Hi DB'ers. Its been awhile since I last wrote. I had my first mediation session with SH last week and he was a hostile ass, but did concede to coming with me to MC one more time to explain a little more completely why he wants D.
We went last night. I am still super emotional about it. I had been very keen on NC for the month prior, had blocked his number (which he only put together on Sunday) and dropped my manic pursuing. I thought that he wasn't responding but four weeks into NC/first mediation-I started getting little one line emails from him (only way we could communicate as we had both blocked each other on all social media/phone) saying that he wanted to send me money, that he was worried about how I was getting by. He sent double the amount that he said he would.
i have just been responding with one line emails, keeping light conversation going. On Sunday am he said he was having a rough time and we spoke that afternoon. He said that he had written something about why he wanted to end the relationship to read at the MC and that he hoped I wouldn't be angry when I heard it. We talked for awhile and why I did the bad pursuers question, "do you ever miss me?" he said "all the time."
Yesterday I went to the MC for the meeting. He read his essay. To sum up, it was very loving and well articulated and said that he felt that he was being a bad husband to me and wasn't strong enough to deal with my BiPolar2 diagnosis. He also said that seeing me go through my miscarriage/termination and subsequent hospitalization made him terrified of getting me pregnant again. (more details about this are in previous thread--it was deeply traumatic.) He said that after that, he was afraid of having sex with me.
We both sat there and cried and I had a chance to explain to him that even though everyone seems against it, I am still in love with him. He said something of the same.
The MC ended the session by saying, "I just want to make a point here, as I have been seeing you two together for the past year, there is still a great deal of love here. When each of you are doing well individually, you are good partners for each other, its when one person starts to stumble that you get stuck in a negative feedback loop and communication breaks down. For some couples, divorce and separation are the best things that can happen to their relationship because it brings them together again."
He took my hand and walked me back to the train. Both of us were crying. I got on train and came back--text messages from him this am.
All my friends and family are dead set against him due to his depression/unemployment and erratic mode swings. As is my IC. But they don't understand how I feel inside. But still, here I am, finding myself re reading my DB stuff and scanning the forums to see if anyone else there is experiencing the same thing.
Any words of wisdom you might have--advice on how to try to rebuild, or I just need to work on letting go.
My love affair with Mr M, was passionate, exciting, adventureous and exposing and required me to completely make myself vulnerable and step out of my comfort. Mr M was and is everything I am not. A real live in the moment kinda a guy. A lover of freedom and excitement. He completely knocked me off my feet, because of the regularity at which he had me pushed outside my comfort zone. I was a really different person in his company, I felt like the best version of myself, courageous, brave, exciting, joyful, easy going. All the qualities I felt I had been searching for years within myself. He discovered ME. So I fell completely and addictedly in love with him.
If you ask my family and friends what they saw. They saw me achieve a huge number of things, I took up cycling, completed a number of road cycling events, I lost 40lbs while we were together in the first year, they saw me more confident in body, they saw me change my clothes, from frumpy invisibility to a flirty feminine style. They saw my self esteem change. What they also saw, was my constant obsessing, seconding guessing myself, my pandering to him and every whim he had, becoming submissive, dependent, sad, uncertain, giving up times with my friends and activities I enjoyed.
Did my family and friends like Mr M. Certainly they did, He was and is a guy to like. They just didn't like him for ME!
Mr M and I were in an off and on relationship for two and half years. Our cycle of passion and fun to I love you, but can't do this was initially very inticing to my little addictive-codependent personality. I laugh now, because I thought this was the most passionate love affair and relationship a girl could have. Was I wrong. This is a toxic love cycle.
Do I think Mr M and I loved/love each other. Absolutely! Was it a healthy kind of love for either of us, no way, we were killing each other, driving each other mad.
So many times people told each of us that this wasn't a good relationship, and we attempted to prevail. What I realised was that everything about us that made us super passionate and sexy, and exciting, were all the things that made the fireworks for our inability to make a stable relationship work.
I don't know if now after being apart for 5 years and with the evolution we have both made over the six years we have not been together, if we could make it work. I don't even think about it anymore. I think I have evolved past need to be with the person I was with him. I know I can bring out all of those qualities in myself should I choose to do so. I don't need or want my partner for those things. I want other things from a partner.
So guess Ladybr, the question is not really whether you would pursue a R with you H , at the disapproval of your family and friends. The questions is one of the worse case senario- are you willing to re-enter this relationship with H, with it being exactly as it was? Because that is what you are potentially considering at this point I believe.
Look I have worked with a lot of couples and families where both adults had significant mental health concerns. Initimate functioning relationships are impossible for couples in your sitch. However, and I do say however, the successful one's I have seen, have been based of two people who are committed to their own wellness and recovery first and the relationship second.
Ladybr, I feel in this instance with you and H. There just hasn't been sufficient time for either of you to even know what wellness and recovery is. It's like any addict, recovery is a personal journey, staying in a state of recovery and wellness takes focus and time. Learning what it means and what it takes to be well. In the timeframe you are talking, IMO insufficient time has passed.
If I was you, I would not be considering a R until I had seen for myself and from H consistency in behaviour, mood and lifestyle. I would also not be considering a R, until I felt I didn't need to ask this question anymore. If you know what I mean.
You ask about rebuilding or letting go. I vote is rebuilding. Rebuilding you. You may just find like I did, that once you rebuild you and your house, H and his furniture don't fit or match the decor. But you may also find the opposite if both you and H are willing to do the work required separately.
As always Ladybr, I love that you posted and sought advice.
LadyBr, I am happy to share my experiences. I hope they can allow someone to move towards and live in their happy place. Keep dropping by. It's nice to see you here. Jellyxxx
The one idea that keeps coming to my mind is this- a marriage is a forever commitment.
You said: I don't know if now after being apart for 5 years and with the evolution we have both made over the six years we have not been together, if we could make it work.
I think it's a shame so many marriages fail without having that opportunity.
I'm not putting words in your mouth now, just talking about me. What I loathe is society's view that you leave a marriage because it is a destructive cycle, go through a period of rebirth and rediscovery, mature, learn how to be a better partner, then try to rebuild a new marriage with someone else later. To me that isn't marriage. You can call it a marriage. But my definition of marriage is a lifelong commitment, so we're using the same word for two different things.
I'm not suggesting any action that reinvests in a destructive cycle. But I think giving up is wrong.
Ginger challenged me the other day about staying in a relationship that is dysfunctional or has emotional abuse. I don't have all the answers. But I have some ideals. One of them goes like this- why does the answer have to be divorce?
Say someone gets to the point where they feel threatened, or unable to be themselves without fear in their own household. Say that person gets to the point when they feel it is negatively impacting the kids, themselves, etc. OK. For now I won't debate what that limit should be. But suppose, instead of filing divorce, killing the relationship, moving on, dating other people, and remarrying...suppose that person just separated, got some space, and lived singly, raising their kids, staying legally married. Suppose that person set some firm boundaries to protect themselves.
If M is a lifelong commitment, doesn't that mean you give that person those 5 years to see if they are capable of that change?
From what I've seen on these forums people feel very needy and desperate to be loved by someone, and entitled to that. It's part of their life plan, that someone will treat them the way they want to be treated. So the whole 'should I give up' is a constant game of evaluating the chances of their spouse doing for them what they feel entitled to.
I don't know. I feel like society thinks I'm crazy for suggesting that there is purpose and meaning in remaining in a committed relationship indefinitely with no guarantee of reciprocation. So many people talk about moving on and finding someone that will...fill in the blank. Someone that will grow with them. Someone they can be themselves with. Someone more mature. Etc. To me that sounds crazy.
I have used this comparison before but it's been a long time and the newer posters haven't heard it. I view a marriage as a commitment equal to choosing to have kids. Suppose a person had a child, and they thought their child would be a football player like them, but they don't want to play football. Suppose that child had emotional problems and there was a dysfunctional relationship. Should the parent give the child up for adoption and try again to have a kid they want? Most people would think that's outrageous...but when it comes to spouses, it's encouraged, "good for you, you deserve better".
I get that if your spouse divorces you, moves on, starts a new relationship, remarries...well, you move on as well. The same way that if your child ran away from home and fell off the planet, well, I could see considering starting another family someday. But until that happens, I guess I just don't see why more people don't stay true to their partner. Give them a year. Give them five. See what is possible.
Some of the people on this forum that have saved their marriages stood by for a number of years and endured multiple affairs, in fact entire relationships in between. Mr. Bond comes to mind. It's pretty inspiring. We hear stories of people remarrying after 5 or 10 years. I didn't always get it, but I do. Each of us gets to define what marriage means to us. Our spouses can do what they want to do, but we get to decide who we want to be, what we believe in. And to me the desire to jump into a new relationship to get what we feel we deserve is along the same lines of those that walked in the first place.
Lady, JB, this was more just stuff I've been thinking a lot about. JB's words are more relevant to your current sitch. I'm all about being detached, having no expectations, and letting go in the sense of not needing the R to work for you to appreciate the life you've been given. Whatever gives your family the best chance at health and happiness I'm all for. But if you do let go, I'd encourage you to let go in a way that involves you giving him space to take his journey, and not in a way that involves you building a different life that closes doors behind you. I don't believe in closing doors on a spouse.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
By the way JB, I wasn't including you with "society", and when I used the word 'you', it wasn't YOU, it was just the hypothetical 'one could' do such and such. Just want to be clear on that.
Also, I recognize that I may be judgmental and critical and controlling, and my dislike for divorce is a reflection of my pain from my loss and me continuing to be critical of my XW's choice. But I don't think that's all of it. I also think I'm a good man, and could be a good partner in a relationship. And I am sad we didn't get the chance to find out. Everyone is capable of change if you give them enough time IMHO. And if they don't, at least you'll know you did what's right and your part.
OK, my new 180 goal- 24 hours without a tirade about commitment. Starting...NOW!
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
Zues, you gorgeous human being. You and I are not that far away from each other. You dear friend are far more eloquant, than I am at describing DBing in action. I am a complete novice.
Ladybr you are fortunate enough to have two have posters that can likely cover the gamet of the Dbing experience. Zues is a Dbing pro and he understands the intricancies and naunces of detachment and how to stand without feeling like you are sacrificing your soul and life. His commitment to commitment, allows him to give creative advice about how to get you want you want, which is your H and your marriage, while keeping yourself intact.
My strength is likely the recovery process from the damaging relationship dymanics and other opportunistic life experiences (mental health issues) that impact on functioning and making a healthy relationship work.
Take what you will from both of us, because either way Zues and I are on the same team. We're on team Ladybr, and we want you to have the best M possible.
Jellyxxx
PS: Feel free to test my thinking any day! It's privilege!
By the way JB, I wasn't including you with "society", and when I used the word 'you', it wasn't YOU, it was just the hypothetical 'one could' do such and such. Just want to be clear on that.
Also, I recognize that I may be judgmental and critical and controlling, and my dislike for divorce is a reflection of my pain from my loss and me continuing to be critical of my XW's choice. But I don't think that's all of it. I also think I'm a good man, and could be a good partner in a relationship. And I am sad we didn't get the chance to find out. Everyone is capable of change if you give them enough time IMHO. And if they don't, at least you'll know you did what's right and your part.
OK, my new 180 goal- 24 hours without a tirade about commitment. Starting...NOW!
Oh sweet man! No need to tread lightly with me Zues. We understand each other perfectly! That bolded bit ^^^^ I know as well as I know the back of my hand.
Zues and JellyB I am grateful for all of your reflection and thoughts. Today I am struggling a little because I think I need to make a firmer boundary with SH. Since this conversation above, he has been texting me in very friendly ways--checking up during the snowstorm, etc. Part of my wants to have hope (I have been rereading DB too) but another part of me knows that things can't just be friendly like they were before. This man wants to D me and I can't just go on being old accommodating, cheerful Ladybir.
I really respect both of your positions. I know in my own life that I have had relationships like the kind you had with Mr. M, relationships that now seem like a too small pair of shoes.
Zues, I also agree with you, although I know that in my case, the conflict over having children means that my time is running a bit short if I want to try to NC with someone else. Otherwise, I would agree that separating and seeing what falls where would be more my speed.
I wish I could look into a crystal ball and know the future, know the best path, but I guess it is one of the joys and cruelty of life that we only have the moment we live in, right now.
That said, Zues, I would be very curious to hear exactly HOW you detached--what does that look like? How did you deal with day to day communications? Do you have any suggestions? I am doing my best to keep busy, to GAL. I was NC for awhile and although it was hard, I think it was a more empowering position. I am contemplating going dark again even though things are in a more peaceful place with SH.
At the end of the week I have mediation with SH, It just seems so strange that we could chit chat right up to that appointment. I think JB is right--I need to focus on rebuilding me, as painful as it is.
