ILYBNILWY part 3

[Ginger1]

You say your "GF" wants to fix your marriage if you can for "religious" beliefs. I would imagine her strong religious beliefs should stop her dating a married man.......

I dated before I was ready, but I got serious with no one. When did I know I was truly ready? When my ex could no longer provoke a reaction out of me except fi it wasn't something about our child I didn't agree with. When I no longer felt the need to spew or get into it. when I dropped speaking of our M, what there was, or what was no longer or could be or should have been. When we stopped discussing us or our marriage that was over.

What you are doing now REEKS of an affair. Now, I am not saying that as in your having one. Our WAS find someone else who lights their fire and finds everything wrong with us. All of a sudden, we are the people they can see no positives to be being with. Their OP has everything in common with them, their are no issues, they are perfect together, and well, the LBS is not someone they could be with ever.

Just like you wrote.

Hey, your exW may not the one. Or she might be. But I encourage you to get a clearer picture without someone else fogging it up.

[Georgiabelle]

Don-great post!

East TN (lovely area by the way!,

I'm sorry you find yourself here. I have been quietly reading this thread and please know, I have been called many things, but never have I been called judgmental. I'm pretty open minded, however, I did notice your comment about GF not wanting to interfere with your marriage of something of the sort because of religious reasons. Um....there is some irony in that because you are MARRIED. Sorry, hope I don't sound like a stick in the mud. That is not a knock against her-I'm sure she is a lovely person. I'm just pointing out something rather obvious.

I have only read this thread but this seems to be moving at speed of light!!!! Can I ask you something? What is the rush????? Am I reading that BD was in late October. It's early June so if I am calculating correctly you think you are in love with someone else while married to your W a mere 7 or 8 months after the initial BD? I know we are all different, however, THIS I cannot buy as legit.

As Don said, you seem like a genuine guy with no malice intended towards anyone. I agree with everyone that I don't get the spewing with your W. That blows my mind too. You are allegedly in love....what are you fighting with your W about?? Maybe I missed something in the first 2 threads?

I don't know. I have never had any desire to date a married or separated man. Again, I'm not religious (quite the opposite) so *I* would question what kind of man I was dating if we was still married. He might be sweet, funny, kind, and fabulous to be around, BUT I would have a VERY difficult time just pushing this aside. Again, this is not directed towards your GF-this is more about your situation.

So again, what is the big hurry? And as always, I truly am sorry you find yourself here. It's a tough place to be with some awesome folks.

[Ginger1]

Apologize, I was distracted and there are many errors. It should read "the only time a reaction was provoked from me was when it was something that involved our child that I didn't agree with"

and please excuse my incorrect usage of "their, there, and they're" so unlike me.

[Georgiabelle]

Oh, and sorry Ginger. I missed your post. Spot on with what I was thinking!

[DonH]

Well look at that, as I suggested at the start, I might help some other reader here. Hopefully I did and there will be more. I still have confidence in at least a few light bulbs starting to glow for East as well.

Your comment on the age gap was also something I noticed but did not include in my comments. But, yes, at least in some cases this fits the rest of the picture - just not all cases. In East's case, he was dating a 25 year old at 36. That's a large gap - especially at those ages. The maturity aspect again comes into play - for both parties. The average 25 yr/o is just in such a different place than the average 36. I'd be curious in knowing how old the new GF is?

[Tobias]

and for me that was worse: she was 20 I was 30. But I never felt our age gap was a real issue. It seems that NOW she is 30 she is reconsidering things. Just trying to figure out if she is depressed because of our marriage or because of something else. I know when I was 30 I wasn't possessing the skills I needed to avoid many of our problems. I am working on it, but my impulsive nature and desire to just have her in my arms are interfering

[OwnIt]

DonH you are obviously a h*lluva guy, your posts are always so human and insightful. Ginger and Georgiabelle, I'm big fans of yours from comments I've read on other threads.

Something I meant to say to East and didn't, was that in addition to the other comments that have been made, I think if you could have something meaningful with this woman in the future, you are risking that now by becoming involved too quickly and too deeply. If that relationship is "meant to be" it should be something that can be put aside while you do right by your vows and your D.

I dipped into the onling dating pool in January. I quickly learned that I had no place being involved with anyone (I kicked H out in October). As Ginger said, until you can discuss the marriage without emotion (in my case tears, which I could not) then you are not ready to be with anyone.

As I recall your W was starting to come around a bit. Perhaps just a touch and go at realizing that she could lose you, but what happens if things don't work out with GF, and you see how D has been harmed by this, and you regret not working harder to save the marriage. Personally, I want to have no reget. Although I feel done, I am carrying on and abiding by DB and giving my H his space and, without hope (a nod to you Andrew) I am leaving the door ever so slightly ajar.

My experience in January and yours with this GF establishes that there are people out there. You do not have to be alone forever. You can have feelings for someone again. But, it should be with a clean conscience, a clear head, and an open heart. I agree with the others that the problems maintaining your emotions with W spell big time disaster for where you are heading.

Please give this some thought.

[EastTN]

DonH,

Thanks for taking the time to read all of the crap I've posted, and to put together your response. I realize that I'm a frustrating SOB to give advice to. I really DO listen to it, even if I don't always (okay, rarely) follow it. Sometimes it takes me years to figure out something was the right thing at the time. Sometimes I figure it out milliseconds after I've done the wrong thing. Sometimes I even get things right.

Preface: I am thinking out loud here, not justifying.

I'll readily admit that I think I'm immature. Naive may be a better word. Impulsive? Sure seems so. The messed up thing is that isn't who I am. Under normal circumstances, the best word to describe me is DELIBERATE. I think about things slowly. I plan things. I act after I am sure something is the correct course of action. Often, I take too long to do that (analysis paralysis leads to waiting too long). Under this kind of stress, I go to pieces. I'm an introvert, and I will literally tell strangers what's going on in my life right now. This is my blind spot. The worst place for me to be. The thing I have no plans for. No tools for. No defenses against. Last time I went through a divorce, suicide was a serious option for me (to be fair, I Was being systemically mentally and emotionally abused by 1st W at the time). I got to see the inside of a county jail for what I almost did to myself. I'd run away from this, if I had the option. Move to Alaska and never talk to anyone from my old life. Thankfully, that's not an option for me, and I'm forced to deal with reality, rather than the world I wish I had.

You called me a control freak. I'm not. I don't care about control. Don't want it. Generally reject it. I'll only try to control a situation if it needs to be and no one else is going to. I'd always rather follow than lead. It's probably one of the biggest things wrong with me, to be honest. I HATE responsibility, and that's what control is. When I'm faced with it, I live up to it, but I don't ever want to HAVE to. And I keep finding myself with it, and I live up to it, regardless of it's what I want (or at least regardless of if it's what wanted when I first had the responsibility). Times like this? Yeah, I desperately want to control ME. It seems like I Can't even do that half the time.

You have me on the "I know best." I'm used to being right. When I'm wrong, I am usually REALLY wrong to make up for that.

I won't touch the "in love" part. I can't. When I introspect, I keep coming to the same conclusions, that this is real. However, I'm told insane people never believe they are insane. So my conclusions are suspect. How the heck can I be absolute if I can't trust my perceptions? But who the heck can I listen to here? I've got a therapist that listens to what I'm saying and tells me that I appear to be on a positive path. Her advice (which I also have trouble following, of course) has been sound. It differs from most I'm getting here, but she also has more complete information. More than just written words. Body language, voice cues, etc. How can I not trust that?

"No upside." Here's where I go to absolutes. I really don't see any. Not even D having both of her parents. I've LIVED that. I have BEEN my daughter, and she will NEVER be me. My parents got back together after divorce and it was a disaster. Will it be positive if D goes through this AGAIN at age 8? AGAIN at age 10? Protecting her, giving her a good life, sacrificing anything I need to is my priority zero. If I believed for a minute this would be better for her, I'd do anything to make it happen. Give up GF. Swallow any amount of pride. Do any amount of work. Forgive anything I needed to. Learn to trust again. Be someone I hated. In a heartbeat.

Yes, I've become the WAS. But W has literally changed nothing. Her ideal endgame here seems to be that she somehow keeps both me and the OM. I'm pretty sure that's been her goal since day one. Vows are broken, tattered, and torn. Lies pile up by the dozen. When when I know the truth, have proof, I get lied to. Even when lying DOESN'T MATTER. Can't actually improve the situation for her. I got her to go through six different iterations of a story in roughly thirty minutes. It got worse each time. I'm about 95% that iteration six is STILL not the whole thing. Whatever else I may be, doing the "right thing" is incredibly important to me. Staying in a marriage I would be miserable in is something I would (I HAVE!) done, for the sake of the vows I made. My WW/WAW/WTF hasn't changed, though. Isn't going to. Has no desire to. I remember when this started, and I asked if she had done anything to try to change how she was feeling, her response was "I don't think I should have to work to be happy." To me, that says everything.

Even when W is crying that she doesn't want to not be my wife anymore, that's not enough to generate ANY kind of positive action. That's why I see no upside. She's SELFISH. She hasn't been a good wife. She's a terrible mother. She hasn't remotely done "her part" in our marriage. I've got my problems, and acknowledge them, and am working on them, but she's done NOTHING more than sit on her ass for two years. I allowed that (I've made noises about her going back to work, etc, but never pressed the issue) and I have to own that, but god, I'm not responsible for all of it! I'm not responsible for her affairs, or her lies, or her complete lack of respect for me or our marriage, or our family, for her lack of self esteem, or for her bad choices. I've also come around to Jeep's point of view, that there's no point sticking around for a cheater.

I got left with EVERY responsibility in our shared lives! ALL OF THEM! I'm dad, AND I'm mom! I'm the breadwinner AND the nurturer! Pay the bills, take care of the pets, take and pickup from school, doctors appointments, take off work for D when she can't go to school. She screams that she isn't going to get enough time with D, but WON'T SHOW UP FOR ANYTHING! I GOT LEFT WITH EVERYTHING! NO HELP! NONE! I can't rely on ANYONE! I HAVE NO FAMILY within 500 miles of here! THIS [censored] IS ALL ON ME! I WANT TO BREAK SOMETIMES, AND I CAN'T! CAN'T! And she sits there on her damned xbox with her fantasy boyfriend as I STILL support her! HOW CAN I POSSIBLY BELIEVE THERE IS ANY UPSIDE HERE? EVER AGAIN? The fact that I don't hate the ground she walks on is a freaking MIRACLE.

Your statement that I've got myself in a trench hits home. I've felt almost exactly that. I agree that I couldn't have messed things up more if I tried. I put myself on a path that I feel like I have to walk (that I'm actually enjoying being on that path isn't material to the fact that I feel constrained to walk it). When I analyze this, I come to the conclusion that it IS the "Right" path, rather than JUST the easy one (my experience says "right" and "easy" are usually NOT friends. Any situation where they seem to be merits extra caution).

My M is gone. It's not coming back. Maybe what I'm doing with GF is too soon. Maybe it won't last. Maybe I'm making another mistake. But dammit, why the hell can't I make mistakes? Everyone else in my life has, for my whole damn life. I've ALWAYS had to be the responsible one. ALWAYS! And I HATE RESPONSIBILITY. I AM being responsible for D. I AM showing her that I've done right by her mother. I will ALWAYS do right by her mother, no matter what it costs me. But trying to "fix" us is NOT doing right! I don't have to THINK I can love her again. I still love that broken, damaged creature she is. That doesn't change the "NO WAY IS THIS A GOOD THING!" mentality I have when it comes to my M!

Past that, why can't I have something nice for once? Why can't I get blindsided and fall in love like a bad movie? I can't reason myself out of this one: the compatibility and chemistry here is through the roof. Someone who DOESN'T NEED ME for once in my life. Someone who DOESN'T CARE what I can give them, or do for them. Someone who encourages me to keep being my own person. That I can talk philosophy with, or books, or art, or about childish things. Make out in a movie theater like teenagers for the first time in my life. Feel PASSION that has NEVER ONCE been part of my life in my four decades. See that passion looking RIGHT BACK AT ME when I look into another set of eyes. Why is this so bad? Why walk away from something good, JUST for someone who doesn't DESERVE the chance, or for a marriage that is already dead??

WHY?

I feel like I AM trying to grow up. Being "single dad" has lit a fire under me in that regard. I don't GET to slack. I don't GET to mess up. I'm not ALLOWED to fail, or fall down in that regard. The "adult" thing to do is always in the front of my mind. And I almost always do it, these days, no matter how much I may not want to.

I am listening to you. I really am. I agree you're right on some of it. I'll even admit to the possibility it's all of it. I don't sit here and try to justify my actions, though. I always look at what I've done, and what I'm doing, and make sure that when all is said and done I'll be able to look in the mirror. I feel guilty sometimes about what I'm doing. I'm not sure if it's because I think I'm doing wrong, or if it's because I feel like this is something too good for me. But guilty or not I can still look in the mirror, and I can still look at my child and feel like i'm a good man. I Don't knwo that you can ask for more than that in life.

[Tobias]

I'll readily admit that I think I'm immature. Naive may be a better word. Impulsive? Sure seems so. The messed up thing is that isn't who I am. Under normal circumstances, the best word to describe me is DELIBERATE. I think about things slowly. I plan things. I act after I am sure something is the correct course of action. Often, I take too long to do that (analysis paralysis leads to waiting too long). Under this kind of stress, I go to pieces. I'm an introvert, and I will literally tell strangers what's going on in my life right now. This is my blind spot. The worst place for me to be. The thing I have no plans for. No tools for. No defenses against.

It's as if I hear myself. One of the challenges has been that I say no to trips and fun things because I need to plan and figure out the budget. So one of my 180s has been to try to be more spontaneous but in doing so I sometimes push a little too fast.

And yes me too, I am used to being right and in reality I am right maybe 50/50. But people look to me for advice. That was my arrogance earlier on when W asked for MC and I said nah we just need to talk better. Last week she said she really wished I would have shown this side earlier. But she seems a bit intrigued still. Just very scared that I will fall back into my old self (two days ago I kind of did for a little bit) and I think while she doesn't see a real future with OM, he does make her laugh, and he knows how to be dominant in the bedroom, something I am more clumsy with. He doesn't expect much. But the spell he has over her needs to be broken. And her depression needs to be addressed. I think the depression may be a small step in the right direction that she knows what she did was wrong but she isn't ready to move on because she doesn't feel the A was the reason our M was in trouble. So I cannot make it about that. And in reality while the A was hurtful. My actions were hurtful too. We need a new marriage so in reality she didn't cheat.

But long story short: yes, I get what you are saying about suddenly being impulsive. I had that side in me but not for the right things. So I need to be impulsive romantically when (IF?) our M gets back on track but not impulsive in expecting big changes.

I hope that helps. (I am actually typing it out for myself too...)

[Bdog37]

East,

I just think what everyone is saying is to take it slow with this new GF. Just the other day you were telling everyone how hard it is for you to detach from your W and how it would be so much easier if you still didn't care.

I get were you are coming from, I really do. The woman my W turned into made me want to scream out just like you did. Why don't I deserve happiness?!?! Why do I have to be the sole responsible one for our kids while she is off running around with the OM!?! Why can't I have something nice for once?!?! All the while doing this I realized something... that I was still hurt. I just think if you have to question these things then maybe you are still too? I could be wrong, you are the one that filed, but if I am then why are you finding it so hard to detach from her? And if you are then maybe this new GF is a "band aid" for that pain?

You still admit caring for your W at times so I just think that is why people are trying to offer their advice in regards to the GF. You don't want to hurt her either in the process of healing yourself.