Finding nuggets of gold on this Great Big Hill

[2little2late]

PM,
I am a guy teetering on what the hell am I doing holding on to this crazy person for every day. I am not a perfect unconditional loving husband and to be honest with everyone if it were not for my daughter I would have told my wife to take a hike a long time ago!
One thing about people that can't make up there mind. They are stupid. They think that they are delaying by not choosing but reality is by not choosing they are actually making a choice. The choice that suits them individually not the couple. I have no doubt that if my wife had the money to do so she would have been long gone. She doesn't though so she stays in a loveless marriage because it is safe. Safe and free of choices. Well to heck with all of the indifferent spouses in the world. Set parameters and if they are so lost that they can't see how good they have it then screw them!
Move on with your life. You and I will be better off for it. Period.
And yes I am bitter right now.

[LoisB]

We are here for you Pud.

I'm sorry the situation came to this, but I'm proud of you for taking care of yourself. You are a fabulous lady and you deserve so much better. You are standing up for your heart, your son and your self-respect.

I hope he comes to his senses. If not, I have no doubt you will be OK.

Much love,

Heather

[ForeverYoung]

Pm, what's your plan when he tries to talk you into letting him stay? You know, say enough magic words to get you to warm your heart a bit.

[TryingToDo180]

Pud, I think you need to give us the update on here as well as FB. Hope everything is ok this morning and I'm thinking of you

[Pudmuddle]

I need to start a new thread, but want to finish with the events of last night.

bright, busting, job, dragon, heather and ttd thanks for the support and saying I had courage. 2l, I'm sorry you are feeling so bitter but I also completely understand that feeling. It's hard to continue to live with someone in selfish mode.

Fy, I'm not really sure. This is so unfamiliar to me and a place I never even thought I would have to deal with, as I know most of us are that way. He did say he didn't have to move out and he is not going to at this point. I don't know how you get someone to move out when they own the house too.

From last night:

what a crazy night, but I asked for it I guess, lol. After mr spew man came out of my h we had it out. Not good, but probably needed. Then after that I stfu and went upstairs to cool down. Later I came down and said 'so where do we go from here' He mentioned the D stuff again where I said I can't do any of that until we are on a level of friendship and you are not treating me like a friend at all, in my own home. He said he wanted a d and he was done, yet again, and I said well I don't buy that and I don't think you are done yet. We talked about how he stuffs his feelings down and never lets me know when he has been hurt, only until years later do I find out. He would say he had forgiven me and then in the same breath said he could not forgive me. I said if you've forgiven me then why do you bring something up I did years later and say you haven't forgiven me. How am I supposed to read your mind and know what you mean. I said I didn't want to part with him as an angry and bitter person on either of our parts, that the last 30 years with him, I could not just drop him like a hot potato. I said if we can both say we have honestly tried and THEN we are at this same point, then I would be ok, knowing we had both really tried hard to make things work.

I said to him if you are still angry and bitter with me about things I have done then you have not let it go. He kept saying he had let it go. I said you have stuffed it down once again. If you had truly let it go there would not be this anger and bitterness in your heart. I asked him why everything I did was always thrown in my face, as if I was perfect and couldn't possibly make a mistake. Haven't you made mistakes? there was lots more of hashing things out but I left him saying I want you to know I cannot simply give up on people who have made mistakes, and I know that the wonderful happy man I married is in there somewhere. I cannot give up on you like people have in my life, I will not do that. This is not black and white. I will always be your cheerleader, the one who is rooting you on.

I also told him if he wanted to stay here then he needed to treat me with more respect and friendly like. I told him that way he has been behaving has now carried over to our S and our S is seeing me as the bad guy. He asked specifically what things, and I told him. He said Wow, I have been doing that and I'm sorry, I will try to be more aware of that. I have not told him anything bad about you. I told him he was also not setting a good example for our S of how to act in a marriage. He said he knows he is NOT a good example. He did apologize for many things, as did I. He seemed to be calmer by the end of it. So I think at this point, I am exhausted of it all. I will need to sleep on it and see what this all means to me.

-------------------------------------

So as you can see, I am still in a pleading way with him and cannot seem to fully detach yet. He is willing to talk with S and both of them show me more respect in the house. I've never felt so lonely in my life, when my own family has disowned me and thinks I am the bad guy. I truly don't understand all of this. I don't know how to act when people feel everything is happening because of me, and I don't feel I have done anything to deserve this kind of treatment. Yes I am feeling sorry for myself. I need to do a lot of contemplating today and remember to love myself. Choose Joy, today is a new day.

[LoisB]

Wow, Pud. What an emotional 24 hours.

I'm not sure what to say that will help.

I heard myself in the pleading and all the reasons why NOT to end things. At the same time, I heard a woman being very strong and asserting what you believe in and fighting for your marriage.

I'm curious what would happen if you simply said, "OK. If this is what you want." Just curious, I'm not saying that's the route to go. He seems pretty firmly planted where he is and reminds me of such a teenager pushing the buttons to see what you will do next. Lots of challenging of power and control on both sides. Maybe I see that because it's true in my sitch too. We were kids together and seem to fall so easily back into that push and shove match.

Do you really want him to leave? Have you reached the point where you really can't stand living with him anymore? Is it too damaging to you?

I'm reminded of a story in the Al-Anon 12/12. There's this great story about a woman (reminds me a lot of myself) who enabled her alcoholic husband for years and years. One morning, she gets up and has to go pay for yet another bounced check at the local liquor store where her hubby shops. On the way, she has to pass this 6-lane highway. She sees her husband walking and trying to cross this highway--staggering and obviously very drunk.

Her first instinct is to rush across and help him. But, this is what she has always done. Rescued him. So, this time, she sits and watches in horror.

Unbelievably, the husband makes it too safety thanks to the help of a stranger.

The woman goes on to the liquor store and tells the owner what just happened. The owner says, "That guy needs A.A."

The wife replies, "I know!! (I'm paraphrasing) I've been trying for year!"

The owner says, "Maybe you are trying too hard."

I know I've always tried too hard. Wayyyyyyy too hard. I've debated, lectured, pushed, prodded, moralized, used logic, used insanity, used whatever I had in my arsenal to get this guy to "See the Light."

Maybe we are trying too hard.

[LoisB]

I kinda left out the most important part of the story.

She watched the highway in horror until she decided to let God handle it. Then, she just quietly prayed for God to help her husband get to safety.

[Pudmuddle]

Heather, what an awesome story. I did say if he wanted D, then go for it, I don't agree with it but do what you feel you must do.

You said exactly the right thing, so you are very helpful and I appreciate the love you always show.

Things in our M feel different this time, like it will be headed for Dville, but I am ok with that now. I don't want to live with someone who refuses to change or does not want to be happy. Maybe he will change, but maybe I won't be around for him when he does either. The person I saw last night was not him, and yes I needed the reminder that he is still deep in the fog and mlc, even as much as the spew hurt, I really feel like I needed to see it, to see that he is not as normal as he appears most of the time.

Love you Heather, you are the best. Thank you.

[LoisB]

someone who refuses to change or does not want to be happy

This speaks volumes Pud. I think this is the key--and I only say this because I get it. I coulda said that.

Isn't this quote still you leading him across the traffic??? Maybe he doesn't want someone to guide him to happiness, guide him to change...knowlingly, deliberately...

We know these guys. We know how to push and pull and prod them into action. They can sense even the smallest ounce of control on our part. We have 20-30 years of experience getting them to do what WE want them to DO. Maybe, this time, THEY need to figure it out ALONE.

You're right, I'm right... We see them standing in a six-lane highway at rush hour and we see impending disaster. But, maybe they are partly blind to it because they've always had us to show the way.

They toddlers saying, "I can do it myself!"

Let him.

I know the humiliation, the shotgun shells laying around our self-respect...According to the "rules" of Normal, we are being chumps by letting these guys stay married to us and have their girlfriends.

You can't read his mind, you can't predict the future, all you can do is live today to the fullest.

Let him figure his way through this maze of traffic.

I think I just had an epiphany for myself.

At the same time, you've drawn a line in the sand with the GF and living at home--how do you mean what you say and say what you mean? A really skillful substance abuse counselor once told me that's the key to maintaining your dignity when loving an addict.

IDK. Take what you need and leave the rest.

[ForeverYoung]

I don't know how to act when people feel everything is happening because of me, and I don't feel I have done anything to deserve this kind of treatment. Yes I am feeling sorry for myself. I need to do a lot of contemplating today and remember to love myself. Choose Joy, today is a new day.

Hi Pud, You've been through quite a lot recently, I hope you are feeling better today.

The way to act right now is to let H know you hear him. I'm afraid some of your comments are doing the opposite. You can't tell him he's not done, or anything about his feelings or how he handles his them. Those are his.

You're trying to jump to "fixit" mode. Now's not the time for that.

Just let him know you understand how much pain he is in, and that you're there if he needs you. Then back off and give him space. Allow him to come to you when he is ready. Yes, it's going to be tough in the same house, but you can do it.

There's a reason DB says to avoid R talks. He's "done", remember? You trying to convince him otherwise only strengthens his resolve. Let him go.

I think it is good that you told him you expect to be treated respectfully. Don't be afraid to hold him to this, whatever it takes. You deserve nothing less.