Still Together & Trying To Work It Out!

[Azagtoth]

Hello,

I am new here. You can see in my signature some key data.

Some basics:

Retired Military - 21.5 years; married 17.5 of those. Lots of deployments. When I was home, I wasn't always "there"! Basic Neglect of emotional needs for wife. I have always been a very closed person emotionally. I am the typical DAM that felt being the "provider was enough. Instead of being there emotionally when she needed or complained, I felt attacked and that what I did wasn't good enough. I closed up and pursued my own interests to escape.

At first, she gave all the typical MLC scripted stuff, so I joined the Hero Spouse board. Recently, her head seems to have cleared, and she is making more sense and being assertive. The re-writing of history is gone. I found this site a couple months ago (about the time of MC/IC) and realized what I actually have is a potential WAW (with some MLT/C tendencies)

We came to a joint agreement to MC/IC, but her expectations are low.

I currently am reading DR; DB is on the way. Wasn't sure which to read so I got them both.

I will transfer this to my own thread and add more details.

Thanks.

-Azagtoth-

[Azagtoth]

Follow up to initial post:

Bd was July 2013 with ILYBNILWY. AIthough I knew we had a major emotional disconnect, also got the following statments which seemed to indicate MLC:

- you deserve better than this.
- don't you want someone to reflect your love?
- I feel like I just woke up / feeling her age.
- its not you its me
- you are a great guy and a wonderful father.
- I still care about you and love you like a friend / brother.

Not one time wad any fault put on me at BD and the years of deployments and feeling neglected never came up untill later. I kept cool at first, reassured her I loved her and told her I would not stop her if she wanted to leave but soon I broke down and did all the wrong things (beg, plead, etc).

I immediately began working on the changes I knew needed to be done. Initially I did this out of panic but soon realized I didnt really like myself and the way I had been for a long time so why should she?
Of course my changes were abrupt but they were sincerely things I was lacking on and I maintained at a steady pace through August and September. I noticed she became curious and was a bit more interested in me but her attitude would fluctuate every coupleof days.

I started to notice A LOT of her texting in the evenings and guarding her phone like a hawk. I finally checked the phone bill on 1 October and saw hundreds of texts between her and a familiar number; it was a male "friend" she had introduced me too about 6 months prior and I had actually hit it off with the guy. Now I was able tosee what was up. I confronted her with having at least an EA. She did not deny it and was immediately remorseful. It wasnt until the following eveing when I dropped the hammer on her hard. I got curious so I went back and checked past phone records and the texts were in the thousands! I couldn't go back all the way but she said it started in April 2013 and I estimated at least 15,000 total at a minimum. She swore it was never a PA and I have never found any evidence that it was. I raged on her hard for probably 3 hours and verbally beat her down. Probably wrong way todo it but made my point it wasnt tolerated. I immediately emplaced a NC boundary permanently on the OM and she has honored it to date.

After the EA bust things just went down hill. She was most likely going through OM withdrawal and I could see the depression all the way through 1st week in November. She finally came out with she doesnt love me and it would never change, she needed her space, and she wished I woild just leave. It was at this time she stopped the history rewrite and brought out the resentment of all the military deployments and neglect. Of course, I had another melt down but two days later I was furious and I finally toldher she had two options: professional help or she needed to leave. I was doing everything I could to work on things but if she wanted out then go. I wasnt leaving and neither was D10. I said I woild even help her pack. She broke down and said no, lets do MC/IC because she didnt want to throw away a 22 year relationship and we hadnt tried everything yet.

About this time I discovered this site and started reading about the WAW. As I interviewed counselors, none of them heard of MWD buti did find one that was extremely pro-marriage, used solution-focused therapy and had experience with both military marriages and typically dealt with the exact issues we were having. We have been in counseling ever since and have had some positives but also some set backs.

I had already been doing GAL. Got involved in church again, joined VFW, intensified one of my hobbies and getting ready to start a new one with D10. I also focus alot on D10; she goes where I go and she keeps me company in order to give wife space.

Thats the basic history. I will follow up with the current situation and perhaps some insight on what is going on with a recent 2 steps forward 3 steps back situation.

I am still reading DR and am implementing some 180's along with regular MC with wife. I am pretty detached from her actions at this point and just observing and being upbwat and pleasant. She is still at home, still in same bed, no talk of D, butbasically we are just friends and roomates right now.

Thanks for reading.

Azagtoth

[Azagtoth]

First off....I am typing on my Galaxy Pad so please forgive any typos....

The most recent situation that baffles me started on 19 December. Now up to this point, since mid October, were amicable at best. MC started early November and I noticed she had warmed up to me a bit....was willing to setnext to me, snuggle, etc.

She went to IC with the therapist on 19 December and I am not sure what happened in session, orifit wasjust coincidence, but that night she literally cranked it up full force. She initiated physical intimacy that evening and from then until Jan 5 2014, it was full blown affection, attentiveness, etc. You woildhave thought wewere newlyweds! It took meby surprise at first but I thought maybe she had a break through in therapy. I just let her take the lead and just went with her flow. When she left for official training on 5Jan, the parting was very emotional and affectionate. By this time i had been getting "I love you" from her a few times. While she was gone for 3 weeks, I got text convo regularly, how she missed us, how she missed me, and she hoped I missedher too.

When she returned on 24 Jan, the switch was back off again with no explanation! I wasnt hurt so much as I was dumbfounded and wondered if I had done anything wrong. She said of course not, she feels closer to me but her feelings hadnt actually changed. When I asked her why the sudden switch, she couldnt explain it. I was so confused I arranged for a session with the therapist yesterday because I needed some answers. Basically she said she was just trying to "go with her instinct" and just let things happen as she felt them but when she got back and saw me, those feelings werent there anymore.....or something like that!

The therapist seems to believe she was acting exactly the way she truly felt but something triggered her to shut down again. Toldmy wife not to try so hard. We both need to go slow and allow the feelings to comeback naturally. The therapist told me later she saw this a positive sign she is really trying to reconnect.

I am unsure at this point. I feel like I was just used as a lab rat for an emotional experiement and got dropped like a hot potato when it didnt work with no explanation & confusion!

Anyone ever seen anything like this or explain it to me or is the therapist dead on with her assessment?


Azagtoth

[Azagtoth]

Had a one-on-one appointment with our therapist today. Since I am the typical DAM, she clarified for me what a woman means when she says she is "smothered" or needs "space". Completely different definition then what I would mean if I said it to her. Live and learn! Also explained to me a little better about why the sudden mood switch from December; she expected this to happen and reenforced this was a long term process.

Been utilizing the 180's and shared some of the DR book with the therapist to make sure we were on line. She agreed with most of them; told me not to use a couple of the 180's at this point as it might be a detriment. She agreed not to share any of the techniques and data with wife, but agrees with the concepts in the book and they fall in line with our therapy so far.

One of the things my wife had told the therapist is I never take her to do things I like to do. Ok then.....

Friday - we had lull time in between dinner and a movie, so I took her to the local VFW where I am a member and hang out for a drink or two. Wasn't sure if she liked it or not but....

Saturday Day - Had plans to run errands with D10 in the morning, Drop D10 off at a friends at 1300, then hit the city to purchase some archery equipment for D10 & me. Wife was going to do some shopping. Told her I had a bunch to do so have fun and see ya later! I started getting the probing texts about noon:
- Did you drop D10 off yet?
- Where you at / What you doing?
- I am kind of hungry (<---was a hint). Told her I would be a while
- Ok, I am going to get something to eat then. Told her fine, I'll get something later, have fun!

Got a text 30 minutes later basically, can you please meet me at (restaurant)? When I got there, she already had my drink and had ordered my appetizer! Never seen that before!

Saturday Night - To my surprise, out of the blue, wife asks if anything was going on at the VFW, or could we go hang out, talk and have a few drinks. Caught me off guard completely. We were there from 1930 - 2400. Really good light conversation, joking around and stuff. Both had a good time and she said she would actually like going there with me occasionally. Note to self!

Sunday - Spent half the day doing regular house chores while she rearranged D10's bedroom. After that I spent about 3 hours Bow shooting with my new bow in back yard. After about 2 hours, curiosity killed the cat, and she came out to watch and ask questions. I answered kindly but quickly and kept about my business. Asked me if I was going to come up and watch (tv show) with her. Sure. Watched TV and went to sleep! ;-)

Got some conversation this morning and interest about what I would be doing today. Nice. The 180's seem to be working; will continue keeping these up. I feel a lot better too and having a blast with my GAL.


Azagtoth

[Azagtoth]

Something that came up in MC last Thursday:

The topic of "in love" feelings came up. Our therapist told my wife she needed to take a good look at the difference between love, or being in love early in a marriage, and what it should look like later in the long term marriage.

I understood what she was saying so I added " If you mean the in-love feelings, those are only temporary during the initial bonding period of infatuation. After this wears off, the love is an act towards each other based on commitment; the love matures." The therapist acknowledged and went further into discussion with my wife.

When I spoke with the therapist today, I asked her straight up if she thought my wife was grasping for a pipe-dream; if she thought she had unrealistic expectations for the "in-love" feeling. The therapist said yes, but that wasn't something for me to "fix"; she would work with my wife on these thoughts during her IC.


Azagtoth

[Wonka]

Hey Toth,

Sounds like you have a good IC who is obviously Gottman based and solution oriented therapist.

Have you read the Five Love Languages book by Gary Chapman yet? It works well along side with Divorce Remedy. I think your W's LL is Quality Time (QT). You're doing good...keep it up!

[AnotherStander]

The therapist seems to believe she was acting exactly the way she truly felt but something triggered her to shut down again. Toldmy wife not to try so hard. We both need to go slow and allow the feelings to comeback naturally. The therapist told me later she saw this a positive sign she is really trying to reconnect.

Anyone ever seen anything like this or explain it to me or is the therapist dead on with her assessment?

Yeah, it's a pretty extreme example but it's not unusual to see this kind of hot/ cold cycling in WAS's. Here's something Accuray wrote about this a while back:

Another thing to expect is that your wife will run "hot and cold" -- she'll be nice to you one minute and the next will shut down hard. This is extremely confusing. Here's what's going on -- your wife will "try on" being nice to you to see how it feels, or if she gets comfortable may slide back into a familiar partner role. At some point she'll catch herself, will worry that you'll get the impression that everything is now "okay" when for her it is not, and will then make sure to demonstrate to you that everything is NOT okay by shutting you out and pushing you away. That's all an inner dialog so to you it just looks completely confusing. If you expect it, you'll enjoy when she warms up and won't worry too much when she goes cold.

It's tempting to get into a mode of catastrophic thinking -- that each time your wife goes cold you worry it will stay like that forever, or "oh boy, this is it, she's gone!" That leads you to panic and overreact. This is a roller coaster, and there will be very dramatic highs and lows. The best thing you can do is try to stay near an emotional baseline. If the WAS bounces between 10 feet up and 10 feet down, the LBS tends to go 25 feet up and 25 feet down in response. Your goal is to go 5 feet up and 5 feet down instead. Take the long term view. Easy to say, hard to do, but if you know what to expect things get easier.

Your therapist sounds like a pretty good one, so follow her lead for now and let her try and work through this stuff with your W.

[Azagtoth]

Hey Toth,

Sounds like you have a good IC who is obviously Gottman based and solution oriented therapist.

Have you read the Five Love Languages book by Gary Chapman yet? It works well along side with Divorce Remedy. I think your W's LL is Quality Time (QT). You're doing good...keep it up!

Wonka,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I do have 5LL and have read it 2-3 times. QT & AoS seems to be her main LL's; these are the two areas I get the most requests equally. I believe GG is also at least a secondary because she loves to give gifts to friends and buys me stuff from time to time just because.


Azagtoth

[Wonka]

Toth,

Here's Sandi's 37 Rules that you would want to follow during your DB journey with W.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes

[Azagtoth]

Another thing to expect is that your wife will run "hot and cold" -- she'll be nice to you one minute and the next will shut down hard. This is extremely confusing. Here's what's going on -- your wife will "try on" being nice to you to see how it feels, or if she gets comfortable may slide back into a familiar partner role. At some point she'll catch herself, will worry that you'll get the impression that everything is now "okay" when for her it is not, and will then make sure to demonstrate to you that everything is NOT okay by shutting you out and pushing you away. That's all an inner dialog so to you it just looks completely confusing. If you expect it, you'll enjoy when she warms up and won't worry too much when she goes cold.

It's tempting to get into a mode of catastrophic thinking -- that each time your wife goes cold you worry it will stay like that forever, or "oh boy, this is it, she's gone!" That leads you to panic and overreact. This is a roller coaster, and there will be very dramatic highs and lows. The best thing you can do is try to stay near an emotional baseline. If the WAS bounces between 10 feet up and 10 feet down, the LBS tends to go 25 feet up and 25 feet down in response. Your goal is to go 5 feet up and 5 feet down instead. Take the long term view. Easy to say, hard to do, but if you know what to expect things get easier.

Your therapist sounds like a pretty good one, so follow her lead for now and let her try and work through this stuff with your W. [/quote]


AnotherStander,

Thanks for the response. The bold lines stood out to me the most. She did actually verbalize this; the first time she shrugged me off I didn't think anything of it. The second time, I was of course confused and asked her if I had done anything wrong. She said of course I hadn't but "everything isn't fixed yet" and "I'm sorry if I gave you mixed signals".

I did half expect this from what I read so it wasn't too painful that I couldn't control my emotions and I let it ride. When my wife starts to have doubts and verbalize them, I just smile and tell her to take her time and I have faith in her and us. This seems to relax her a bit and lighten her up. She even told the therapist that I have been so nice throughout from BD to now that she feels bad about it and just wants her feelings to come back.

I am glad you guys feel I have a good therapist; That was my only concern when we started this, but I did interview about 5 and the lady I went with seems to follow all the solution-focused ideals, is very pro-marriage and agrees that unless there is some kind of ethical issue or abuse that any marriage can be saved. She told me and the wife directly that she can still see there is love and a strong connection between us; its very obvious how we interact. My wife really likes the therapist and looks forward to each session so that's a bonus too!


Azagtoth