I know you want to personalize your W's behavior as directly tied to your success of failure in DBing. I totally agree with Sage when she told you:
Don't think this is trite but your w's behavior has NOTHING to do with you and your DB success. It has everything to do with her. There is NOTHING in your post to indicate "fraud" or "failure".
It also sounds like you are now doubting your own perceptions and judgment (i.e. you thought things were improving greatly, but now think it was all a "lie".)
I would tend to disagree. I am not at all condoning your wife's behaviour, but it also doesn't sound to me like she is insincere about her love for you and desire to work on your M. It sounds to me like she is operating in some duality of thinking, compartmentalizing the visits with OG, and not seeing that it could or would have any affect on you or your M.
Still, I totally understand your feeling the need to give an ultimatum. I think the secrecy is very damaging, but again--she likely is compartmentalizing the whole issue.
No 2x4 from me about snooping. I am one of the few here who really believe I have the right to know if I'm being lied to or betrayed. I like to make my decisions based on fact and you know the quote: "trust but verify". So if you're getting 2x4's, I'm sure I will too.
Unfortunately, snooping can become an obsessive thing, and if someone knows you're snooping, it only teaches them to be better at hiding they really want to hide something. That's the downside. BTW, how DID you explain what you found out to your W?
OG lied to you of course, but have you considered that he lied to try to protect your relationship with her rather than trying to protect his relationship with her?
I understand your fear that OG may sabotage you now that you've clearly drawn your line in the sand. I think it's far more likely that he may panic that take advantage of the situation. Remember the fantasy aspect of A's. Do you honestly think he wants her showing up at his door one day with 2 kids and expecting him to step up to the plate because he contributed to causing your M to end? I highly doubt it, he'd probably turn tail and RUN.
As sad as I am for you, I don't think you're failing at DBing or should give up hope.
You have been a kind, patient, understanding and accepting man. My conclusion though is that it is now time for the gloves to come off. Let's look at the very basic facts. She continues to lie and contact him. You ask her questions and she always lies. Please don't even bother asking her the questions anymore because you are wasting your time, right? This is not reactionary, I have been there. My W tested me on just what I would tolerate so I showed her. I didn't continue to be accepting when I couldn't accept her behavior. I didn't keep secret my covert knowledge, I exposed her. Was she happy? Not in the least but you don't have to scarifice your standards because she is. The D threat was needed and will probably work for a while. Yes, for a while. She just keeps lying and deceiving. Even her words and actions towards you are deceitful. My W was especially affectionate and sexual while she was on match.com everyday for hours at a time. She wasn't about to abandon the current ship until the new one was ready to go. That is one rule that women cheaters seem to follow. The men will chase the A without securing their current sitch. Men seem to focus on one where women tend to share their "love".
She can't let her A go so maybe you should encourage it. Ask her to leave. I told my W that any "pursuit" behavior would not be tolerated under my roof and if it did her things would be on the front porch with the locks changed. I told her that she is free to do what she wants on her own but not here. She asked me why I didn't leave. I said that I am not the one that wants out. You have been a confronter during this whole sitch and that is good but follow-through is necessary.
Please keep an eye on the depression, been there too. Take care of yourself and your children. Don't waste your time with more advanced snooping. It is a complete wast of time. She will just try harder to not get caught and now you made it a "game" and you won't win.
First of all, I continue to be astounded by the parallels in our stories. For your sake, I hope you will be encouraged by mine, which although it has taken many bad turns, continues to become more and more hopeful with each passing month.
I share your frustration at the continued contact between OM and W. I also finally gave my W an ultimatum about continued contact, and I believe the ultimatum was a sort of 180 on my part. Perhaps it will be for you too. Read Smoochie's threads and you will see that sometimes your accomodation of your W's behavior is not what you want to do in your DB efforts. Remember, do more of what works and don't do less of what doesn't. Your situation is unique, and whether or not an ultimatum works for you depends on you and your W. There is no pat answer to whether snooping and ultimatums work. If your W is pushing you to test your limits (sort of a very sick love test), then "laying down the law", so to speak, may actually be the 180 you need. It's up to you to decide. Personally, I identified very much with the story in DR of the man who continually let his W step all over him. In finally standing up for himself, he found the 180 that worked for him. I hope that your ultimatum will work for you. So far, it has for me.
Quote: Today, I still have that feeling of doom, but I'm functioning. I guess there's nothing to do but take it day by day. I haven't given up all hope. I suppose there's still a chance for us. I won't change back into the bad habits I had before February. But I don't know that there's anything more I can do, but hope that she demonstrates some character and lives up to her promises. Wish I had a little more faith in that.
Welcome to my world! Things are looking up, however, in that department. Look for a new post on my sluggish piecing thread tommorrow or Monday for more info on that, though. You've done all you can do except watch, wait and continue with what you've been doing. It's time for your W to step up to the plate now.
Thanks for your thoughts. I often get the sense that you and I think a lot alike.
Quote: So I guess I CAN tell you that for me, over time, I'm gaining back trust in CJ that I thought would never come. It's taken time, reassurances, and NO FURTHER EVIDENCE of contact with OW.
That's great to hear, that it's possible to get that trust back. Hard to see it ever happening in my case, but I won't rule it out. Ya know, if it weren't for great stories of success like yours, Sage's, and Talitsa's, I wouldn't ever come back to these boards. I can handle a certain amount of reading about other's woes if at least there are some happy endings.
Quote: You alluded to W's mom having breakdown at 40, what kind of disorders run in your W's family, Brian? Might have some insight there.
Her mom's case is the only one I know of. My W talks about how normal her mother was, way back when. The 1st really strange thing my W can recall was whan her parents divorced (my W was in high school). Shortly after, her mom got a new boyfriend and told him that her kids weren't actually hers, but were her XH's from a prior M. She had her breakdown several years later. Then, through psychotherapy, she had a "recovered memory" of being sexually abused by her father (no corroborating evidence, including from her sister who is close in age to her. My W thinks that the abuse probably never happened). Since I've known her (about 11 years), she's gotten more and more bizarre. She became extremely religious, and was absolutely shocked when our 2nd child was a boy, since God had "told her" that it would be a girl. She basically cut us out of her life about 3 years ago, in part because of an incident where she thought that my W had tried to get her daughter to poison her. She is functional enough that she can't be committed, while simultaneously too insane to realize that her mental problems aren't normal (she refuses to see a psychiatrist). My W hasn't had any contact with her in about a year.
I know that my W has had a fear of this happening to her. For example, years ago I once joked that my W was becoming like her mother. She became extremely upset about that (and I've never made that same mistake again!). I sometimes wonder whether my W has some strange mental thing going on, but I would imagine we all think that about our aliens, huh?
ACTUALLY, Brian, what you described of her mother fits pretty well with a mild case of Schizophrenia, paranoid type! If she'd sort of always been this way, from adolescence, I might think of a personality disorder...but not with an onset at 40.
40 is, unfortunately not an unusal age for women to express this disease. I know a little something about this personally, as well as professionally, as my paternal grandfather had Paranoid Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder and other eccentricities abound on that side.
Interestingly, when people hear "Schizophrenia" they think of straight jackets and back wards....in reality 70% lead pretty much normal lives on the "outside".
Schizophrenia DOES have one of the highest heritability rates...in the general population the risk is 1%, with one parent the risk is 17%. Certainly no guarantee!
Symptoms of the paranoid type include, of course, paranoia...but these delusions can be quite bizarre...poisening and plots are common themes.
Interestingly, Paranoid Schizophrenia is the highest functioning of the types (less evidence of grossly disturbed thoughts/ language), and responds better than the rest to standard meds.
Can you tell I've been on the boards too long and should be working on a psychology lecture?
Sorry for all the technicalities, dude...stopped just short of getting into the neurotransmitters!
Quoting talitsa:It also sounds like you are now doubting your own perceptions and judgment (i.e. you thought things were improving greatly, but now think it was all a "lie".)
I would tend to disagree. I am not at all condoning your wife's behaviour, but it also doesn't sound to me like she is insincere about her love for you and desire to work on your M. It sounds to me like she is operating in some duality of thinking, compartmentalizing the visits with OG, and not seeing that it could or would have any affect on you or your M.
This is sort of how my W says it is. It's almost like she would be perfectly happy leading a complete double life, wouldn't be conflicted by it. I read about such a case just about a week ago, in which a guy had a double life with 2 wives, neither of who knew about the other until he died.
Quote: BTW, how DID you explain what you found out to your W?
She asked, but I refused to answer. I told her that the only reason she would need to know the answer to that was so that she could do a better job of hiding the evidence, and she backed off. She's probably already figured out that it's the computer anyway.
Quote: OG lied to you of course, but have you considered that he lied to try to protect your relationship with her rather than trying to protect his relationship with her?
I understand your fear that OG may sabotage you now that you've clearly drawn your line in the sand. I think it's far more likely that he may panic that take advantage of the situation. Remember the fantasy aspect of A's. Do you honestly think he wants her showing up at his door one day with 2 kids and expecting him to step up to the plate because he contributed to causing your M to end? I highly doubt it, he'd probably turn tail and RUN.
That's an interesting take. He did offer to back off immediately, even before I asked him to, which I found a little surprising.
Quote: As sad as I am for you, I don't think you're failing at DBing or should give up hope.
Quote: She can't let her A go so maybe you should encourage it. Ask her to leave.
I gave that a lot of thought and almost did. I told her that if she wanted to go to him, I wouldn't stand in her way, wouldn't beg her to stay. I asked her why she didn't. She said that she wanted to be with me. True or not, it's damn hard to kick her out when she says that.
Well, the ultimatum is out there now. You're right, that follow-through is necessary, hard as it would be. I think to this point she's pretty much banked on knowing that I would always give her one more chance. I sure hope she takes me seriously now, though.
I do find encouragement in your story. It took me a long time and, as you know, finding out numerous times about new contacts, to get to this point of giving her an ultimatum. I had forgotten that you had given your W such an ultimatum. Glad to hear it worked out. Let's hope the parallels in our situations continue!
I'll be interested to read the update to your thread.
I know a little something about this personally, as well as professionally, as my paternal grandfather had Paranoid Schizophrenia and Bipolar Disorder and other eccentricities abound on that side.
