So Drained

[Accuray]

I know that isn't attractive to her at all but at the same time I had to say something.

No you didn't have to say something! You need to stop making excuses for pouring out your feelings and pursuing her -- it's NOT GOING TO WORK. It will only push her farther away and leave you feeling more rejected. You may get some temporary attention out of guilt, but it's going to push the resentment meter higher.

interpreting everything I'm saying to be that I think she's this horrible person - her words.

This is manipulation. She's turning the situation back on you. When you complain, she has three possible responses:
(1) engage you to understand your complaint and work with you to resolve it
(2) ignore your complaint
(3) turn it back on you and condemn you for complaining, often expressed as a failure to accept her as she is, a failure to love unconditionally, or she will exaggerate your complaint such that you are making her out to be a monster, and then hold that against you.

The WAS script is usually (2) and then if you keep pursuing the complaint it goes to (3).

She doesn't need to be convinced that you want to be with her, and she doesn't need you to explain why. She's just trying to manipulate you so you'll stop complaining, or asking anything of her, because she doesn't want to feel responsible for you or your feelings. That is all that's going on. Imagine she's trying to walk away and you're holding onto the back of her shirt, that's the effect of your complaint right now, it's just annoying her and will not change her course.

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Sometimes we do things to make our spouses unhappy.

Sometimes our spouses are unhappy independent of us, and make us the lightning rod for their unhappiness just because we are there.

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In the first scenario, 180 works. In the second scenario, her complaints are a red herring and working hard to address them is the equivalent of pissing in the wind. The only thing that's going to help in that second scenario is removing yourself from being her lightning rod so that she can see that she's still unhappy without you, and maybe you weren't the source of her unhappiness after all.

She will NEVER come to that realization with you pursuing her -- NEVER.

[TryingToDo180]

Accuray I like those scenarios that you painted Even though you are helping hurt, it applies to a lot of us on here as well. My H needs to realise that I'm not the cause of his unhappiness Hurt, what Accuray is saying makes sense, though he hits you with a 2x4 whereas I hit you with a foam version of a 2x4, lol

[Accuray]

Yep, sometimes it's you and sometimes it ain't. The other thing I've learned is that all cheating requires is opportunity -- that's it. Dissatisfaction makes it more likely, but only opportunity is required.

Every marriage has challenges, and everyone has flaws. Dealing with and negotiating these shortcomings IS marriage.

One challenge for the LBS is that they often feel horribly guilty about their very human shortcomings, and then convince themselves that if they 180 them all it will fix everything.

If your spouse cheated only based on opportunity, or your spouse is simply unhappy because of things going on in their own head, then you can run yourself ragged and get increasingly frustrated with them for not responding to all your effort.

Unfortunately, your effort doesn't matter to them at all because it was never about you -- it's about them.

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This does NOT apply to every case, or even to most of them. Most of us who find ourselves here truly did engage in non-marriage friendly behaviors that we really DO have to remedy. Like anything however, it's a grey area, and often our WAS' problems have more to do with them than with us.

[Hurt84]

Okay, I have some questions that given where we stand might be silly or a continuation of a lot of what I described previously on my part but I need to figure out how to handle these situations, especially if I'm going to stop pursuing and moving forward some way:

-- How do I approach things with friends or people that ask about her behavior? Despite her apparent need to blow me and some of our friends off to go out drinking with whoever, she still is close with our friends and they are concerned about her and ask me about it. So far, depending on who it is, I've either said that I don't understand it or that they should ask her directly about it but I haven't gotten into too much detail beyond that.
-- Our anniversary is coming up the middle of next month. Part of me feels like trying to get us to go somewhere for the weekend, away from the distractions back home. That's not to say they won't be there still when we get back but potentially make it an opportunity for us to re-focus or perhaps it would end up being an eye-opener for me.
-- Same issue the following month, her 30th birthday is coming up. Her mother and I had been talking about trying to put something together for her.
-- If we do have plans to do something and for some reason she breaks those plans, what would be the best approach? I'm tired of putting her on the defensive because that is then her flipping the behavior back on me.
-- To date, she's resisted going to marriage counseling or talking to someone with me about our situation. I know there is a school of thought that if she's so detached at this point, MC might not be the best place for us right now. Is there another way to spin it to try and get her to go? At this stage, is it beneficial at all?

[TryingToDo180]

I think what you're doing with people who ask you is absolutely spot on! I would say the same Not too much detail, just simply I dunno and ask her will do just fine!
I dunno what to say about her anniversary coming up. My H didn't want to know and wouldn't commit to anything. He moved out a week before our anniversary. As for her birthday, I would carry on making plans with her mum, especially if her mum doesn't know what's going on.
If she doesn't want to go to MC, you can put a rocket up her bottom and she still won't go! My H was exactly the same, he said he didn't like talking to strangers about his problems.
Hopefully some of the vets on here will have some better advice than I can give you

[hotwheelsaust]

Agree with ttd180 about the friend talk. The anniversary, I would say that since you are still going out for dinner etc, then I would plan a nice dinner together only. I don't think a night away is the best thing at this stage. Others may disagree. But in saying that, you need to see how things go over the next few weeks. What about simply asking her opinion on what she would like to do?
I think you could continue to still make plans with her mum. It is still her birthday and you still love her, so why not? Just don't expect anything in return for doing it.

[adinva]

Marriage counseling is detrimental when one of you does not want to fix the marriage. I have not seen anyone who was "gotten" to go to marriage counseling and they saw the light and changed their ways. It doesn't work that way. She has to really want to be there to work hard and do what it takes to fix the marriage with you. Unless you're both at that point, it does either nothing or more harm than good. Counseling for YOU, by yourself, is not a bad idea at all.

These are my opinions, based on my experience "getting" my husband to try marriage counseling, and two years of reading sitches here almost every day. You've got to follow the rules and stop pursuing her, stop making excuses for why you just can't help yourself from pushing her away with your pursuing behavior, and do all your 180s and repair all your shortcomings - simply because it's an opportunity to be a better person - not because it will bring her back. If you do all that and get lucky, she may recommit to the marriage and decide to work on it with you, and she may not. There is actually nothing you can do to make her do that. There is plenty you can do to ensure she doesn't.

[Accuray]

Agree with Adinva 100%, MC isn't going to help you unless your W is motivated to make your marriage better.

For your anniversary, I would ask her how she would like to celebrate it and go with that. I definitely wouldn't try to surprise her with a weekend away or anything. For her birthday, I would keep it low key, no grand gestures on your part.

[Hurt84]

Thanks everyone again for the replies.

I'm going to proceed with setting something up for her birthday with her mom, we'll see where it goes. If for some reason things really go south then I could always cancel the plans if it came down to it.

With the anniversary I'm going to see how the next week or two go before thinking about that again. I feel if I were to propose something as simple as dinner for it at this point I wouldn't be shocked for her to respond with "Why are we celebrating?" I'd rather get on a little better ground before broaching that topic.

Just a follow up question, if somehow we do have plans set and she breaks them, what would an appropriate response be on my part? I don't want to come off as weak or a nag anymore but I also don't want to keep taking it and there be no response.

In the meantime, I need to focus on calming down and doing my own thing if she's off doing hers, and even when she isn't. Sitting around stewing or pouting about it gets me no where except coming off as weak when I can't control it. A simple question such as "Do you need a ride?" turns into mess of an argument and I hate feeling like this.

[AnotherStander]

-- How do I approach things with friends or people that ask about her behavior? Despite her apparent need to blow me and some of our friends off to go out drinking with whoever, she still is close with our friends and they are concerned about her and ask me about it. So far, depending on who it is, I've either said that I don't understand it or that they should ask her directly about it but I haven't gotten into too much detail beyond that.

I assume they know your sitch, and if so then it's fine to tell them that you have no insight and you're giving her time and space to sort things through herself, and that you recommend they do the same. Discourage them from trying to intervene, when friends and family intervene the WAS ALWAYS blames the LBS for "ganging everyone up" against them. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter, it's all about perception.

-- Our anniversary is coming up the middle of next month. Part of me feels like trying to get us to go somewhere for the weekend, away from the distractions back home.

Sounds like pursuit/ pressure to me. My W and I had an anniversary a few months after BD. I told her it didn't seem appropriate to "celebrate" but that I thought we should do something just to acknowledge the date, so we agreed to go out to dinner. Keep it low key/ informal. No gifts.

That's not to say they won't be there still when we get back but potentially make it an opportunity for us to re-focus

You've got to quit looking at everything as an opportunity to reconcile. Your W isn't there right now, and the more you push the farther away she'll move.

I'm tired of putting her on the defensive because that is then her flipping the behavior back on me.

Cheeseless tunnel. Don't set up camps on front of cheeseless tunnels. As soon as you identify it's cheeseless, move on.

To date, she's resisted going to marriage counseling or talking to someone with me about our situation.

Of course she has, she's a WAS. That's what YOU want, not HER. You need to quit pushing your agenda on her. Back off, give her time and space.

I know there is a school of thought that if she's so detached at this point, MC might not be the best place for us right now. Is there another way to spin it to try and get her to go? At this stage, is it beneficial at all?

MC NEVER works with a WAS that's one or both feet out the door. They just use it to justify why they're leaving, and so they can check it off their list of "things I tried that still showed our M is dead".