The Hen House

[cat04]

Train,

I actually read your post twice this morning and I'm glad I did. (Had to take a break to let the dog out lol)...

First, I want to say that twice now I believe you have read more into what I was saying and I would caution you to be careful of that tendency. Not because it offends me but because it leads to misinterpretation of the words that were written. You don't know me so you don't know that I am a pretty straight shooter. What I say is generally exactly what I mean. I am not generally one of those "cryptic" posters.

I may have in the far gone past (I've been posting here for what seems like forever), said that I believe feminism (rather the feminist movement) is primarily responsible for emasculating men, but I don't believe that I have said that recently.

What I do believe is that there are merits in the feminist movement (ie, empowering women, intolerance to abuse, equal rights under the law), I also believe that there are many draw backs to it as well. Those draw backs have unfortunately left the men in this society with a very confused definition of what is expected of them from society versus what has been expected of them historically.

I come from a very traditional background. I saw strong men who were the head of their house. They laid down the rules and those were the rules. They provided for their families and had expectations of who did what and so forth. That does not mean that they did not respect or love their wives and children or that they were cruel in any way. They were able to "bend" with societal changes. And so were the women.

Ok, have to go to work...will continue this this afternoon.

Good conversation

[Train]

10-4. In a quick read-through, I probably wouldn't have differentiated between "feminism" and "feminist movement" ... or even a general reference to either. So that could have very likely been my bad, which is why I added the caveat:

(if I'm remembering correctly)

Thank you for setting me straight on that and on your position, with which I wholeheartedly agree:

What I do believe is that there are merits in the feminist movement (ie, empowering women, intolerance to abuse, equal rights under the law), I also believe that there are many draw backs to it as well. Those draw backs have unfortunately left the men in this society with a very confused definition of what is expected of them from society versus what has been expected of them historically.

[Mach1]

Those draw backs have unfortunately left the men in this society with a very confused definition of what is expected of them from society versus what has been expected of them historically.

Historically ? OR genetically ?

Where is that line between instinct and making that conscious decision to not act ??

Would you say, that society killed chivalry ??

The Woman's movement killed chivalry ??

What does chivalry look like to a Woman today ??

I think that most Men WANT to be chivalrous...

Our instincts are to be chivalrous...

So, is it society ? Comfort ? Women's liberation ? Laziness (on the Man's role) ?

Where is the line, between chivalry and being emasculated ??

[RosaLinda]

On the subject of emasculating men. Society tends to force gender specific roles whether we want it too or not. Men are raised to to support their families. So they tend to identify themselves with work. Women are raised to have babies and take care of them. So they identify themselves more with their children and families. So when a man is unable to provide he gets lost and has nothing anchoring him till he finds a new means to support his family. I don't know if its the woman or society that emasculates the man, it just happens.

LT, I agree, society does sort of force roles on men and women, and I think part of this is the different genders' natures, caused by their hormones estrogen and progesterone.

But this natural phenomena is not what I meant by emasculating men, and I do not think it is what Cat meant either, especially after reading her post above regarding feminism. I meant women putting their male partners down, making them feel less-than, unworthy, stupid. My ex made me feel like this for many years, so I know of what I speak, from the opposite perspective. And I did not always show him the appreciation and admiration that I think men need LOL

I think you have to include the role of mass media in all of this. In the uk there's are many adverts for products that if they were advertised in the same disparaging way with the make/female roles reversed they would be decried and likely banned. These contribute to wider societal emasculation of men and we start to see it replicated in the home. (There are other issues in the way the media portray men and women as well I know)

Jim, TV advertisements are the same way here; it's really awful. In a weak attempt at humor, they all show the male/husband to be a weak, stupid stumbling idiot, who cannot figure out the simplest thing. The woman/wife/daughter swoops in and saves the day by cleverly purchasing the advertised product, of course. I talked to my ex about this once, and he said it really made him feel badly for our two sons. He was afraid that TV would make them start to see themselves as somehow less valuable and useful members of society, and would cause their wives to see them this way too.

Those draw backs have unfortunately left the men in this society with a very confused definition of what is expected of them from society versus what has been expected of them historically.

Historically ? OR genetically ?
Where is that line between instinct and making that conscious decision to not act ??

As a nurse, I believe a LOT of our nature is due to our hormones, a LOT is due to our genes, and a LOT to the environment in which we were raised. But that as evolved people, we can choose to over come a lot of our genetic makeup and all, and choose to act in a different way from our instincts.

What does chivalry look like to a Woman today ??

I think that most Men WANT to be chivalrous...

Our instincts are to be chivalrous...

Although I do not consider myself a feminist, I believe in gender equality, in many ways. Equal pay for equal work, and all that. I have worked 2 jobs for most of my adult life to support my family, and feel that stuff like that, who will earn the bacon and who will cook it, are decisions each family has the right to decide.

BUT I love a chivalrous man, who does stuff like opening the door for me. It makes me feel loved and protected. Just sayin........

[Feenix]

To me expectations are a lot of the problems, and more specifically when they lead to resentment because they aren't met without reflection on how or if they were communicated and whether they are fundamentally reasonable. I think these expectations can really emasculate men, particularly as they increase in scope. Generally I think a lot of men (me included) have quite fragile egos and 'the pecking order' (had to use that one) is evolutionary ingrained in us - we are very sensitive to perceived failure, and thus dropping down the order.

Jim, yes! I agree with this. I read MMWV a few years into my then, M, and it was so eye-opening. I'd been told that men and women are different...duh, right? But to have an author explain why/how and how to relate to each other was great.

I do think that our expectations of how we "think" the other person "should" do something because they is the way that we do it really gets in the way of us just appreciating our unique differences.

So often, our resentment comes from expectations that we shouldn't have in the first place. Life is a lot more fun and peaceful when we let go of some of those expectations and therefore, let go of the resentment.

[TSquared2]

Part of the problem, imo, is that unless you are in farming, ranching or a family business, etc., boys get too little time experiencing their Dads as men.

My own case: My Dad through my growing up worked 10-12 hours a day, came home, we ate dinner as a family, then he would go into his den and do more work, or study his Air War College material, etc. I had little interaction with him.

My Grandfather tried to fill in that gap, and was actually more the mentoring father I wished I had in my father.

A couple quotes from the book "Fight Club" really struck deep within me:

"What you see at fight club is a generation of men raised by women."

"My father never went to college so it was really important I go to college. After college, I called him long distance and said, now what?

My dad didn't know, so he said get a job.

When I got a job and turned twenty-five, long distance, I said, now what?

My dad didn't know, so he said, get married.

I'm a thirty-year-old boy, and I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer I need."

Too many men fail to be "Men" role-models for boys.

Look at education...where boys spend most of their days:

The numbers aren’t too rosy when it comes to education either. In the last 30 years the percentage of male teachers in elementary schools has fallen slightly, from 17% to 14-9% (depending on the source). The number is even lower for pre-k and kindergarten teachers; only 2% are male. While more male teachers can be found in secondary schools, there has been a decline there as well, from 50% in 1980 to around 40% today. With boys falling behind girls in academic performance, some education experts are actively trying to recruit men into the profession.

I cannot remember having ANY male teachers until middle school.

So most of our young modelling is directed by women. Most kids want to please their elders, so boys learn what it takes to please their mothers, female teachers, etc. (sit still, don't be so loud, yadda yadda).

Imo, boys need men actively mentoring in their lives, whether their fathers, male relatives, coaches, etc. Women can teach boys what women want in men, how to be a good man (from a woman's POV), but they can't teach or model for them to be "men", imo.

In my own M, there is a big difference between my oldest son, who grew up when both mom and Dad were working (I worked days mostly, she worked nights, and the oldest and I spent tons of time just the two of us), and the two younger sons, after I made enough so she could be a SAHM (which was both of our goals). To be fair, my stbxw was very possessive of the kids, one of her issues, that most women wouldn't be.

One of the upsides of stbxw's MLC is that now, I have full physical custody, and finally get to be fully the kind of father I should have been, and wanted to be. They see how Dad does things, how Dad really is a parent and role model. Dad doing what men do. After the last 3-5 years, they "get" why I am teaching them everything about self-sufficiency, so they will never be dependent on a partner for taking care of themselves.

The difference since she moved out is just amazing. Everywhere this is seen, and validated, from neighbors to the dentist office staff, even stbxw has validated me, and apologized for being so possessive and controlling over child raising.

Another quote from an "art of manliness" website that strikes home:

Some people say that it’s “sad” that men need to learn how to be men from a website. Such criticism seems to be born of an assumption that boys pop out of the womb with an innate sense of everything there is to know about being a man. Of course that’s not the case—we learn how to be a man from the mentors in our lives. And for many men, those men simply weren’t around growing up. Or even if they were–and in what is yet another reason I am optimistic about the future-they still desire to improve themselves, to learn as much as they can and utilize their potential to the utmost. Yes, ideally you should learn manliness from your father and other mentors, and the art of manliness should be passed down from generation to generation. But where there’s a link missing in that chain, we’re happy to stand in the gap–imparting information that you can pass down to your kids, a generation that will hopefully be raised by women and men.

Point is, many of us men don't/didn't even recognize we are/were being emasculated...we have too few examples and mirrors to compare to. We know something was/is wrong, but we cannot identify it, so it sets poorly, nagging in the back of the mind.

The post is rambling... it's Friday, I'm okay with that.

[Lifes Twists]

Since the discussion is feminism and emasculation, I have a topic. I have read articles recently about the effects feminism is having on the class room.What I read seems to indicate that many of the younger women teachers who have been brought up with feminism tend to favor the young girls. They tend to put down what was generally considered typical behavior of young boys as now being bad behavior. This apparently has had an affect on the number of boys following a path towards college and higher achievement.

So, are boys being emasculated at an early age and are girls learning in the classroom to emasculate men?

[TSquared2]

Point is, many of us men don't/didn't even recognize we are/were being emasculated...we have too few examples and mirrors to compare to. We know something was/is wrong, but we cannot identify it, so it sets poorly, nagging in the back of the mind.

So we get frustrated, not being able to identify what that feeling is and what is causing it, and therefore figuring out how to fix it... and of course it's emotional stuff which is not our forte....and so resentment starts creeping in...dang...yet another emotion...yuck!!

And so the cycle begins.

[TSquared2]

When you look at the ratio of female to male teachers, there is a BIG imbalance, and less counter points of view, examples, teaching styles, etc.

We need more men to be teachers, especially in k-6.

[cat04]

My goodness, this has turned into a much more intellectual conversation than I ever anticipated. I like it.

Now I am probably going to drag it back down to real life a bit.

What I was saying earlier was that I was raised in a very traditional family setting. What I mean by that is on my maternal side, my grandmother didn't drive or handle finances until after my grandfather passed. That same grandfather didn't allow his daughters to wear pants until they were 18 and could choose for themselves. His house, his way...

On my paternal side, my grandmother went so far as not shaving her legs because my grandfather didn't like it (that was a cultural thing) and what he said was what happened. My aunt was expected to marry and have babies, while my uncles and dad were expected to have careers and get married and take care of their families.

Neither of these was because women were believed to be subserviant, not as smart as men, incapable or whatever. My paternal grandfather was raised by a woman who was widowed and took her four children back from America to Eastern Europe all on her own (in order to be with family). It simply was the roles that they were expected to fill.

I was raised with those beliefs. My mother was the queen of saying "that is how men are" and "you have to do it because you are the woman". I didn't realize how deep seated they were within me until I was married and much older. Or the negative connotation that came with the messages I received from my mother. Because when I was younger, I believed I was a feminist and I believed that "I am woman hear me roar." So I did resent those messages from my mother, while I respected and admired my grandparents and how they lived and were committed to their families.

My X, was not raised in the same situation. He was raised with an absentee father. So he lacked the role models that T2 was talking about. As time passed, I saw that as a weakness in him. And that was where it started. I knew I was capable and able to do whatever I wanted. So I ended up doing everything. Emasculating him in the process.

After the final bomb, when I finally really started looking at myself (thanks to many people here), I saw what I was doing and eventually, I figured out why...

While changing my behavior didn't help my marriage...

The entire process helped me to figure out exactly what I needed in MY life...

What type of man I would need in my life to be able to have respect and admiration for...

I still have to watch myself on occasion with things that can be not so nice, but BF is pretty quick to point it out to me, instead of saying nothing, thus hopefully stopping the process...

So chivalry, thanks Mach, I actually looked up the definition to make sure we were on the same page...

I think most women would say chivalrous acts are important to them. It makes them feel special (which is important to them). However I know that a man won't do things to make a woman feel special if he doesn't feel appreciated for it.

So I'm in T2's camp. It's Friday. It's snowing. I'm rambling...

So what do women want from men? Deep down what do they want? And how do we actually work against ourselves in trying to get those things?