Good job on stopping the responses. She's laid it out...so what are you going to do next?
There are moments in this life when you are so confident in the rightness of your actions, that not even for a second do you consider the option that you might be wrong.
...just one more thing to remember. I always found that when my XW was "softening/validating/etc," that she was truly feeling guilty about the hell she was putting me through. It became plainly obvious in the hours/days after we'd talk, she would then get EXTREMELY mad at me for having "made her" feel guilty...even though I wasn't doing anything of the sort.
R talks for you right now are NOT going to help...she'll just blame you for "making" her feel bad about her decisions, and that's utterly intolerable for her. It's a no win situation.
ME-37 W-34 T-8 M-4 ILYBNILWY BD: 8-31-2015 EA suspected - 11/1/15 PA confirmed - 1/22/16 W files for D - 2/4/16 D - 8/9/16
Good job on stopping the responses. She's laid it out...so what are you going to do next?
Just keep focusing on myself. She knows how to reach me if she wants to have a rational talk.
Originally Posted By: Husky
...just one more thing to remember. I always found that when my XW was "softening/validating/etc," that she was truly feeling guilty about the hell she was putting me through. It became plainly obvious in the hours/days after we'd talk, she would then get EXTREMELY mad at me for having "made her" feel guilty...even though I wasn't doing anything of the sort.
The whole psychology of it is crazy, huh? It's like a chess match with your whole future at stake. It really did seem like she was coming out of the fog some last night and did give me some hope. I don't know if it made her guilty so she's already stepped back some or she talked to her work friend who surely put a negative spin on everything I had said. Probably some of both.
4)Her guilt is a time bomb, be careful. I think most women, especially my wife, can NOT handle the guilt of breaking up their family, so they avoid anything that may remind them. Sometimes they’ll start crying if you tell her how much you love her, or how miserable you’ve been since she left. But BE CAREFUL, these tears most often come from guilt, not true love. A good example: my wife and I were talking about all the bills that I needed to remove her name from (gas, credit card, etc.). Talking about the mortgage loan, she calmly stated that she wanted her name removed from that too, but that meant I’d have to re-finance, which we both knew I couldn’t qualify alone. So, that left only option…..sell the house. She began crying, and I thought it was because she knew she would never be able to come home. WRONG! She felt guilty b/c I bought the damn house for her, and now I was screwed. Her crying spells during our divorce talks, created false hope that she might not divorce me.
ME-37 W-34 T-8 M-4 ILYBNILWY BD: 8-31-2015 EA suspected - 11/1/15 PA confirmed - 1/22/16 W files for D - 2/4/16 D - 8/9/16
I know, I know.. I'm trying to very delicately balance how much of a "follower" she is by nature since not pursuing at least a tiny bit will most likely cause her to never speak to me.
This is your fear talking.
Originally Posted By: brizz
After she was busted and kicked out of the house on New Years day, the next time she was over she angrily mentioned how I hadn't even reached out to her. As if I should have been reaching out then and not her.
Do you see this 'logic'? She wants to be pursued because you arent pursuing her. But, trust me, if you had, shed have told you to go fly a kite. Try to remember that anger isnt necessarily BAD.
Originally Posted By: brizz
Case in point, that text exchange was the most productive talk we've had in 3 months. I honestly didn't expect at this point to get that level of calmness and honesty from her.
Im still not positive what you mean by 'productive'. I dont see how you are any closer to reconciling. She said she feels bad. Thats guilt. I didnt see anything about being sorry. In fact you talked about how horribly she treated you and her words were "Everyone makes mistakes".
Thats why I think you need to stop having these kinds of talks. You see them as productive, but I dont see 'progress. Just guilt.
She asked to come by the house last night to talk. She was calm but it was still more of the same. She said our M got derailed after the first year and she just repressed it because she wanted it to work and was scared to leave. That she just catered to me to keep me happy. Said she had actually hoped I had an affair so that it would make the choice easy for her.
Said I had shut her out emotionally. Minimized all my contributions around the house. Said I involved her in my different projects when she didn't want to be involved. Heading into Christmas season I built several decorations for the yard. I asked her opinion on a lot of things with them. I always did that with stuff. That's probably mainly what she was referring to. I also feel like if I didn't involve her in things I'd just get bashed for that. No winning there.
Said a whole bunch of other really petty things. Like how I didn't make coffee. Or that I asked her to make toast while I cooked everything else for breakfast.
I apologized for my failures in the marriage. She said she appreciated that. Didn't offer up an apology of her own at all. When I talked about how I didn't feel appreciated, she basically said I never did anything to appreciate. The best I got was that she felt bad for hurting me.
I asked about the weekend prior to BD where things went so well. She said at my family's Christmas party she was thinking how it would be the last time she saw those people and they would all hate her. She started crying when saying this. She was teary eyed through most of the talk but this part really upset her.
OM didn't really come up. She said when she went on her work trip her only plan was to "hang out with a friend. Just hang out". She never said his name but talked about OM's W a bit, calling her by name. All very casual talk about her, was strange. She asked me how I knew so much about the A, all the things I said when I kicked her out on New Years day. She said I recorded her. I said I didn't have to, I heard it with my own ears when you were talking to yourself late at night. She just kind of said "Oh, I didn't realize I did it that much".
R was discussed. She said she wasn't sure it would be good for her. That she wasn't motivated and it wouldn't be fair to try. Said she still thinks what it will be like to be divorced and if it's what she wants. She said it would take so much work just to get us back where we were. She said I would never trust her. I said it'd have to be rebuilt. She said I never trusted her before and cited how I'd ask her where she was going, who she was with, and what she was texting. All 3 were untrue in different ways. I would ask her what store she'd be going to just so I knew, nothing to do with trust. All the happy hours she started going to, I never once asked who she was with. About the texting, she said she'd laugh and I'd ask what was being said. I said the obvious, everyone does that and she did the same with me plenty.
When she was about to leave I told her how OM told his W that she had said I was abusive and an alcoholic. I really thought OM was the liar at that point. She looked taken aback for a moment then said "That was taken out of context." I started getting angry. I asked what the context was then. She said it wasn't said in those words. I asked what words were used because no words like that would even be remotely close to the truth. She didn't say anything. I told her I'd appreciate it if she wasn't spreading lies about me.
Now agitated a bit, I asked her if she wanted to know what else OM's W told me. She said sure. I told her how they were having sex throughout their affair, how she had surgery in January while he was in my city for 1 day with my W, and when he went home he had insisted on having sex with his W even though it was against her doctor's orders. How they'd have sex daily and he still told his W she had a low sex drive. How when she left from her work trip, the very next day he asked if he could come back home since he'd moved to a hotel just for that week. How they were in counseling throughout and he'd said my W was too skinny and homely looking when his W asked about her. How despite telling my W he was leaving his W he never said it to her. How they were discussing renewing their vows and it was his idea. How the last time he was in my city with her 2 weeks ago right after his W found hard evidence of the affair that he started texting his W that he loved her and was sorry for breaking her heart and was going to break it off with my W and come back home early. While telling her these things I could tell it was really upsetting her but she was struggling to hold it together. We walked outside for her to leave and I asked if she was upset. She said, "yeah, it's very upsetting." I said, "you mean what I just told you?" She said yes. I flatly told her she needed to open her eyes, that he was just using her and she meant nothing to him. I think she was almost in shock from it all and her mind was spinning.
This morning OM's W texted me that my W was calling him at 6:30am but he didn't answer. My W doesn't even know what 6:30am looks like. Right away I guessed she probably had a sleepless night and was up calling him that early despite leaving my/our house pretty late. I told her the things I told my W last night and how that was probably why she was calling him.
Later in the afternoon OM's W texted me again that my W had called him 2 more times, this time from her work landline so he'd answer. He answered and asked if it was about work and she said no and he hung up. She called again and asked him if it "was true he was moving back home". He said yes and he doesn't have to discuss it with her and hung up while she was still talking.
So this is where things started to get really crazy. My W texted OM's W. She'd never replied to any of the texts or emails she got from her and certainly never answered the phone when OM's W was calling her. Nor did I ever expect her to and be forced to face what she's done. She said "I'm ready to talk if you want to discuss the facts calmly." Seemed pretty clear my W knew now how she was used and wanted to hurt him back enough that she didn't mind having to talk to his W to do it.
So they talked. My W told her they did in fact have sex while she was on her work trip. They didn't always use protection. A few other gritty details as well. That they FaceTimed all the time. She told her that he hadn't broken it off with her 2 weeks ago at all. That he told her he wouldn't be able to call her for a bit and he was going to be filing for divorce when he went back home. He didn't do that, he went to counseling with his W and confessed as he had promised her. He's just trying to play both sides and is a total piece of garbage. My W told her she felt bad for what she did and apologized. OM's W said she sounded as if she'd realized she had gotten played.
I don't know where this leaves me. It hurts that she came over to talk and even discussed R when apparently in her mind their A was still going on. I'm really just getting tired of all the lies and the endless drama. Just when I think it can't get any more crazy something else happens. I'm an unwilling participant in all this craziness that has become my life. I don't know if my W will now pull a 180 and want to talk about R and apologize. I really don't know if I even want it at this point.
When they're in such a deep fog and completely rewrite history and say they never felt the way they seemed to feel, how would you ever believe them if they snap out of it and say they didn't mean those things?
How do you trust that they're being genuine then and not just reverting back to "putting up" with things because their affair ended?
This hasn't happened for me, but I'm just thinking how I'd always be in doubt on if she was happy or just pretending and I'd just be getting set up for another BD.
I doubt its guilt, more likely shame. Projected onto you.
Fog?
Entitlement and waywardness more like it. An A is a choice, there are others. This is one scummy choice. Knickers don't just fall off. It takes planning to have an A.
This is WW, OM is just a tool who happened to be there.
You caught her, there were boundaries and consequences. She doesn't like it and is projecting that shame on you. It's shame for being caught, not for the act itself. Otherwise there would be atonement
I see no indication of true remorse. Just blame.
I read you are open to forgive her. There are no signs she is remorseful at all or wants change, wants all in. Just thwarted and angry.
You know your sitch though.
If you want R then what is your boundary on it?
V
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. V 64, WAW
Vanilla, my boundaries for R would be that she's able to talk calmly without yelling or we won't continue that talk. That she respects how I feel and doesn't try to discredit it or we won't continue that talk. I had to enforce that last Thursday when we were talking and I spoke of what I had wanted in the R and didn't feel I got (hand holding, notes, signs of affection, etc.) and she said "I really don't believe you wanted those things". So I said "Those are my feelings and I'm the only one who can speak on what they are. If you can't respect that then we won't continue talking about this" and she agreed she shouldn't try to tell me how I felt.
So now for my update: Yesterday WW texted me that she was in the area and wanted to come by and see the dog. I really didn't know what to expect since she'd just been over Thursday and I knew how everything with her A had blown up and she'd confessed to OM's W, etc. So she came over. Played with the dog for a few minutes before politely asking me how I was doing. We started talking. She got upset for a bit in talking about how she felt I had treated her in the M. I listened and validated but asked her to calm down if we were to continue talking.
A lot of what she said rung true, some didn't. She again talked about wanting to go into town to restaurants on special occasions, which she'd never discussed. She went more in depth of how she thought about it for her birthday, getting dressed up and going but decided I wouldn't do it, so she settled for a nicer restaurant nearby where we didn't need to get dressed up but then thought she wouldn't even get me to agree to that, so she settled for a place we'd normally go. And she's right, I may have been disagreeable to it. But it's also because it wouldn't have been something we normally did and I felt she'd really want to do. So I emphasized if that was something she wanted and she communicated that it was important, I wouldn't have had an issue with doing it for birthdays or anniversaries.
She talked about how I'd tease sometimes. That it hurt her but I still did it because I didn't think it hurt so it didn't matter. And she's right. To me it was a joke and she didn't need to be hurt by it. I should have accepted that if she felt it hurt, then it hurt, end of story. She again talked about traveling and how when we went places before she didn't feel like I wanted to go and she had to plan everything and we didn't really do anything. I validated but disagreed with some points on it.
She again belittled my contributions around the house as if she did everything. I made sure to speak up because that simply wasn't true. This is really something I feel she needs to see more clearly on. For the majority of the M I worked at a job where I was off every Friday. I spent a good portion of those days cleaning the house. My current job I'm off every other Friday and that was still true. She certainly did a lot but to act as if I did nothing is insulting.
She actually talked outright about the affair somewhat for the first time. Used the word affair, even. She said it was a mistake from start to finish. That she was selfish and didn't think. She said repeatedly at different points how it was a big mistake. I had asked at one point if she saw now how she was used, lied to and manipulated and she said yes. Said she didn't know how she was capable of doing those things. Really genuinely said she was sorry for hurting me.
She also said I needed to think about how easy it was for her to do it to me. She said how when I texted her on 12/30 about how I knew she took condoms when she left, that she could have come back home and tried to fix things but she didn't. She said when she got that message she was mad and also angry at herself for being so careless. She said while she was doing it she really thought we were over and it didn't matter.
She said she was meeting with a lawyer after she was kicked out and wasn't sure she wanted a D. But then the lawyer pulled up online where I had just filed and she said that made it easier for her. We talked about where we stood right now. She said she's pretty broken and she knew I was too and she had a lot of issues she need to work on on her own. She did say she didn't want us to schedule mediation, which I think would be the next step. Said she wasn't sure if she wanted to work on a R with me and didn't know how I would even be open to it.
She asked me about why I filed and didn't want to talk first. I explained I was immensely hurt and she'd made it clear before that she didn't want to talk to me and was treating me worse than garbage at that point so it was an emotional decision when I was really hurt and a mess. She understood.
At one point earlier in the conversation when I was apologizing she was looking very upset so I offered a hug and she didn't want a part of it but finally somewhat reluctantly hugged me. The general tone of the visit was kind of strange. After she calmed down from being upset she went over to the kitchen table where I had begun a jigsaw puzzle and started working on it. I sat down and we started doing it together. She asked if there was anything to eat and I jokingly asked "Oh, I'm supposed to feed you?" and she kind of laughed. She got some chips and was eating them for a while so I asked if she wanted something else. I warmed her up some leftovers and she ate and thanked me.
It was clear she just wanted to be there. She did say she'd like to come over more and see the dog. I asked why she hadn't done that before and she said she had other things going on (I guess the affair itself) and she thought I was angry at her and couldn't be around me. She was actually at the house for over 5 hours yesterday all on her own decision. It was like she just wanted to be around me, I don't know.
When I walked out with her when she left she hugged me. I don't know what is going on. I don't know what to make of this stuff. I think she's confused. I mean, she says she had all these problems with me and that I was a terrible husband but a good person. Yet she is wanting to be around me. I don't know where it's coming from. I don't want her doing something out of guilt or since she jumped into the affair and now it's over she needs to go back to clinging to something, me. She was upset at one point, angry, but then later she was very soft and caring, the W I knew before. I guess I'm just as confused as she is.
