I've read DB, have done two coaching sessions (w/Chuck) and have been reading the forum for a few weeks and am feeling like I should post. My W left two months ago after arguing for two months about the children. 2nd marriage for each of us and each of us brought two kids with us. Married since Dec. 2012. She said my anger drover her away. She has not responded to any texts, emails or phone calls. Chuck has me "going dark" as LRT, so I haven't sent anything in a week.
I have been working very hard on myself - therapy twice per week, church, renewed commitment to my 12-step program, reaching out to friends for help, etc. I miss my wife so much and am confused by her behavior and refusal to communicate.
I plan to do more DB phone coaching, but would love help from the community about dealing with a WAS who won't communicate or acknowledge my attempts.
Me: 39 W: 46 D: 7.5 S: 5 SD: 16 SS: 12 T: 2 (06/2012) M: 2 (12/2012) Separation 09/2014. No talks of D yet. No communication since 10/3/2014
Some advice what worked for me: -No R talks at all........these are going to have to wait (I always mess this up) -Contact a Lawyer -Send her something written about necessities that are needed for agreement: money, kids, property. If she still doesn't answer back, get something formal (separation agreement.) It won't feel that this make sense at first to do....see below -Make sure she realizes that you are working on the business aspect only, stop contacting her about anything else
My story
My W and I have had almost zero communication since the beginning. I was really unsure why in the beginning and then I started to piece together that there was an OM. I had no clue until she left, but I believe that a lot of the no communication was guilt or fear of letting something slip. Also, I think she's been trying to convince herself I'm horrible and needs to pursue OM with everything (he hasn't left his R) She also cut off all communication with her friends/family (guilt/embarrassment, I guess)
She left and actually used friends as proxies for communicating and transfer of the kids for the first month. Also, wouldn't let me know where she lived. The second month was not much better, she wouldn't answer any of my calls, pretty much dropped the kids off at the house (her friends started to refuse to be proxies) and would leave right away.
She first reached out and communicated two months later when she informed me she bought a house and sent me a draft separation agreement. Luckily, I had found out about OM in the meantime and was holding the cards when she sent me the email. I confronted her on it, she back tracked for a couple days. We talked a lot those days, but then she shut down again. That was a 1.5 months ago. We set up a counselor (mediator) at that time and have been going each week, but that had been ineffective as she has not honored things that we discussed.
Anyway, after much thought and convincing from the board here, I had decided to become 'all business' for the most part. You need to wait until you detach enough or it will eat you up emotionally because it seems like you are doing things to push her away. If you read here, it actually seems to have the opposite effect.
So, dark again for the most part until just this week. She wanted to come to pick up her stuff at the house and said I'm not to be there. I said "no, I will be there." I added some stuff about how our property should be divided and if she didn't want to work through it with me, that this is the list of things that she provides any 'monetary value' to in a seperation. Basically, I would not be accountable for paying her half of what was remaining. We had some heated exchanges about that via email yesterday.
So prior to this, she's been doing pretty much whatever she has wanted with kids, finances, property, etc. Today, I put together a list of things prior to a separation agreement and gave it to the counselor. We had a very difficult, heated discussion about trust and how it affects the kids and my protection of them. A long story about that, but then after getting that out of the way, she was receptive to working and discussing the arrangements in the temporary agreement.
She may go dark again, I don't know, but this is my experience. Try to get the business stuff going as soon as possible, its counter-intuitive but needs to happen at some point anyway. It also starts to have our WAS begin to deal with the reality of their decisions. Its not an 'extended vacation' from you anymore.
Last edited by MCS; 12/03/1412:40 AM.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Thanks, guys. I'm working on GAL. Some days are better/worse than others. I was really in a bad way today until I called a friend and got out of my head.
My WAW and I don't have kids in common. We were close to each other's children, but she broke off all contact with me, my kids and contact between her kids and me. The house is in my name - she left and stopped paying her portion of all bills, so I had to call the bank and begin the short-sale process. She left two months ago and within a week had hired a moving company to come and take all her stuff - said she doesn't want anything else that she didn't take. She cancelled all services that we were both on (car insurance, cell plan, etc) and I have initiated my own accounts. So I don't think we have any business in common right now.
Me: 39 W: 46 D: 7.5 S: 5 SD: 16 SS: 12 T: 2 (06/2012) M: 2 (12/2012) Separation 09/2014. No talks of D yet. No communication since 10/3/2014
So go see a Lawyer ASAP. They will give you a consultation for a reasonable price. Draft up a seperation agreement to protect your remaining stuff.
My W pulled her name off of most of our joint accounts for car insurance, cell phone, Amazon Prime =) etc. also.
You do have a bunch of stuff in common still that you are both liable for. Not sure in your state, but ANYTHING that you paid into during your marriage is both of yours. She's actually entitled to the portion of the equity in the house that was paid into while you were married, I know that stinks. If the value of her 'stuff' she took (assuming it was acquired when you were married) is more valuable than what she left, she owes you money. Also, 401K, stocks, employee retirement, life insurance, cars themselves all would need to be divided. Most people just take what they have themselves, but the difference in values affect the bottom line in a D.
Like I said, my wife went on the offensive and tried to separate as much stuff as possible and 'move on' as quick as she could...she bought a house within 6 weeks of leaving! However, as soon as I started to discuss ALL of the stuff that we needed to work out, she seems to have fallen back to reality some. You're a little different w/o kids, but I can see that it is just starting to hit my W that she can't get 'away' from me and start a new life from scratch in a blink of an eye.
Not to make you feel worse, but a friend at work did process her entire divorce from Afghanistan. She never went back to the house and moved to a different state when she got back.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Thanks, MCS. This may sound silly, but the main reason I haven't seen a lawyer yet is b/c the thought makes me feel like I'm giving in to the separation/divorce. But you make valid points - I'll call someone this week.
Has either one of you formally filed for divorce yet?
Me: 39 W: 46 D: 7.5 S: 5 SD: 16 SS: 12 T: 2 (06/2012) M: 2 (12/2012) Separation 09/2014. No talks of D yet. No communication since 10/3/2014
Yeah, the same thing with the lawyer happened to me to. I was lucky enough to see that my W went first by looking at our bank account statement, so it gave me the nudge I needed. I'll tell you, it was more comforting than I thought it would be. It's like putting tools in the tool box. May not need them now, but sometime you might.
In my state, we have to wait 1 year to file. I'm sure the W would have if she could at first. When she sent me the email about buying the house, she said she decided she wanted a D. She back pedaled a little after that and said it did just say a S, but her BFF made her change it to a D.
I'll tell you, pretty much everything that works here is exactly the opposite of what you think would work. I've been dreading talking about S arrangements with her and prolonging it as much as I could. Well, you can see what that got me, trying to catch up and get back on top of things. It stinks when you try to log into accounts to find them all changed, as you know. I've felt better than I have in weeks today because we actually had a conversation. Think of it as setting the baseline; you need to agree on something to get it established. You're at a disadvantage, so the best thing to do is to baseline with what the current reality is....your separated. At that point, you begin talking about things and that then gives you the opportunity to show her through your actions how you have changed. Without figuring out how to communicate first, it would never happen. The chips are against all of us, but there's a lot of saved M here to show that it can happen.
M:36 W:37 T: 15 M:11 S6 D5 BD: 8/10/14 IDLY: 8/12/14 S: 8/13/14 (she left, I stayed w/ kids) D Mentioned: 10/15/14 Confronted about OM: 10/15/14 EA: ~4/13 PA: ~10/13 She filed: 8/15 (not final)
Thanks, guys. I'm working on GAL. Some days are better/worse than others. I was really in a bad way today until I called a friend and got out of my head.
My WAW and I don't have kids in common. We were close to each other's children, but she broke off all contact with me, my kids and contact between her kids and me. The house is in my name - she left and stopped paying her portion of all bills, so I had to call the bank and begin the short-sale process. She left two months ago and within a week had hired a moving company to come and take all her stuff - said she doesn't want anything else that she didn't take. She cancelled all services that we were both on (car insurance, cell plan, etc) and I have initiated my own accounts. So I don't think we have any business in common right now.
To be clear, were the kids close before and or during the marriage? Do you believe any of them miss the others? Was there a big blow up they all know about? (I mean this is pretty drastic without a big fight...)
What would SHE SAY were the issues? You mentioned your temper/anger. So, what was that like FOR HER?
May I assume you displayed the temper in front of her children? So they were, perhaps in her eyes, traumatized by your temper?
What was it like for YOU? Did you fear you were losing it?
Was your anger also a problem or issue in your first marriage? If so, can you see why your wife would fear that you are destined to always be a guy who "loses it"? IF so, she might think it's hopeless b/c "hey, he won't/can't change".
Also, what is it that you are NOW doing to address these issues? I mean in terms of actions, not words.
RE your 12 step program, did you relapse or just stop going to meetings? How are you doing with that now?
I don't know much about your situation. I can say a few things about why anger in a man can be so disturbing to a woman, however.
Obvoiusly you are physically bigger, and thus your posture and vocal tone will alarm us a lot faster than it would alarm you. But it does alarm and intimidate us and let's face it, most women want their man to be a protector, NOT someone we fear.
When a man frightens us and he's supposed to be our protector, it "betrays" a deep need within us.
I read a series of articles about "mate selection". I've come up with some thoughts for you to consider as they may assist in your situation.
One study asked what traits men/women MOST VALUED in their mates...
Men valued most "attraction" to their wives , AND “peace at home.”
Some anthropologists theorized that “trophy value” and sexual attraction, mostly meant finding a "superior" mate for purposes of bearing superior or healthier children, and the #2nd thing was "peace at home" which I -interpreted to mean, no nagging.
Women most valued in their h's, Fidelity, which is self explanatory I think. AND the thing they MOST valued was Security...
Security --- = Financial, Physical & Emotional. Meaning, women want to feel protected, and a man who is a good provider is also very attractive. That's especially so when there are children.
We need to know that there will be a roof over our baby's head and food on the table, AND that our h's are not gambling away the money, or spending it on OWs. We need to know that our men take care of their bodies in part to keep US safe, we need to know that our man will stop a bad guy (saber tooth tiger) from hurting us, and that helps us feel secure.
Now, on the security level, you have to wonder how safe your wife felt with you.
I assume you would go investigate the "weird scary noises" downstairs at night, but there are other ways for a woman to feel unprotected.
Like not standing up for her with her/your family, or neighbors or colleagues, that is a huge one, or being bad with money, (not that you are, it's just a comment) and or like being unhealthy with too much weight...
men who earn enough to put bread on the table AND a roof over our heads are considered "good providers" and there are women who will stay married, for that reason alone. Same goes for men who are "good fathers" b/c no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her child(ten) with their dad or stepdad. Being a good father figure to step children is a HUGE bonus! (Being a lousy one, sadly, is also HUGE...).
Taking care of your body means you value yourself (& her & the kids) enough so she won't be a widow early....
My "caveman" theory is that at some level we feel, deep down and maybe at a biological level, that if the saber toothed tiger comes, the woman protects the child and backs up her h, but HE fights the tiger if he is there. Helps her feel safe and provided for.
I think women DO want to be provided for and protected - and men Do want to be admired and seen as having a "hot" mate who is attractive and attracted to him....and that is part of why losing your temper is a BIG deal. It's one of the few things that some women feel a "one time slip up" can actually end a marriage.
A lot of my advice depends on what you mean when you say you have "anger issues."
It's pretty vague. If you are getting help for that, then perhaps someone who knows you both, can see that and relay it IF she won't contact you at all.
If you were violent, she may feel there's nothing to be said. Especially if she had that in her prior marriage or childhood.
I hope you'll keep on working this program b/c it CAN REALLY WORK.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Thank you for your reply. The kids were actually all very close with each other. And I was particularly close to my stepson. His biological father had been absent most of his life and when his mom and I married, he asked me if he could call me “Dad” and later said on a number of occasions that I had become his “real dad”. (His father, by the way, reentered the picture at the same time my wife and I got remarried and caused a lot of friction.)
The SD was stand-offish with me, but we were starting to communicate more right before the separation. My wife told me on numerous occasions that I was a great father figure to them. That said, I did indeed lose my temper in front of the family a few times. At the beginning of August, the SS and I had a pretty big blowup. I never laid a hand on any of the kids (or my wife), but I yelled a lot during this blowup. The SS had been really disrespectful towards his mom and me, telling us to “STFU”, etc. I lost my cool on one occasion and told him he was messing up, needed to get himself straight. Unfortunately, I yelled all this and used quite a bit of profanity.
The SS went to his biological father, who stirred up all sorts of trouble. The SS used this wedge to get all sorts of toys and favors (new Play Station, etc.). My wife and I fought about this issue for a few weeks before she left. So I would say for the most part I have been a very good stepfather, but yes, I lost my temper on a number of occasions.
You ask what I have been doing to correct these behaviors in myself. I have been going to IC 2x/week for the past few months; working my 12 steps again with my sponsor; reaching out to more people for accountability in this area; increased my prayer and meditation; have read a few books and taken an online course about anger; have started going back to church and have begun a dialogue with the pastor about my anger.
I wrote my WAW a very heartfelt amends letter about a month ago. I do think I understand how I let her down and injured her. I wish there were a way to communicate with her directly and seek MC with her. She actually came to one session, told me and the counselor she loved me and saw me as her “soulmate”, but she also made it clear that she was angry with me. We had lunch that day and talked a bit. She had already left the house the week before that. The week after that session, she brought the moving van and I haven’t seen her since. That was two months ago.
Me: 39 W: 46 D: 7.5 S: 5 SD: 16 SS: 12 T: 2 (06/2012) M: 2 (12/2012) Separation 09/2014. No talks of D yet. No communication since 10/3/2014
By the way, I appreciate your perspective and you being straightforward with me. I can readily admit that I have made quite a few mistakes in my marriage (and am happy to lay them bare on this forum). I would love to be able to make amends to her in person and that desire is what claws at my heart the most. As I mentioned above, I did mail her a heartfelt letter a few weeks ago, but got no reply. Part of me thinks I need to give it more time; part of me acknowledges that i have no control over her thoughts and actions; and part of me is in too much pain to see things very rationally. But the bottom line is that I feel deep remorse and deep love towards her. The work I have been doing to open up and work on my anger has been changing me. I just don't want it to be too late to save my marriage!
I appreciate you all letting me vent and for your thoughtful replies.
Me: 39 W: 46 D: 7.5 S: 5 SD: 16 SS: 12 T: 2 (06/2012) M: 2 (12/2012) Separation 09/2014. No talks of D yet. No communication since 10/3/2014
