we're not talking about divorce or moving into separate houses - not really. We've agreed to rent somewhere together once the sale of this house goes through. He knows I'm not happy and don't feel safe enough to get into another big debt with him - but it isn't something we discuss regularly. I think you're right that it's too early to be making decisions like that - and yes, extreme given that there's no affair or abuse involved and he's an excellent father so the kids are better off with him than they would be without him as a resident parent.
Goals? Yes - I did write some down and we did seem to be headed in the right direction.
This week has taken a turn for the worse though. He's been barely speaking to me - at all. There's been no physical contact whatsoever and he doesn't even make eye contact with me when he does speak to me. It feels like a big step back and I don't know what has caused it.
About ten days ago he mentioned wanting to go out together tonight and arranged for the kids to sleep over at a relative's house. My jaw just about hit the floor. I said yes, great, and asked him what time he needed me to be back from work. He let me know, I put it on the calendar and left it at that. I didn't mention it again through the week (trying not to pursue him) and this morning he told me and the kids that he'd cancelled the sleepover because it wasn't convenient anymore. I asked him why, and he said we'd never had a firm arrangement in the first place, and in any case, all he wanted to do was have a nice day. I don't know exactly what he means - other than to think that either talking to me about why he's changed his mind, or going out somewhere with me, and having a nice day aren't compatible things. I said I didn't understand, and he packed up some stuff and went out.
I've been reading a lot this week about pursuit and distance and about the difference between loving detachment and cold or angry withdrawal. I've been sticking with my goals of being friendly without chasing him, not asking him for anything, etc etc. But I've not been cold or sulky. I do feel angry - and really disgusted with how he's behaving. I feel more and more like I am just a paycheck to him, and so long as I ask for nothing, say nothing, and expect nothing, he's content to continue drawing the cheque. I'm not sure if he's picking up on that attitude or not, but it is how I feel, and maybe he is.
If that's true, then I am getting detachment all wrong. Apparently withdrawing in cold hostility is the classic behaviour of pursuers who are trying to control their distancing partner. I don't want to do that. There are behaviours and actions I'd like to see from him - my goals - but I don't want to control him in order to extract them.
I'm feeling bad today. I can't really tell, in my own heart, whether I am detaching in order to take care of myself, or if I am withdrawing in order to punish and control him. I guess my behaviour is staying as consistent to my goals as I can manage (not perfect) but my feelings change from day to day.
Most of the time, I feel a bit better about myself - a bit less like a child, or a punch bag, than I used to - these changes are helping me. I feel like I have more self respect now I've stopped chasing him. I guess I always wondered what our relationship would look like if I wasn't always initiating the conversations, the affection, the time together, the R talk, the making up after things had been distant for a while. I always feared that if I didn't do all that emotional work, there would be very little between us. And I hated myself for being the person doing it all - and resented him for my choice too. So now I am not doing it.
It has been like a scientific experiment in some ways. I see that things are calmer - he certainly seems calmer now that he seems to 'get' that I'm not running after him anymore. That I'm not going to cry and whine if he ignores me for a few days, or sleeps elsewhere for weeks on end, or decides not to ask me about my day or share any details of his. I think that has made him feel safer. And perhaps he's coming out of his shell a little more - coming towards me a bit. But it's been inconsistent. I see small changes, but no pattern of definite progress.
And to be fair, I'm talking progress towards my goals - what I want to see him doing, and what I want from the relationship - they aren't his goals. I have no idea what he wants from me or us. Probably, given his behaviour, he wants me to be quiet, to leave him alone, and to pay for things. I can't see anything else that he wants from me.
But this information - the results of this experiment with detachment (if I have even been achieving that) has made me wonder if I really want to go on with this. I've learned he's happiest when I leave him alone and ask for nothing. I've learned I have more self respect and feel better about myself and am generally happier when I don't ask him for anything. I've learned that I do want emotional intimacy and friendship, and it means nothing if I control another person, manipulate them, or chase them, in order to get it.
I guess I am learning that for whatever reason, what I want isn't on offer from him. Right now, or ever, I don't know. But I am seeing that I am married to a man who has ZERO tolerance for intimate conversation, difficult conversation, confrontation of any kind (even mild, respectfully stated minor disagreement) and one who for whatever reason - our past, his character, his own goals, his fear, his anger - whatever - is unable or unwilling to move towards me while still feeling fine about letting me financially support him, his hobbies and his education.
I don't know what to do with all this. I don't want to make a rash decision and I don't want to change what I am doing - the way I've decided to act for my own self respect and happiness. But I feel like I'm seeing clearly, and what I see in him, I don't like and don't respect. He looks, more and more, like a coward who would rather live dishonestly than suffer the discomfort of self examination, honest conversation, or change.
I can't do anything today. I'm hurt and disappointed that he cancelled our plans without notice or explanation, and has chosen not to tell me why. That might be clouding my judgement right now. It might not be. I think I need more time for GAL and reflection before re-evaluating things. But I thought I would journal it all here and ask for insight and correction too.
I think I need to get to the point where I can feel good about my own choices (which would mean knowing that I am treating the people around me with respect for their boundaries and compassion and kindness) and also feel something for him - not that I need him, or that I resent him, or I want him to fix my problems, but just compassion and kindness and interest. In all truth, at the moment, I don't think that. I think he's a self serving coward and I'm angry at him.
I am going to prescribe myself some solitary and with kids GAL time this weekend.
SJ - I'm glad to hear about the personal growth you are experiencing, even through troubling R times. What is advise right now is to not make any major decisions while you are in the state of pain and disappointment from missing out on your date. Give the waters a time to calm down within you and then see where you are.
Maybe it's time to revisit your goals. Are there new ones to add? Some that you can mark off?
Yes, time to revisit my goals. I'm not sure what I want right now. I want to keep up with not pursing while being friendly. I've not really seen any great moves from him that suggest to me that turning things up a notch and initiating conversations, time together, R talk etc would be a great move right now.
In terms of what I want to see from him - I don't know. I know what kind of relationship I would like to have eventually. I don't know if, given his character, it is going to be with him. I don't know if I want it to be with him. It's sad, but honesty and integrity are most important to me right now. I need to be honest with myself and I think I need space and calm and to forget about him and what I want to see from him in order to devote the time to digging into my own truth first.
Thanks for replying. How are things going with you?
Today I am thinking more and more of ending this. I am so tired. It hurts me to be ignored. It hurts me that my husband prefers not to talk to me, not to look at me, doesn't like touching me or sleeping with me, has no interest in my life and doesn't want to hear anything about mine. But those are the facts.
Why am I tolerating this? Why am I supporting his every need, financing his hobbies, putting a roof over his head? Why am I doing that for someone who is communicating how little I mean to him?
And how can he have so little integrity and so much emotional cowardice that he's happy with that situation? If he doesn't want me, why doesn't he just leave?
I am going to prescribe myself some solitary and with kids GAL time this weekend.
HI Jenny not sure if I have posted on us thread before, but I've read your theeads.
I had a giant post for you and lost it
Basically says great idea on getting out and starting to treat yourself like you deserve to be treated. Take the kids have a great weekend.
Sorry for brevity...I will check back in this weekend...we have Halloween activities and kids soccer championships this weekend so crazy day today - yay! wouldn't trade that for anything,
You are doing it because you believe in the possibility of a great R together later. It is normal to have doubts, esp when you have had a prolonged period where everything indicates he is finished.
I understand completely your thinking and only you can answer that. I just reread my three threads and that seems to be my underlying theme too.
Early on I assessed this and after overcoming the fears and practical aspects, I decided I wanted my W and my family.Maybe it will take a separation to do that, but best option seemed to work from within.
At times I thought that I was making slight progress. But in reality I don't think so. There were recent signs that ye were making progress too. You can again.
Yes it is very hard to support. And it cannot be supported forever. Nor should it be. I can't see my W loving me fully again, but the thing is 9 years ago when we got married I could not see her not loving me. So feeling can change.That is a fact.
I would just ask you to ask yourself if you have tried everythingand if you have really invested in becoming the best you possible.I know I can be better so I am using this time for that.When I am happy with me and no improvement then I may have to decide otherwise.
I echo what az advised.
Whatever you chose I am proud that you stood up for your M. We will be here for you either way.
Good luck
R 25 years M 14 years S11 & S13 Working on it alone since Oct 2014 M in trouble a lot earlier (~2 years) Feb 2016. 1st R chat in a yr. Next R chat Aug'17 Still together
...Why am I tolerating this? Why am I supporting his every need, financing his hobbies, putting a roof over his head? Why am I doing that for someone who is communicating how little I mean to him?...
You are going through a very difficult time SpinningJenny and it must be very tough for you. The simple reason why, is because you still love him and you are going through a phase of reflection that we all do?.
Supporting his hobbies is allowing him to function as normal with no consequences of his negative actions. Is this something you would allow you children to do?
Had you considered starting to cut the finances up into separate accounts and giving him a weekly allowance for stuff that he needs to buy for all of you, nothing more? You may think that it will push him away, he's doing a lot more than that and so you'll need to sit him down and start drawing a path in his mind as to where you see things going. Separate finances now, rented house next, he moves into his own place after that (where he supports himself) and you'll buy something on your own for you and the kids...
Gently, compassionately but firmly show him the future. Expect some explosions, simply be calm, you see no other option and he'll be rattled even more and it may make him think about something other than himself.
- Nobody has ever learnt anything important from happiness and success; problems make us grow - Consult your plan, not your feelings - If you haven't set goals, how can you expect to achieve anything?
Thanks guys. I really appreciate these pep talks and advice.
I'm not sure where we go from here. There seems to be a pattern - he does try to get closer to me in some way, and when it doesn't go how he wants (and I'm only guessing here - I have no idea at all what he wants), he explodes in a tirade of nastiness or pettiness and gives me the silent treatment.
Last week he initiated sex with me. VERY VERY RARE. I told him I was pleased, I was loving and responsive. He did a particular thing, I told him I wasn't ready for that and would he slow down a bit. About two minutes later, he did it again. I said, 'I feel a bit rushed. Can you just [insert specific request here].' About two minutes later he did the thing I'd asked him not to again. I turned the light on and said, 'this has upset me. I don't want to carry on. I'm going to get dressed and go to sleep now.'
In the morning I approached him and held his hand and said I was ready and willing to listen to him, I wasn't going to push him, I wasn't going to attack him, but I needed him to respect my boundaries. He ignored me for another two days, and threw some of my possessions away because he was angry that my desk was messy. It was nothing important, so I ignored this.
Today he said he wanted to talk. I said great, I will listen to you, please tell me what is on your mind. He spoke for ten minutes about how unreasonable I am, about how I have no right to treat him like he's sexually assaulted me (I never accused him of this, never used those words) and have no right to sit there all calm and dignified (!!!). I said, 'I want to listen to you, but you're going to have to stop swearing at me. There are things I'd like to share with you too, if you're willing to listen?' He did a nasty impression of me. I left the room. He followed me upstairs. So I left the house for a few hours.
I am going to follow your advice about the money. I don't plan to support his hobbies any more. I plan to live my life as separately as I can. I'm certain I don't want to live with him - he is a grown man and can fend for himself. I suspect this will come as a surprise to him, even after the conversations I've had with him.
I don't think he's a bad man. I think, for some reason, he just isn't able to talk about how he feels, ask for what he wants, and listen to how I feel. It looks to me like he feels attacked and terrified and he goes on the defensive - and that me having a boundary about how he speaks to me, or how he touches me, is interpreted by him as me attacking him. Because I won't allow myself to be his punch bag any longer, and because I'm not coddling him to get him out of his sulking, I think he's really scared that things are changing.
But all these are his problems to fix, or not, as he sees fit. I feel I have to concentrate on my own life right now. I know I don't want to be close to someone who can't treat me with respect.
