!
What I am struggling with is the concept of forgiveness, what it means to me personally, and how to achieve it. This evolves over time as I research it, think about it, and as my healing from the sitch (PTSD) naturally happens over time. What I am learning is that "forgivenss" holds different meaning and more so has a different value for each one of us. I am at a place where I am trying to accept that my process is a veerryyy slllooowwww one. This is not just about the degree of the assault that this had on me, but my ability to cope, accept, and let go of the emotions surrounding it.
Good communication to me can be broken down in two parts. The first part being that one side is free to express themselves safely, openly, and honestly, and that it is done in a respectful, clear, and concise way. The second part is that the other side can listen, hear, and understand, and then that they are able to take in and process that information. Basically, we svck at all of it!
I think this is mostly because, as I said above, we have been practicing bad communication for 3 years. The poor communication has been fueled by the hard feelings. The more we practice, the more we have cemented these habits. Like any bad habit, when you practice it, you reinforce it further.
What I like about the Retrouvaille program is that it forces you to break the habit. The program teaches you how to communicate openly about your feelings and how to listen and take in your partner's feelings. I think the more you can practice these techniques, the more you gain understanding and empathy towards your partner. If we can develop these new and better habits, then the harder issues become less triggering and more manageable. If done well, ultimately this creates intimacy needed to have a loving and close M.
That is my hope anyhow :-)
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Thank you for your honest look at your M and how difficult it is to make things work after a seperation and A. I am closer than I've ever been to R (thanks to detaching) and have some of the same thoughts. It's good to know both that these thoughts are normal and that I am experiencing this because I choose to. I can leave at any time and it will be ok.
Can see that you haven't posted on your own thread for more than 6 months. Would like to hear an update, if you are ok with providing one. Love to hear succes stories here ;-)
M:46 WXW:40 T:20 M:13 D3,D8,D10 BD:11/12/16 D:12/14/16 OM confirmed 01/20/17
Thank you. One of the reasons that I post is because I know that when most of us come here we are only desperate to get our M back. That is usually our only goal. I think it is helpful for posters to see how things do change after the S comes back, because really it is not rainbow pooping unicorns, but a lot of hard work and heart ache. When my H DB me, I fell hard and my focus was on if he was coming back and what I could do to get him back. That energy doesn't work to bring them back and if anything it pushes them further away. Nobody wants an insecure, needy, desperate person, do they? Mostly it is self torturous and digs us deeper in our pit of despair. Posting also helps me to journal my feelings and has been quite therapeutic.
I cannot go back and tell my wounded self these things, so telling all of you feels second best :-) So even if your S comes back, even if you both want to work things through, and even if you navigate your way through peicing--even then--that old M, pre-DB, is gone. You never get the innocence back. That is a hard pill to swallow. It will never be the same. It behooves you the most to accept it is over and grieve the end of it now. While there is so much of my H's character that is the same, the dynamic between us is different. We have to decide now how to have a new and better M, despite all the painful history, because it doesn't just disappear with reconciliation.
The reason I believe in this DB philosophy is that in my mind it is the only way to heal and move forward. There is nothing you can do to force or entice them back. The only thing you can do is set them free. In the mean time, what you can control is yourself. You can choose each day to love yourself, process the grief, and work towards becoming the best version of you. Let's face it, as our M fell apart, we also know that we lost our ideal self in there. This is your time to face that.
As you begin to grow and change, over time (perhaps months or years), they will most likely notice. It is usually then that they decide to look back at you, and the M, and have second thoughts. Although many don't. And often when they do, we have gotten stronger and healthier, and now we may not like what we see anymore! If they simply come back without having done their own work, then it may not be good enough for us. It takes two strong partners to navigate piecing successfully.
If they don't come back? Then you still get to have success. The measuring stick of success changes when you come here. It is now about you and your own journey. The better you does not want a person that can and will hurt you and not look back. A better you doesn't want a liar, a cheater, and a person that can walk out on their family. The better you is now ready for a better other.
Did I just create some sort of DB commercial? lol. I mean it tho. .... Let it gooooo ....
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Thought I would update. Not much new to report. We are back in Retrouvaille doing the post-sessions. I don't have much motivation to do the daily homework, but I know that I need to. I just crave some normalcy, whatever that means. I try not to make my M and working on it the main focus of my life. I am trying to create balance. My kids and their activities consume a lot of my attention. I have been better at not letting my mind go to negative thinking or dwelling on the past.
We are well past the 2 year mark of piecing and I will say it is getting easier. The triggers fade. Even when I have reminders or think about hard times, I don't have much of an emotional reaction. I feel confident and strong. I feel like my old self again, or maybe better. I say better because I have a resiliency that I didn't have before any of this. With that also comes some sadness tho because I no longer have that romance/fantasy of what my M could be. It also comes with clearer lenses to vision what I want in a M and partner, because I am no longer hanging on out of fear.
I was told that XOW is getting married to her OM2 (or whatever he is). She left her H for my H, and when my H left her, she moved on to this OM2 and moved in with him in a couple months (they each have 2 kids, so I can't even imagine). I don't actually care about what she does, but it does reinforce how full of chit she is in general. Before she had the A with my H, she would boast to our circle of friends that when her youngest turned 18, she would leave her H, travel, and have some sort of glam single life. She told us (and my H when they were together) that she should have never gotten M and wouldn't again. She prided herself on being different than the type of woman that needs a man. In reality, she has always been with a man and was even engaged before her XH. She is needy and shallow (unable to look at herself) and thinks that she can paint some false image of herself. My H and I had a brief discussion about this; all in all, the more time passes, the more he sees her character more clearly and what a delusion the entire A was. Sigh.
So there are several threads here that I follow, and if there were 25 hours in a day, I would read all of them. I wanted to say some things for some of you that are hanging on tightly to a person that is toxic. There are so many similarities in our sitches, but I think (and I have said this before) there are just as many differences. T's threads inspired me to post today because I can see how different our Hs are even tho there are some logistical similarities.
There are different degrees of betrayal and devastation that the S puts on the M after BD. We know we can't control them and if they come back, but it is hard not to try. The thing is, that even when they do come back, that is when the hard work starts of trying to piece. My H's betrayal was pretty big and so it has been hard. However, he has said and shown through consistent actions over time that he is committed to the M, remorseful, and willing to do whatever it takes to make this work. I think the most important element of that is that he is looking at his life long patterns (lack of boundaries and needing others to feel good about himself) and taking the actions needed to change them. He has offered full transparency, gone to IC and MC, attended Retrouvaille, and been very patient with my process and my inability to stick to it. I have had plenty of doubts and wanting to end it in the last few years.
So even given all of that, it is still hard! I can't imagine trying to work through this if there were other assaults on the M during our separation. That would be so much harder to work through. For example, when we were apart: he never filed for D, he was honest about the R with OW (as much as a cheater can be), he took responsibility for it being his fault, he left the house and gave me space, he stuck to a schedule that was best for the kids, he still paid half the bills, and he was there if the kids or I needed anything. He still appeared remorseful (and somewhat pitiful) for what he was doing and he wanted things to be as best as they could. He was active in the therapy we set up for the kids and he spent a lot of quality time with kids during his evenings and weekends. He did not bring the kids around OW and her kids, go on vacay with them, or move in with her (even though she tried all of this). The kids were friends and so it would have been hurtful and confusing to all of them. There wasn't other As. [[[side note, there was a woman at work who had been pursuing him for years (yes, we argued about his boundaries with her then and yes, he now he sees it) and the irony is that OW then was the one "friend" who told me that I was jealous and should not care about work woman. Then she goes after my H. Well during our separation, during H and OWs A, work woman sniffed out his weakness and came on STRONG--texting pics and even tried to kiss him at work--and wouldn't you know that OW was crazy jealous and he couldn't even talk to her about it! What the what?!? Side to side note: OW was not the confident flirt she pretended to be, and she used to cry, keep him up at night, make him hold her, and beg him not to leave her. I say all of this because As are not as fun and exciting as we LBS may think. She needy and insecure and he felt stuck.]]]
At the time all of the above meant nothing to me--I was devastated and furious that he could have an A at all and leave our M. Now during piecing, these things matter. It is easier for me to say that my H's betrayal was a mistake and there were certain things in his character that were and always have been fundamentally good. He was still a responsible parent and put our financial stability first. And even though he was with OW, I do believe now that he was still remorseful while hurting me and the kids. Sadly tho, he made these choices and still lives with the regret and aftermath.
I just wanted to put that out there. My H is not perfect and he made a terrible mistake. He is now working hard to fix the damage. I have to give him credit for that. I also can see how much more damage he could have caused and even in his "fog" he did make some better choices than he could have. Most importantly, he is a recovering Nice Guy and understands his lack of boundaries are his decisions and choices and his alone.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
I think your courage and honesty is a really helpful thing to share, Bluwave. For me, even though R looks inconceivable and I am weeks away from the D being finalised, it has helped me reflect on what I want now as opposed to a year ago. Like you, I crave normalcy because my life just turned to shocking lunacy two years ago and I resent it.
I had to think hard about this a couple of weeks ago when my H suddenly broke silence and wanted to 'chat'. Even a few months ago, I would have jumped on this as an opportunity but I felt very uneasy so, in a huge 180 for me, I took a few days to think about it. Then I said no thank you. I love my H and D is not what I wanted, but I'm tired of the lunacy. Through the D process, I found out some things that were pretty shocking and I'm tired of trickle shocks. I think I'm too tired to even think about the effort required to do what you're doing. My logical brain said that my H wanted to 'chat' and was admitting he has made a 'horrible mess' and said he wanted to 'salvage something'...but he was still as far as I know seeing OW, still acting like a mean jerk with the legal stuff, still lying and not actually proposing anything other than chatting on the phone. My heart said I can't chat to someone who is lying to me and doing nothing in actions, as opposed to words, to earn my trust or show me respect or responsibility for his own choices. I deserve better.
And I know my M is dead, and I valued the innocence and trust and mutual admiration that was core to it. Those things are lost and can never return because my H valued them - and me - so little that he took a flamethrower to them. Even (big stretch) if he were to act like he wanted to repair or rebuild something new, those lovely things are lost and I don't want a M based on fear or suspicion or lies. For me, I would rather be alone or start to build those things with a new man who I don't know has been capable of treating me as worthless and invisible. I want to laugh and love and offer things to someone I care about without feeling afraid or judged.
It's a big step for me to stop wanting, even hoping, for my H to come back but I think I'm just too tired and battered by WTF to even hope for the chance to try to do what you are doing. I thought I would, and I admire your strength, but right now I just want the lunacy and pain out of my life. Your honesty helps the rest of us think well and wisely. Thank you.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
PS My H is probably a recovering Nice Guy too (family stuff) and I still believe that behind all of his horrible choices, he is a good person and worth loving. He was a good H and a good man and a good friend for almost 20 years before this.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Thanks for posting. I am glad that my posts are helpful. 2 years is a long time! My H was gone a total of 10 months, with a failed attempt to come back for about 6 weeks in the middle of that. If that went on for 2 years and there was OW2 in there, I am not sure that I would be where I am now! For me, part of being able to forgive him includes that there was only 1 OW and it is not a pattern. The pattern is the NG behavior, not being clear on his positions/opinions in the M, growing to resent me for this, his lack of boundaries (especially with women), and his need for validation/happiness from others. Those patterns are things that he recognizes now, accepts as problems, and is actively working on changing. Ultimately I think for the M to work, that needs to happen.
Often when we come here, we focus on getting our S to come back, however that is just the first, and required, step. Once they return to the M, both people have to look at their part, make changes in themselves, and then create a new M together. It is a tremendous amount of work because simultaneously we have to reconcile a lot of hard feelings towards one another.
I will check out your thread. I am going out of town for several days and running out the door now.
Happy weekend everyone! Go out there and GAL, 180, detach, and all the good stuff :-)
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
It's so funny but there are a lot of similarities but also HUGE differences in our situations. But for all of that I feel I am paralleling you. I will be posting on my other thread but a lot of what you write resonates with me. Your wisdom is very helpful and I often reflect within after reading bout your journey. Thank you so much for paying it forward.
M 10yrs T 13yrs BD #1Oct 2015-PA between WAH and COW BD #2 April 2016-WH resumed PA, she broke it off Jan 2 2017 WH says he wants divorce April '17-Letting go 2018 D busted DD8, DS6, DS3
