Who am I and what do I want?

[doodler]

dream,

I'm with you. It sounds a lot like someone who's drunk taking another drink so that they'll feel better about being drunk. There's just something about it that says this ain't quite right.

[JGuy]

Hey folks, I suppose you're entitled to think whatever you want about my sitch and I should expect nothing less by posting here. I must say it's pretty rough to hear people's unfiltered judgements about me, but I guess that's part of what I need to get comfortable with. Not everyone will always agree with my choices. Especially when their belief systems differ from mine.

I too am concerned about how quickly it is appropriate to get into another R. This OW deserves to be much more than just a rebound for me. Admittedly, I am not the most disciplined person. I can't imagine myself having the ability to say no to it at this time solely on the basis of it being "too soon". I am trying to find a middle ground by proceeding slowly. And yeah, slowly is a relative term depending on the kind of person you are. I'm an impatient, impulsive, risk-taking Aries. Yeah, I know some of you will think I'm nuts for believing in astrology and dreams and letting that stuff influence my decision making. I'm fine with you having a different belief system as long as you respect mine.

Speaking of dreams, I had a dream two nights ago that I was driving behind another car, not thinking about my speed. I was pulled over by a cop for speeding. I recall feeling like it was unfair, why did the cop pull me over when the car in front of me was setting the pace and I just wasn't noticing? There's some relevant symbolism here that I don't want to ignore.

To be clear about timing, I removed my ring to signify outwardly that it was over for me on March 27th. This was the no turning back point for me. Inwardly, I had begun the process of grieving the loss of the M back around January 1st, but chose not to burn any bridges just in case there was some miraculous way that the M might be saved. January, February and March I spent intensely focusing on myself, trying to answer that question about what I contributed to the failure of the M. I did get to some solid answers to that, which I shared in previous posts.

I get what folks are saying about how I should be focusing on what needs to change about me to make my next R successful. In addition to all the other soul searching that I've been doing, I have recently joined a weekly men's circle to continue digging deeper. And yes, I am still seeing my IC.

But there's also truth to the fact that in addition to dealing with one's own issues, it's important to find a partner who is compatible. My STBXW and I were really incompatible in a lot of ways that started to become very clear to me around mid-February. I have always lacked confidence in my ability to discern what is and isn't a showstopper. When should I set a boundary and be willing to walk away from a R for the sake of self-respect? This weakness of mine is one of the main issues that I identified during the past few months.

The OW and I are way, way more compatible in all the ways that my STBXW and I were not. We have the same interests and tastes in a lot of things. We have the same vision of what we want in a R. We are able to communicate and make agreements, set boundaries, and respect each other by being forthcoming and truthful. The OW has a very different personality than that of my STBXW. She knows herself and what she wants very clearly and she doesn't hesitate to speak up immediately when something feels off. It is a bit intimidating but also very refreshing. My STBXW calibrated me... it's clear that I really need a woman who can speak up for herself and who is fearlessly true to herself. It's humbling, hard on my ego, but I must admit, probably very good for me.

I tried for years to teach my SBTXW what I needed, but she just didn't have an appetite for the kind of R I wanted. I always thought the problem was that I wasn't being clear or convincing enough, but really, the problem lied in my unwillingness to accept that my STBXW was simply not interested to grow or change in the ways that would have been necessary. It's not that she's wrong and I'm right, though. It's just that we weren't aligned. We wanted very different things from a R.

If my STBXW was more honest from the beginning, instead of always avoiding conflict, then I think we probably would have figured out this incompatibility much sooner. I felt a lot of anger over the past 6 months that my STBXW was not more transparent and honest from the beginning. I felt like I was robbed of the information I needed to make sense of what was wrong in our R. I felt robbed of my freedom to respond and do the right thing, which would have been trying to work things out and ultimately letting her go much sooner. It felt as though these years of my life were wasted unnecessarily by her unilateral choice to leave me in the dark. I have worked through that though, and have forgiven her. I have had to elevate myself to a place where I love her enough to be willing to be that person with whom she needed to learn that lesson. I now feel honored and I don't regret it. It is also teaching me that I should trust my own intuition more and be more firm with my own boundaries.

I'm definitely out of the fog that was previously keeping me from seeing the way forward. I don't know that anyone ever gets out of their fog completely though. We are always learning, it never ends!

[dream]

Speaking of dreams, I had a dream two nights ago that I was driving behind another car, not thinking about my speed. I was pulled over by a cop for speeding. I recall feeling like it was unfair, why did the cop pull me over when the car in front of me was setting the pace and I just wasn't noticing? There's some relevant symbolism here that I don't want to ignore.

You're following your wife's footprints of having an affair (speeding). You post about it on here and you're getting called out (pulled over). Just because your wife is cheating, that doesn't make it OK for you to cheat too. Again, this is all happening in front of your son. I hope he's able to realize how wrong all of this is and doesn't make the same mistakes in his life.

If my STBXW was more honest from the beginning, instead of always avoiding conflict, then I think we probably would have figured out this incompatibility much sooner.

This sounds like you're blaming the failure of your marriage completely on your wife. What did you do or not do that contributed to your marriage ending this way? What are you doing or have you done to make sure your next relationship doesn't end the same way?

As long as you're seeing OW as your soul mate, you're in the fog. It's the same for your wife and OM.

[CWOL]

JGuy,
I agree with dream. I think you are disavowing any responsibility in your MR issues. If you were that incompatible before you got married, you would not have gotten married in the first place. That's what all WS's use to justify having affairs, mine included. Also, once the fog/novelty of OW wears off, you will probably find just as many incompatibilities as your W now. The "incompatibilities" come from not being able to fulfill each others' needs and lack of communications, which was my failing as well in my M.

[MoveFrwd]

Justifying your actions
Not everyone will always agree with my choices. Especially when their belief systems differ from mine...... Admittedly, I am not the most disciplined person. I can't imagine myself having the ability to say no to it at this time solely on the basis of it being "too soon"...... I'm an impatient, impulsive, risk-taking Aries.

Saying "I tried everything I could."
To be clear about timing, I removed my ring to signify outwardly that it was over for me on March 27th. This was the no turning back point for me. Inwardly, I had begun the process of grieving the loss of the M back around January 1st, but chose not to burn any bridges just in case there was some miraculous way that the M might be saved...... I tried for years to teach my SBTXW what I needed, but she just didn't have an appetite for the kind of R I wanted. I always thought the problem was that I wasn't being clear or convincing enough, but really, the problem lied in my unwillingness to accept that my STBXW was simply not interested to grow or change in the ways that would have been necessary.

Saying OP is a better "fit".
But there's also truth to the fact that in addition to dealing with one's own issues, it's important to find a partner who is compatible...... The OW and I are way, way more compatible in all the ways that my STBXW and I were not. We have the same interests and tastes in a lot of things. We have the same vision of what we want in a R. We are able to communicate and make agreements, set boundaries, and respect each other by being forthcoming and truthful. The OW has a very different personality than that of my STBXW. She knows herself and what she wants very clearly and she doesn't hesitate to speak up immediately when something feels off...... If my STBXW was more honest from the beginning, instead of always avoiding conflict, then I think we probably would have figured out this incompatibility much sooner.

Rewriting history
My STBXW and I were really incompatible in a lot of ways that started to become very clear to me around mid-February...... It is a bit intimidating but also very refreshing. My STBXW calibrated me... it's clear that I really need a woman who can speak up for herself and who is fearlessly true to herself. It's humbling, hard on my ego, but I must admit, probably very good for me...... I felt like I was robbed of the information I needed to make sense of what was wrong in our R. I felt robbed of my freedom to respond and do the right thing, which would have been trying to work things out and ultimately letting her go much sooner. It felt as though these years of my life were wasted unnecessarily by her unilateral choice to leave me in the dark.

I'll bet theres more than one woman on the board now who would read your words above and think that they came directly from their WH.

To me, it feels like since your W cheated first, youre "allowed" to take this step. I dont believe "fundamentally incompatible people" stay together for 10 years.

This is ONLY my opinion: It reads like you were hurt by W, and OW is helping you to feel better. She's providing all of the validation that you crave and require. This post is you justifying to everyone why you think that chasing after OW is healthy. There is very little difference to me between what you are doing now and what your W did months ago. But again, thats only my opinion.

[JGuy]

Folks, my M is over. I am not cheating on anyone. Cheating implies betrayal but I have been 100% transparent and honest with my STBXW about everything with the OW. We have her blessing and she and her OM have mine. It is beautiful when it can end this way and I am very grateful. I wish that my STBXW had been honest from the beginning too, but I accept that she had to learn this with me. It is what it is. I hope for her sake that she never has to repeat the mistake of betraying someone she loves again. By changing her ways and choosing to live with honesty from now on, she will be honoring me and the pain that I had to go through, and I will feel at peace that going through this difficult time was at least a gift to her.

I am not blaming all the MR problems on my W. She definitely had some issues but so did I. Just because I point out some of her issues doesn't mean I'm ignoring mine. But here's the thing I realized in February that was really liberating for me: Just because the M did not work out does not mean that either of us are to blame, necessarily. Sometimes, even when you are a good person and you learn everything you were meant to learn from a relationship's problems, it still doesn't work out. That doesn't have to be seen as a tragedy. Coming to a clear understanding about the mismatch is a great victory, especially when everyone can drop the blame and see it as just a simple mismatch which was nobody's fault. If anything, it is just a lack of self-awareness that led to choosing the wrong partner.

My son is doing great. He is not confused as I have kept him informed appropriately. He already knows the OW well because her daughter is in my son's grade 1 class and they have frequent play dates together. My son likes her a lot. I am already close to her daughter too. I had a talk with my son the other day before the OW came over to visit, because I didn't want him to be confused. I started the conversation by asking my son how he is doing with his girlfriend (they are ADORABLE). We talked a bit about love. Then I reminded him of what he already knew, that his mother and I were not feeling the same way that we used to about each other. I told him that I think there might be someone new who I am starting to feel love for. I asked if he could guess who it is. He immediately guessed correctly. It surprised me because the OW and I had never shown any affection to each other at all. He is an intuitive little guy, my son. Kids know and you can't hide things from them. This is exactly why I feel it's better to talk, so that what they are feeling aligns with what the grown-ups are saying. When I told him it was true, he immediately lit up with excitement and said "does that mean I get to have two mommies?". I said "well, not yet, but maybe someday.". Then he said "I really want to have a baby brother or sister. Are you and the OW going to have a baby?". I asked him if he liked the OW. He said "yes, she is very agreeable". So, I think everything is going to be fine with my son. I'm still concerned about making sure that things go smoothly for him when my STBXW finally moves out, but I'm confident that with all the love and harmony, it will be fine.

When my parents divorced, they did it very harmoniously and they put me and my sister first. It was all very smooth and I never had any difficult feelings about it at all. I was glad when my parents divorced because I knew they weren't happy together. They both found new partners that they were happy with, and who I really liked and am still very close to. I was excited by all the positive change and the new mixed families. Both of my parents were successful and happy with their new partners to this day. 28 years and counting! So what I'm saying is that I had a positive example to follow in how to divorce harmoniously. I am a living example of the fact that divorce does not need to be a terrible and traumatic thing for the children involved.

I know that this reply sounds like I am just continuing to justify my actions and remain in the fog to those of you who choose to see things that way. I'll be honest that it is annoying to feel like I am not seen clearly, but I accept that others won't always see me clearly. Especially if they are attached to the belief that it MUST be possible to save any M and that the failure to do so automatically means that someone is not facing up to their issues. It was when I decided to drop that belief that I started to feel much better and find my way out of limbo hell. My STBXW has issues, and so do I, but independent of that is the truth that we simply aren't a good match for each other. If you really don't believe me on that, then go back and read my previous posts where I went through a long period of uncertainty, mulling over those differences not knowing whether I was missing something. I gradually got more and more clarity. Getting to that certainty about our mismatch was very liberating as it also allowed me to forgive her much more easily. I'm glad that I got to that point BEFORE any new R started with the OW. That gives me some peace of mind to know that my perception was not colored by the infatuation with the OW. Now that I'm getting closer to the OW, however, I must say that this is definitely the right outcome. Having someone compatible and who wants the same things makes all the difference in the world. I'm sure we'll have different challenges surface if our R continues long term, but we have a very solid friendship with good communication as a basis.

If there's one bit of feedback I would offer to the people on this forum, it's to keep an open mind when commenting on other people's threads. When giving advice, you really never know the full picture of what's going on for them. It may sound like they are in the fog of denial and just want to believe what makes them feel good at a given moment, but be careful. This may or may not be the case. You never really can know what the right outcome is for a given sitch, and it's not really about the outcome anyways. It's about the process. There's something important to be honored about each person's autonomy in coming to their own decisions through their own process. By going tough on people and telling them that they are in the fog, not taking responsibility for their side of the R problems, etc. you really do run the risk that you might be harming their already weakened self-esteem at a very difficult point in their life. That is the effect that some of you (but not all of you) have had on me over the past 6 months. I have felt at many times like I was on my own in terms of reassuring myself that I am a good person and that I am not somehow deficient. I suppose I needed all of you challenging me to give me the chance to stand up for myself against what many of you were saying. So for that opportunity, as unpleasant as it was, I thank you. I feel stronger in my sense of personal truth as a result. I suppose I would not have gained that otherwise.

[doodler]

JGuy,

You may be right, but to paraphrase Shakespeare, "The lad doth protest too much."

[JGuy]

Doodler, you are right, I doth protest too much. This will be my last post.

I have wanted this to be a place where I could receive support, but during the past 6 months the vast majority of what I have received is unwelcome challenge that doesn't resonate with me. When I wanted to save my M, I was told that I was being unrealistic and I should detach and GAL. When I detached and began to want out of the M, I was told that I was blaming everything on my W and my next R was sure to fail. When I shared the things that are inspiring me and helping me to grow, I was told that I was crazy for believing in those things (like astrology) and I should seek help. When I had multiple ICs and a shaman all telling me that my problem was that I undervalued myself, I was told that I was just hearing what I wanted to hear. When I dug deep and uncovered my own mistakes, I had my face rubbed in it instead being encouraged for my genuine effort to look at what I need to work on. When I shed tears and showed my vulnerability to my W, I was told that this would surely turn her off and that I should straighten up and be a "man". When I told my W "I'm coping as best I can", I was scolded for being a wussy. When I discovered deep insights into my sitch, I was told that knowing why is pointless and I should focus on action toward my goals. When I expressed my hurt about feeling misunderstood on this forum, I was told that I was being controlling. When I told the story about meeting this OW in a dream and eventually coming to find love with her after separating from my W, I was mocked and told that I am still deep in the fog.

This entire experience on DB forums has been one hurtful, negative, demoralizing comment after another when all I really needed was a hug and some validation. I'm not sure how this kind of tough feedback is supposed to actually help someone because it sure has not helped me. So, I hereby come to admit that I really don't belong here. I'm just not willing to continue subjecting myself to all of this awful disharmonious input that produces the exact opposite effect of validation.

Good luck to all of you who are still fighting the good fight. I am very happy with the outcome of my sitch and I have reached absolute certainty that this is the right outcome for me. Final bit of advice from JGuy is don't follow the book. Always follow your inner compass.

Over and out.

[Zues126]

JGuy, this post isn't aimed at you. It is clear where you stand, and I am not here to beat a dead horse which is why I haven't posted for so long. This is posted to the other forum members.

Jguy's post is a good reminder to really listen to where people are at. I know I've made posts I regret, and while I have forgiven myself because I am human and make mistakes, and while I know that hurt feelings are a cost of doing business in terms of being genuine, it doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

That said, don't allow his words to discourage you to continue to speak with conviction and challenge destructive behavior. Just as Jguy feels we have been hurtful to him, I know it can be hurtful to have that feedback rejected. And to many of us LBH's that have been labelled 'abusive' it doesn't feel great to be told that again in another venue. But I would point this out...for every person that responds this way, many more appreciate the guidance and tough love this forum provides at times. So please continue. It would be wrong to bite our tongues and stand by as others make destructive decisions in fear someone doesn't like what they hear.

There was a lot of good feedback. That doesn't mean that all of it is 100% applicable to JGuy, but it does mean that we should bring it up to our fellow DBers when something acts and quacks like a duck. He is ultimately responsible for making his choices and weighing that feedback, and right or wrong it is his journey. But you played your role in making some alternative outlooks available.

I have long marveled at how peaceful our community truly is. Given the magnitude of what we're going through, the sensitivity we feel due to our insecurities and the pain we're in, and the wide spectrum that exists in this day and age between beliefs, it is a marvel that this happens so rarely. I have never seen deliberate trolling, name calling, or posts meant to be hurtful. I am so appreciative of this forum and it wouldn't exist without all of you. So thank you for being brave enough to be vocal, and respectful enough to be thoughtful.

Let's respect JGuys wishes. He has made it clear that he doesn't wish to hear further challenges to his next steps. It's time to model the loving detachment and non-controlling behavior we talk about. Validating without agreeing as they say. Granted he may not be around anymore and this thread may die off, so it may not seem to matter. But I think what we do when no one is watching does matter, and I think it's appropriate to respect his choices on this subject. And it can be a final gesture of respect that while we have differences, we acknowledge his autonomy, and that he is free to live and thrive in whatever path he takes.

Jguy, I wish you well and I know you will be. I respect the fight you have fought and celebrate the improvements you've made. Make great things happen and enjoy all you've been blessed with.

[CWOL]

I'm surprised JGuy reacted so negatively about the feedback he's received here. This site is so much more supportive and gentle compared to other forums on the web. There are some that will just whack your head with a 2X4 for any tiny error or an errant comment that is suspected to be disrespectful. Talk about lack of positive motivation!