I think Sooner (and many others) would agree with me that it's not that we would exactly expect sex for our little gifts and kindnesses, rather it is the act of giving to her, the expression of the tenderness and shear love that we feel in that moment of pure generosity that causes an arousal in us. You see, not all men are horny simpletons. We may be horny but the nature of our sexuality and identity does not make us beastly or cavemanlike. This is a socially induced myth, an ideology that has damaged our reputation beyond repair.
For a man (forgive me, horny women, I can't speak for you), physical intimacy with our wives is simply the most profound expression of our love and connection to them. Apparently, this is often not the case from their perspective, as they appear to believe a selfless nonsexual act, such as as surprise mopping of the floor or a long discussion about her interests, is a more profound expression of love. For many men I think that meeting her needs along these lines would be more natural if she met our sexual needs from the perspective of what we need; and vice versa: if men met their wives needs maybe they would in turn become more sexually involved. It's a chicken-and-the-egg problem: who starts? Unfortunately, so far, my 15 yrs experience tells me otherwise. That is, my generosity and kindness seems to have little effect on a reciprocal act of kindness in the sexual realm, where my (our) greatest needs are. I find little corelation between giving and receiving. Receiving tends to be more closely related to the alignment of the planets and a set of circumstances so complex that Einstein gave up trying to figure out the Theory of Feminine Sexuality. The Theory of Relativity proved much easier to comprehend.
How do we get our low-lib spouses to realize that, aside from real physical needs, our sexual drive is built around the profound intimate expression of our love? Is there anything that is done on a daily basis that is such a powerful expression? You can only die for someone once. I honestly have a really hard time understanding how mopping the floor or other such acts can rate so high.
Are their many guys out there that are withholding sex from their wives because the dishes haven't been done or because the kids were bratty at the dinner table?
Are there women out there that would rather have their husbands ravish them ardorously on the stairs halfway through washing the dishes because their passionate love took over their self-control?
Boy, Aching Man, you write so well, I appreciate your thoughts. I'm curious, have you read The Sex-Starved Marriage? IF you have, you'll know that I wholeheartedly agree with you, that many low-lib spouses don't understand their hi-lib spouse's need for sexual connection. They think it's because sex is just a biological urge...a scratch that needs itching. that's why I wrote this book. I want to explain to those who are less sexually inclined that touching, sexuality is an important way of connecting, being intimate, loving, feeling close. Yes, sometimes, sex is like scratching an itch, but more often than not, it's much, much more than that. Perhaps you can get your wife to read the book too. I have gotten so many letters from people who are reading this book in tandem, at night, in bed. To that, I say, "YES!!!"
So, don't give up. Empathy might be right around the corner. And don't withhold affection. Be kind. One day she might really understand. Michele
THANK YOU. I got your book yesterday and read it almost through without stopping. Only have a few chapters to go. I found it incredibly insightful. I am dumbfounded at your uncanny ability to understand what is really happening in relationships and break it down into pieces that are digestable. I kept catching myself saying out loud, “Yes! That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking!”. Are you sure you didn’t trade your soul for mind-reading ability?
Perhaps more than anything it was a validation, a confirmation of what I have felt and believed. It made me realize that I am not a sexual deviant or bad person because I want to have an active sex life. I actually believe now that I am not really a high libido person, rather a medium high if you base it on straight physical need. I think that if you add the need for intimacy (not just an orgasm) to the formula then the results show me as an extremely high libido. This is the distinction that many of us here on the site have been describing.
This is the first book I’ve read that is real (I’ve read quite a few sex/relationship help books). It strikes at the heart of issues and describes them frankly and honestly. Finally, a woman that publicly admits that sex is a good thing! I’m going to employ a reversal technique (do the opposite of what isn’t working) of doing FEWER gestures of romance and pretend that I don’t really want sex (in other words bite my tongue until it bleeds) while still being civil. I’m still utterly puzzled that the fact that I am trying to improve our relationship is, according to what my wife has told me, the problem.
I don’t know how many days that I planned something special (flowers, dinner, weekend away...whatever) for my wife that never led to a special response. She enjoys the favor but doesn’t necessarily reciprocate. That makes me feel like I’m being used. It’s not that I plan those events (well, not always) with the goal of getting laid in mind but rather doing sweet or romantic things for her benefit gives me a huge turn-on. Even doing non-romantic favors for her (out of genuine kindness) turns me on big time. I can’t get away from this! I’d just like for a accumulation of kindnesses to add up to a wife that loves me with a passion that is similar to the one I still carry for her. It’s crazy, I actually get the lovey-dovey butterflies when I’ m going to see her after being away for a few days on business. She just accepts the loss of passion in a relationship as the natural progression and says I’m a fluke with such a high off-the-charts libido that our marriage can’t be measured against my stick (no pun, well some pun intended). While I know that most relationships deal with sex problems I can’t believe it is natural. Actually it is unnatural. In fact, I think that it is one of the biggest untalked about factors contributing to the demise of the modern family. I’d like to campaign to have Viagra added to the city water like fluoride. What do you think?
Here’s a question for you: If being kind and generous isn’t working then is being a bit more stormy tempered the answer? Is it possible that starting a relationship being nice and kind is actually a mistake? I see the husbands that have started out in the marriage pretty rough; they cause a lot of pain and frustration for their wives for a while, then make a few upgrades and the wife is ecstatic that she’s getting positive changes in the relationship. Could it be that starting rough gives the woman (or a low libido guy) something to smooth out? Perhaps we nice guys made a mistake by starting with the bar way too high for us to keep up with, therefore the expectations for change from the low libber’s viewpoint are farther out of reach.
Let me see if I can effectively illustrate what I’m trying to get at: Let’s say there’s this new husband and he’s a bit of a lazy bastard, never even remember’s their anniversary or her birthday, calls her “fat bitch” and has gained a big old whopping beer gut in the couple years that they’ve been married. His wife is aching for him to change his ways. She approaches him with her issues. He acts like a lightbulb has gone off and starts working out, brings her flowers occasionally, and gives her a romantic dinner on her birthday. The bar for measuring the difference between his previous character and the change was very low. This is why I think Sooner and FredD are having a tough time like me. We started out too “sensitive guy” now there’s not enough room to go up. Frustration is using up our “nice guy” abilities and we’re getting edgy. Bringing her flowers has less of an impact than it does for Ol’ Fat Bastard. When he brings flowers she thinks there’s been a miracle and is happier than hell. Can this be right? I know a lot of us are still bewildered and struggling to stay afloat.
I appreciate your compliments and encouragement. I will continue to hang on, although, to be honest with you, there are plenty of days when I believe that the sailing would be smoother with a woman that doesn’t have her expectations so painfully high that I can’t even see them.
Quoting AchingMan: Are there women out there that would rather have their husbands ravish them ardorously on the stairs halfway through washing the dishes because their passionate love took over their self-control?
aye, AchingMan, aye
I was searching for my name which is often shortened to "char". I usually get lots of results with the word "character" in them, and this post's title was irresistable.
My husband just bought "The Sex Starved Marriage", and just like DB and DR, every page I flip to has something that makes me nod my head.
I am/was a WAW. H and I separated for only one week, maybe two, and we've decided to work things out as best we can. We've been struggling, though it seems all the outward overatures have passed and now we're left with the same "incommunicado" situation we had before D-Day.
Talking about our M makes us fight for some reason so we've stopped doing that.
Now we're left with the accepting and forgiving of what the other's done and we're left with the same shoddy skills we had before. It is most definitely time to try something different. So... we're/I'm (???) working on my libido (???). The funny thing is that I believe myself to be an incredibly sexual creature, and your statement (quoted above) made me say YES!!! We Are Here!!! To me, this is the expression of love I am looking for. Let me say no, let me look mad and struggle against H... and let H assure me with looks and touches that the dishes most certainly CAN wait.
Obviously, the problem is... is that I say no, and look mad, and H gets his feelings hurt, and has gotten his feelings hurt so, so, so many times that when we go to bed, he says things like "I'm going to bed. See ya." So, I lie there, lightly shell shocked and tremendously confused. I've been working on increasing my appetite, reading wonderful sexy poems (see Passionate Hearts by Wendy Maltz)... and coping with my other "issues", and then am faced with this mountain I most certainly helped build.
And I know, one word... maybe three or four... and he'd have changed his tune... but it's like... well... it's no stairway anyway....
Have you ever "ravaged" your wife, out of the blue, with no "ceremony", no "ritual" involved?
Just let passion take over, with no thought of "how it's supposed to be"?
If so, how was it?
If not, then WHY not?!
Anxiously awaiting your answer!!
Well, Sir, that has not worked for many years. A few times I have tried to pull her passionately against me out of the blue, kissing and touching, beginning what I would consider "to ravish". It was ugly; I didn't get very far. She considered it closer to attempted rape than a passionate embrace of a loving husband. On another occasion many years ago I actually got kicked off of her in the middle of intercourse even though we had started with mutual interest. She simply wasn't enjoying it and got pissed. I never understood that one and it hurt like hell for years (not physically). No, my moderate friend, that is not even a remote possibility. That is why I asked if any women would rather be ravished than have the dishes washed. My wife would rather have me was the dishes than have a passionate soul-melding experience. Strange, though, washing the dishes doesn't get me laid any more than not washing the dishes. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I suspect, from the messages I've read, that most of the women on this site would melt in passionate ecstacies if I did half of the things I do or try to do with my wife.
The conclusion I'm coming to is that I need to figure out a way to lower my libido and need for intimacy (definitely my love language). Maybe I'll take up smoking, I've heard that helps.
I just remembered something from a very long time ago that relates to all this.
I was a little boy and had a crush on the pretty girl next door (you fellows, know what I'm talking about). We actually became good friends and spent a lot of time together. One day in her clubhouse we began playing a bit of "doctor" (and you thought they were just for tea parties!). She said she'd show me hers if I showed her mine. I agreed, with the stipulation that she went first. She was fine with that and I got my first real look at one of the treasures of life. When it was my turn I refused even though I was dying to show her. I had been expecting her to insist. She didn't. She just shrugged her shoulders and we went on to play tea party instead of doctor.
Maybe when we play hard-to-get we don't get got at all.
In that thread, Michele gave me the following suggestion:
Quoting Michele: Thanks all for sharing once again.
Andy, you write so beautifully about your feelings of loss and about what sexual contact means to you. I couldn't help but wonder if you ever told your wife, or better yet, wrote her your thoughts. Going the rest of your life without sex is a very long time.
Michele
I took her advice, AM. My W’s response was, “Well, I haven’t felt that way for a long time.”
I’m not saying Michele’s advice was bad. It just didn’t work for me. It may work for you, but before you say anything, carefully consider this:
If you try to explain your feelings, it can come across as pressure. You have read The Sex Starved Marriage . You’re very enthusiastic about how much it validates your feelings. Don’t get me wrong. It’s good that you don’t think you’re some kind of pervert, but I would advise you to reread the parts about how your W feels about all of this.
If she’s feeling inadequate, guilty, whatever, then expressing the immense sense of bonding can make her feel even worse, and her reaction will be similar to that of my W.
You asked why a “surprise mopping of the floor” seems to be a more loving expression than making love. The answer, quite simply, is that a “surprise mopping of the floor” is an acknowledgement that she does mundane things without getting appreciation for them. By doing some of “her” jobs, you’re showing her that you aren’t taking her for granted.
Quoting AchingMan: She just shrugged her shoulders and we went on to play tea party instead of doctor.
Maybe when we play hard-to-get we don't get got at all.
Hey AM, Yeah, I don't think it works that way for women.
My H read my reply above and said "I didn't know you felt that way!"
I read romance novels sometimes. Novels that could be considered "soft porn". The women (girls actually) are always virgins and the men are always confident with their desire and often wind up being "teachers". The men also treasure and respect the virginity they're so willed to take, apologizing for the pain they're about to cause yet assuring the ladies that they will enjoy it next time.
If it's all "fiction", then why do so many women read these stories? I mean it's a multi-bazillion-dollar industry!
My thinking is that, well for me anyway, sex is a gift. It's a language of love (no, I haven't read the book yet). I definitely don't want to be thanked for it. I'd rather be thanked for being a good mom or for doing the laundry. But... to be told the truth, that my loving makes my H feel manly, and maybe not in those words, but in gestures of masculinity....
Not sure where I'm going with this, nor am I sure if I have any advice, but...
There's just something to being appreciated for that particular gift I sometimes give, rather than feeling I'm fufilling some wifely duty as an object, a vessel, a... means by which my H can feel good about himself.
Anyway, about your W calling your advances "rape"... there has to be an understanding between you two before that kind of ravishing can take place. Sure, your W doesn't care right now about your needs, she's too wrapped up in hers. I think the priciples of DB'ing might work very well here... start with goals for you, try to find out what your W's goals are and go from there.
Hey AM, Yeah, I don't think it works that way for women.