Matt, Cat (nor the rest of us here) are not your problem, we are trying to help. And that help is based on what we all went through. Problem is, while there are parallels, every sitch is different and we don't have access to all the information, just what you have provided, which is through the lens of your emotion. I think the point was that there are two people in an R and that while you didn't break her and no one deserves what you are dealing with, we all had a role in our previous relationship. The sooner you can figure out what to focus on to make Matt a better H and dad, the better off you will be whether it is with her, yourself, or another R.
Ironically, your statements above are healthy to me from the standpoint of understanding how important it is to focus in on your Ds and whatever your W is going to do on her own, you can't control. Have you told her this? What you said in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, especially.
Also, have you talked to an attorney? Sounds like it is time, if you haven't already.
Sorry you are going through this.
CB
Me; 42, W; 43 M; 16 yrs S12, D9
3/13 - "I want to move to XYZ City (four hours away) and it might be without you, not sure" 5/13 - "Not sure I meant that"
Hello again cat. I also do not feel my FIL is solely responsible for this. That is crazy. I believe if he would leave her alone, she would be much less likely to leave as no one else thinks its the right thing to do. He pushed her into opening a secrect bank account. He keeps telling her how disappointed he is that she hasn't already left, berates her on the phone until she feels the need to apologize for wanting to give her marriage a chance. No, he's not solely responsible he is just inableing her to do things that if left alone, she most likely wouldn't do.
As for my W coming out of replay, in the past she has started to withdraw from going out with her friends all the time. She started to become more involved with the kids, even going away together as a family. We even ML and were becoming closer but then her father contacts her, tells her if she EVER wants to see him it has to be right then and when she tells him it's not a good time, he guilts her saying if he isn't important enough to her than forget it. My D begged her not to go to Fla as it overlapped an event they had planned on going to together for a year and my W tells her she must go then or her dad said to forget it. This way she gets to not only show that she cares more about him than her kids but feels guilty about it and blames ME for that guilt! By the time she got back from her trip she was fully back in replay and worse than ever.
As far as detaching from her as it comes to me, I haven't asked her to do or not do anything for many months, as long as it's just her. I really expect zero from her at this point and if she wants to act up I don't let it effect me. But when it comes to my D's, I draw the line. There is no way that she doesn't know it's not ok to send my D 1000 miles away to stay with a man I do not trust and has shown isn't reliable enough to leave our kids with!
As far as projecting about shared sacrifice, we gave up many things to get my D through school, bigger house, nicer cars, cool vacations, etc. We spoke often about how it was worth it to get her a good head start. I don't need to project, I know what she said and did over the last 13 years. She may "feel" differently now but for her to have that big a change in what she thinks is important, shows there is more going on here than a change if heart. Even after the cereamony on Sunday she said she was thinking about all it took to get my D there so she feels it, she just doesn't want to share this with me.
Right now there is so much going on that is the culmination of many years of sacrifice. To see this stranger who has taken over for my wife is hurtful to see. I can be detached and at the same time morn the loss of a person I've been with for 25 years and raised my children with. I don't like the person she has become, nor will I ever think the choices she's been making are anything but valueless and amoral. If I didn't think that the person she was at least at her core was still somewhere in there and that she just wants to stop hurting and is running from those core values to try and stop that pain, I wouldn't care and just start over with someone new. There will come a time when after she gets what she wants, she will find that she is no happier. Of this I am certain. Maybe than she will be able to look where the real problem lies, within, and we can have a better marriage. If that never happens well, that will be sad.
Matt, stand firm on your boundary regarding where your D's live. You have rights. I agree with CB, it may be time to meet with a lawyer.
Regarding FIL pulling W away from you... Think of it this way: Could your parents get you to leave your W? I didn't think so.
Your W is unhappy in her M. FIL is only attempting to capitalize on this fact for his own selfish gain.
What have you done to address her issues with you or the M?
The more you focus on and blame FIL, the farther away you push W. Do you really think forcing her to choose between her Dad and you is going to get you what you want? Think about that for a minute.
W will not listen to your reasoning. You can not "talk" her into doing what you think is best for her. You are hoping to control something that you cannot.
Maybe it's time for something new.
Instead of holding on, and trying to drag W back into the M, (which clearly is not working) what if you let her go? Let her know you hear what she is saying, and that she is free to go.
Then back off and allow her to go on her journey, while you go on yours.
Quote:
There will come a time when after she gets what she wants, she will find that she is no happier. Of this I am certain.
This may very well be, but with the mindset that you know what's best for your W guiding your interactions with her, you will be driving her to prove you wrong.
M: A really long time. Crisis: 5 years. She's still worth it.
Life is never made unbearable by circumstances, but only by lack of meaning and purpose. -Viktor Frankl
Thanks CB. I do understand what you are saying and because I'm new to this forum, many think I am new to dealing with my W's MLC but that isn't the case. I tried for years to understand why my W was doing the things she was doing. Blowing off me and more importantly her kids, to be with her new "friends" from work. Why the things that were so important to her no longer mattered. It started after she finally had come out of a years long major depression and I was trying to figure out if this was part of that or something else. Even she admitted she didn't "feel' right and blamed hormone imbalances and even said more than once "Can women have MLC's? I think I'm having one".
I didn't know how to act as I was so afraid that if I pushed the wrong way, she would go back down the rabbit hole of depression! After B-day I listened to all the "reasons" I was the problem and tried to change those things. Every time I did, she would come up with something new or say "I shouldn't have had to tell you I wanted a D for you to change". I finally realized it wasn't me or her marriage that was the problem. There were times when she would say "I was never depressed before I was married. Maybe if I went back to the way things were before we got married, me in control of every part of my life, I wouldn't be depressed anymore".
I have changed how I deal with my kids and we get along better than ever. My oldest has blossomed once I stopped allowing my W to over-ride me when dealing with her acting up. Last year she barely made it out of her Jr. year. She had a 1.3 GPA and she was acting up, drinking, hanging with the wrong people and my W and I fought about how best to deal with her. It seemed like my W would do just about anything just so she could disagree with what I was saying. I would tell my D that she had to be home by a certain time and my W would jump in and say "Instead of 1:30, why not give her to 1:45". Now what difference does 15 min.'s make? None. She just wanted to be in control, to be the one in charge and it caused my D to think she could play us against each other.
The kicker for me came when, a few weeks after B-day, my D came to us and wanted to stay with her boyfriend 300 miles away for the summer before her Sr. year. At first my W was with me in saying no way. When my D started acting out, yelling and acting like a 4 year old, my W said this to me: she remembers how she spent a summer with her boyfriend after her Sr. year. They had so much sex she was lucky she didn't get pregnant and she wishes she could do that again. Go away and spend a summer like that with someone she wanted (read "not me")"that way" and she felt bad not letting our D do this! I was shocked at first but at that moment I realized that I wasn't going to let her get in the way when dealing with my D's again! I told her that the answer was no, if she didn't like it too bad. I'm the person in charge of this family, it's my last name they have, and if she didn't like it she can leave anytime she wants but there was no way our D was going. Of course for the next couple days my D was upset but after that things calmed down and once she knew that there were boundaries, things have gotten better and better! She is graduating with a 3.7 GPA and hasn't had one "incident" since.
I have worked on me. I have figured out what my part in this was. That was my fear of her going back into depression. I treated her with kid gloves, allowed her to get away with not being a part of this family but keeping all the support of having a family and husband in place. My W doesn't appreciate that which she knows she can have anytime. She knew I would take up the slack for her when she didn't do her part. That there wouldn't be any consequences when she acted badly or blew off her family responsibilities. On B-day she told me she knows I will always care about her. No matter what happened or if she gained 100 lbs. or got sick and I had to care for her, I always would be there for her. It's the thing she loved best about me. Of course, what she doesn't understand is that there is a point where I can no longer care about her or love her anymore. There will come a point when I will no longer be able to feel this way and stay sane! I remember post B-day when she suddenly wanted our D's to do things with her (she had refused to even spend a day at the river tubing with them but would go sometimes 3-4 days a week with her "friends")and they both refused to go with her. She couldn't understand at first why they always said no to her but would do things with me. My youngest finally said to her when she told her she wanted her to go to her co. picnic with her but NOT me "You never made time for us when dad tried to do things together, why do you think I want to be with you and the people you have picked over me for the longest time?". Did that make her think that maybe I wasn't the problem or maybe that her own actions may have affected our marriage more than just mine? No, she just got angry at me.
The reason I feel so strongly about her father's part in this is because every time she starts to come around and there have been several, she talks to or sees him and goes right back to thinking she needs to destroy everything we have worked for for 20 years to be happy. This started with him when his dad died and he wanted to "make up" for all the wrong he did my W. But, only her as a husband and kids would just get in the way. He excluded me and his 8 year old granddaughter from a "dinner party" he had for my W. We were the only people not invited (we were visiting from 1000 miles away at the time). At one point he came out and yelled at my D that she was bothering them with her watching TV and made her cry for the next 30 min.'s! My D at age 14 still remembers what she was watching when he did this. Thus started 7 years of him trying to get my W to leave me and her kids. I know it's hard to believe this without seeing it, how he would say awful things in front of the kids, how he would exclude them when he visited and leave them alone all day and take my W out somewhere. How he told my W in front of them how he was embarrassed to tell his friends about his D as she was "nothing" when she was a stay at home mother caring for 2 little girls. Of course, now that she is in MLC, she is letting it get to her. As she pulls farther away from us, he gives her more and more attention, something she has wanted since the day I met her. I believe the reason she wants my D to stay with him is because she see's how badly they want to be with my parents. How much they love them and see's how much they dislike her father and it bothers her. She is the only one who thinks he's changed from the man he's always been and that is because she is in her fog and wants it to be true so badly.
Yes, this is all about my W. But this is why I am so stressed about this trying to get my D's to stay with this man! As for my sitch with W otherwise, she has stated she isn't in any hurry to get a D now. All she wants is to separate, her get her own place and see if that is what she needs. She is being reasonable about that and if this is what she wants the only problem I have with it is the fact that she won't help pay for private school for my D. She says she hasn't seem a L (but I know she is getting advice from her dad). She wants so badly for this moving apart to be the answer but I can tell she isn't sure. She says that maybe we can have a marriage again but it would have to be something we moved slowly on which is her way of not losing everything if she doesn't suddenly become "joyful" because she is in control of her life. As she has started more and more to do things behind my back like the bank account, sending my D off to "visit", asking my D's how they would like living in another city, etc.(all since going to visit her father) I am more and more thinking her leaving may be the only answer. Until she gets what she thinks she wants, she will keep fighting and finding reasons it's THE answer! I will not lift a finger to "help' her do it, but if she wants it she is free to go for it.
As for me talking to a L, I am now thinking that this may be the time. Things have picked up steam since her dad has become involved. She hadn't seen him for over a year until she went to Fla, now all of a sudden he is coming just a few weeks after her visit? After he told her if she didn't come right when he said, she can forget it? I find out she wants my D to go back home with him and stay the summer, without saying a word to me? What did she think, I would ask "Hey, where's K?" and she would tell me she was in another state and I would be cool with that?So I agree with you that it's time. It's unfortunate but I think necessary.
Sorry about how long this is. But as you said, all you know is what I have shared. I wanted this to be thorough. Thanks CB. I do really appreciate all of you. I know that no one here is my enemy and everyone really just wants to help and only can know as much as I have shared. Thank you all.
I agree with that 100% FY. Since Dec. I have done nothing but give her as much space as possible. I have asked nothing from her nor said anything that could be construed as my not liking what she did. Smile and say "Glad you had fun" or "sounds great".
As for FIL, yes, I know he isn't the cause, he's just moving things along faster and having her do things she has said from B-day neither of us should do. I also do think you are right about the more I let my distaste for him show, the more she wants to "prove me wrong" but dang, I really don't want my kids around that man nor do they want to be! I was fine with giving her my support for visiting him but not him coming to my home or being around my kids! I bought into her being unhappy in her M for a long time. And, yes, I'm sure she is BUT I also know she is unhappy in more than her M. She is depressed, anxious, in pain and told me she has tried many things to make it stop and nothing worked. Maybe if she ends her marriage that will be the answer because, as she said "That's the biggest change I can think of". She has even told me she knows I was as good a husband and father as she could have wanted but she wasn't depressed before she got married so that may be the answer.
Money problems and being able to afford 2 homes also is weighing on me. That is something I am working hard on now and something I can make better. (Started a new business a few months before B-day with W's blessing, knowing it would take a couple years to start making the kind of money I need. Didn't have a clue B-day was coming!)but it still makes this a lot harder than it would be!
Yes, I now am thinking she does need to go or she will never stop thinking it was THE answer. Just how to do it with the least harm to all involved, especially the kids is the hard part. As for addressing the M issues, see above post. I have tried to change everything she said was a problem and have been successful but then she comes up with all new things. Got to a point where all she could say was wrong was she didn't like the way I chewed my food! Thanks, FY!
Ahhh...the tone is provided by the reader, not the writer! I wasn't at all trying to be condescending, it's more about the fact that I busted my butt for so long trying to address the M 'issues' only to have them either change or be told "Too little, too late" which to me says it wasn't an issue at all. Say you have a problem with something important, say your boss at work. Now this is a job you like, pays well, etc. but there is just these issues you have that really make it hard to not just quit. You talk to your boss, he understands how you feel and goes about addressing each issue to the best he can. Now, do you say "Too little, too late". Yes, all the things that bugged you are addressed BUT you shouldn't have had to tell him about them. He should have just either been a better boss or known these were issues that needed to be addressed?
That is where I found myself after months of trying to address my W's M "issues". None of which, by the way, were huge.
Sorry if you thought I was condescending, wasn't my intent but I'm a bit frustrated at the moment having to deal with this sending my D away when I really should be preparing to see my parents for the first time in 3 years. Seems like my W can find a way to bring drama to even the best of times!
I know you are trying to help, cat. I do apologize if I offended in any way.
By the way, some of my best friends are women.....
Ahhh...the tone is provided by the reader, not the writer!
That's not what I was taught in all those writing and literature courses I took in college...I was taught that writers go to great lengths to ensure their tone and meaning are unambiguous as possible, usually. I was taught that the writer has the responsibility to ensure their meaning and tone (or lack thereof)...
I do know from experience that a tone or meaning mistook can lead to disastrous results in business, lost customers/partners and revenue, etc. Same for relationships with friends, spouses, etc.
So you believe that you are not responsible for how your words are taken?
Kinda detracts from any perceived sincerely in any apologies, etc, imo.
In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer. - Albert Camus
Uncertainty is the very condition which impels people to unfold their powers.-Eric Fromm
Now that I feel very badly about being condescending towards cat which I honestly never meant to do, I am going to be much more careful in how I word my posts and try to not let my stress come through so much! Again, sorry about that!
Anyway, yesterday was day one with my parents in town. I spoke to them at their hotel before heading home to have dinner with W and kids. My parents are special people and I'm very lucky to have them in my life. I told them that W is worried that they are "mad" at her for all that has happened from B-day on. They said again that they remember all the stories my W told them about how my FIL treated her, how he hurt her and her brother all their lives. How the divorce had affected her and her family and don't understand how she would want to put her own family through that. They also told me that last year, just before B-day, my FIL came to visit them out of the blue. He lives 900+ miles from them and he just showed up at their house one day! Of course, they were nice (they had no idea what was about to go down)and welcomed him, had dinner together, etc.
My dad said FIL was asking "odd" questions about me, our marriage, the kids. He asked about my oldest D and her problems and my parents told him that she had stayed the summer before with them and how she had acted out but that she settled down after members of my family spoke to her and they know that she really is a good kid she was just having a bad time. Apparently he told them he had heard she was a "bad egg" and he didn't think she would ever have a 'good life" (she was 16 years old and a sophmore in HS and he wants to give up on her!??). My dad said at the time he didn't understand why he came, they hardly know the man and thought it odd the questions he was asking. Like I said, this man has been pushing my W to leave not just me but her kids so he could take her to Europe, sailing to Alaska, etc.I didn't know just how far he would go to get his way!
They also told me that my brothers wife's brother is going through the same type of thing with his W. They had just finished building their 'dream home" and he came home one day and she had changed all the locks and told him this was HER house now and she wanted a divorce! She had been losing weight, hanging out with new people, partying until all hours for a while before this and sounds to me like she's in the middle of her own MLC! Well, he hasn't taken it well and tried to commit suicide a couple weeks ago and is in the hospital and can't understand what happened to his W or his marriage. They have been M for almost 30 years and have 3 kids (all grown)! I swear there is an epidemic of MLC going around!
My parents say they still love my W or at least the W they knew. They haven't seen her since her MLC started and haven't seen the "new" her. Last time they saw her she was talking about how hard it was to keep the kids in private school but how it was worth it. The night went well. My W actually cooked dinner! (she hasn't made a single meal in at least 2 years that didn't come out of a can). She was nice to them, they were nice to her, they hugged her and she hugged them back. They thanked her for dinner and going through all the trouble for them. All in all a nice time was had by all. I do think it pains my W that my kids love my parents so much but don't like being around her dad. Of course, no one is to blame for that except her father and how he chooses to treat the people in his life. I think she so wants them to see him in the new way she is seeing him, even if that is clouded by her MLC fog!
Later, after they left to go back to the hotel, my W told me that she needed to go see her grandmother after work today and asked if that would be alright as she wouldn't be back until later and I would need to make dinner for everyone and she wouldn't be there while they were there and didn't want to be rude. I couldn't believe this was the same person who has been running off for weeks at a time and leaving me alone to take care of the kids, house, dogs, bills, etc. with no care at all! Of course I told her that was fine and do what ever she felt she needed to do, I would be fine. I also thanked her for dinner and for making my parents feel at home and welcome. That didn't go well as she started a bit of a spew about what did I think she would do, be horrible? I just smiled and said no, I just wanted to let her know I appreciated the effort she went to for all of us and she made up the couch (this was the first time in many months she took her sheets and pillows off the couch or as she puts it "her bed")and I went to bed.
Since Dec. I haven't asked my W to do or not do anything. I have given her nothing but space and support and have been very careful to not be at all judgemental or show any unhappiness about anything she has done. I have let her be in total control of her own life while I tried to make a life of my own without expecting anything from her. Still, she thinks I'm somehow the cause of all her unhappiness and pain. I'm starting to think that she has gotten it in her head that I have been telling the people in my life like my parents that she has been awful or that she is a "bad person". I know that back soon after B-day I was emailing my parents a few hours after one of our R talks and she was angry asking me what horrible things I'm saying about her. Of course, I hadn't said anything at all like that and I guess that is what's called "projecting"? She knows on some level that what she is doing isn't "right" so I must be saying bad things about her? Not sure about this.
So, day one went better than I could have expected and I guess we'll see over the next week how things go!
That was exactly what i had typed in a response that my phone chose to eat instead of post...
Matt,
There is nothing you could say that would offend me. I have thick skin.
And it isnt the words...its what is underneath the words. You post to women differently than you do men. You probably talk differently to them as well. It can be something you arent even aware of.
Heres the thing...one of your W's complaints was that you treated her like a child (its in your first thread). And essentially, with your tone, you tried to state your way, shut me up, and be in control of the conversation. Thus treating me like a child or with disrespect. Instead of talking to me like I am an adult with a fully functioning brain (shush Mach ). It may not have been your intention, it just was what it was.
And again I wonder how common it really is for you.
"Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. It means understanding that something is what it is and there's got to be a way through it."--Michael J. Fox
