Thanks guys, it is a relief to have a safe forum to discuss this stuff in. The timeline is, stuff like this has been a normal part of our existence, not every day, but often, since the kids were pretty small, like schoolage. Before they were schoolage we had these very same disagreements about spanking and yelling. The boys started wrestling in first grade and there's a lot of roughhousing like that which seems to have started around that point too, not when they were little babies. Wrestlers cannot be squeamish about their crotches and personal space; an opponent would take advantage. Any of you guys wrestle? My H did from early childhood through college, and it earned him an Ivy League education and was a large part of his identity as a man and as a dad, until the kids moved on to other sports and interests.
The things I took issue with I said something and we would have disagreements, and the disagreements turned to friction, resentment, a feeling like the other wasn't listening, a feeling like our opinion didn't matter, and so on and so on until we get here. My H completely withdrew from me and then left me. And one of, say, the top three problems in our relationship was this stuff. I didn't respect his ideas and he didn't respect mine, and we didn't agree about the kids. I might have mentioned before, that even being left, I felt some relief because this problem that I felt he was somewhat abusive was going to go away since we couldn't work it out.
You may not be regular readers of mine, but my sensitivities over how he speaks to our S12 have also been called abusive and been highly offensive to some readers on this board.
What do you do when things seem sometimes bad but not always bad, when you have some disagreements but not only? At what point do you decide what you're looking at is clearly abusive and you need to pack up the kids and leave, get a divorce when all your life you've believed marriage is forever and communication enables smart people to work out their differences? Well, I have had that decision made for me.
Honestly, when we talked about our differences in marriage counseling, the four or so times H showed up, the issues were not about him being abusive they were about ME being abusive. Not listening, not being respectful, acting lazy and forgetful, being passive aggressive. I've read here how emasculating it is to be denied sex by your wife, and I've been at fault of that because I could not stand the way he approached me - if I could throw up at will there are some times I would have done so, and it was just harmless fun, I was soooooo overreacting it seems. I was a bad wife, it seems. I took our marriage for granted, didn't speak his love language, didn't try hard enough. So in all that, there are these little pieces of the puzzle that when examined up close look like he was verbally and possibly physically abusive or at the very least inappropriate.
I can't redo the past, and it's all being changed in the present by the divorce, so all that I can do is work on this stuff going forward, with my IC's counsel, to build up my boys and try to undo what's been done.
A thought that occurs to me is that my H was probably treated by his dad or others exactly the way he's treating the boys, so he thinks it is completely normal and that it's me that is overreacting. And my family was so restrictive that we weren't allowed to burp or fart or actually even use those words, so there's a lot that I've just figured must have been normal for other types of families.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Oh yeah, "bro" showers aren't done with your actual brother, that would be "weird." Bro showers are the buddies, who are all joking like puppies cool and confident guys from the lacrosse, baseball, and hockey teams, who will pile 2 3 or 4 into a shower in their gym shorts and spend a ridiculous amount of time in there. If challenged they would say "what!? we're not doing anything. We're just taking showers. We're not gay or anything." Based on available evidence these particular bro showers are for smoking pot, and I've told all of S15 best friends' moms that I'm not allowing this or other suspicious behavior at my house. (cologne fights, baths with scented candles, etc.) Oh, the joys of parenting a teenager, you learn new things every day.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
Thanks for clarification on bro-showers. I've never heard of such a thing. If my comments were out of bounds or came across as over-reacting, I'm sorry. Abuse and its varying degrees is a very touchy subject for me as it's at the heart of my marital breakdown. My heart breaks for the men who grow up having experienced things that didn't feel right only to be told boys can't be abused, or that abuse takes one form and one form only. What you say about your H doing what was done to him rings bright, but your instinct around it does not make you a prude and I don't believe it is a result of how you were raised. I didn't grow up in a strict household but am with you on this one. I fart and burp and swear and have tattoos. Sounds worse than it is! :-)
Your situation breaks my heart Ad. I've followed along since I joined and have wished you strength along the way. My husband was always kind (although he hid his past from me) until he stepped out, and I feel so much injustice for people like yourself who have had a different experience. I couldn't even abide his infidelity for one second, but we have no kids and I have a good job so the stakes are different.
Much strength Ad.
me 45 H 46 T 5 M 2.5 BD Sept 6 2011 OW Sept 8 2011 Threw him out Sept 8 2011
Thanks GWN. It is a struggle for me because I don't want to look at ugly things about me. I've never been a mama-bear kind of mom, and I don't always see threats for what they are, and when I think I do I back down with just a little justification or rationalization. I don't know where the correct level of response is. It's part of what I'm learning in this whole process, it's a feeling, and feelings are something I've buried, hidden, misrepresented, exaggerated or denied my whole life. It's a slippery thing to grasp a feeling, identify it and measure it and know what response is called for, how big or how small.
The idea that I allowed something bad to happen to my kids, or that I didn't see their dad as doing harm, is pretty hard to face, and all I want to say is, can you understand why? Maybe it's not that big of a deal? Maybe I responded right all along but not with enough conviction? Maybe I'm fixing things now? I don't like to be too hard on myself. But this was a very hard conversation for me in IC and I felt miserable to think I was so weak. I still kind of keeping coming back to, maybe we're all just overreacting.
So I asked my sister and she said it always bothered her too and she polled her male friends and found none of them who thought this was normal guy behavior. My sister has always been a LOT more delicate and sensitive than me or most anyone, so it's natural that she would be concerned, but I had no idea she was finding other guys' support that this was inappropriate way back. I don't know how much I would have listened to her, and I know I was already saying about as much as I could say to H, making a nag out of myself, so it probably doesn't make a difference now. I just didn't know she did that.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
My H taught me to let a fart rip. Better out than in. He said my stomach would explode if I didn't. I couldn't believe people could be so comfortable with their bodies as him.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
AD, the things you speak about... horse play... initiations... hazing... what ever one calls it, is very common in athletic sports such as football, hockey, curling... wait... no, not curling... lol...
Because it's always been done, or done within specific groups, whatever... the group generally determines what is "right" and what is "wrong" as far as display and activities such as those.
That you don't like it is the important part. Does that make you a prude? Should you condone it? Or turn a blind eye? Those are tough choices.
Frat houses get shut down and sports teams investigated over these types of allegations made public.
My best guess is not that you think there is anything that is dangerous or harmful to your sons. Rather, it makes you uncomfortable.
I agree that type of stuff is just... bizarre and childish... In some instances, it could be a swat on the rump by team mates of a football team... or towel (or other method of) snaps to the groins... or it could be communal showering...
Is it intended to be a power play? An alpha, dominance thing? Abusing, humiliating, shaming them into submission?
Of course, them understanding that they do not have to accept nor participate in that type of behaviour is important. They may not say it openly in front of their friends or their dad, but they might say it to you, in private, and they should know they do not have to participate in that behaviour.
I completely understand why you let it go -- I don't think anyone holds that against you, as you point out its hard to have a gauge for normal or acceptable for borderline behavior you're not familiar with. Here on this big forum it seems unanimous that H's behavior is abusive, not normal, and not acceptable, and that your IC was wrong to tell you to tolerate being held down. We are reinforcing your beliefs here, not chastising you for prior shortcomings. I do think you should continue to defend the boys in this regard by setting boundaries with H and teaching the boys to do the same. This forum has taught me a lot that my wife's behavior that I regarded as normal was in fact not the norm at all. Sometimes we're blinded by having such a small sample set.
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
I do understand where you're coming from, as much as a person without kids can of course, and one who hasn't walked your road.
You know what struck me about your last post (or second last...not the fart one ;-))? That you said it's hard to look at yourself, that you've had trouble with feelings your whole life, that you've buried, hidden, denied them. My H said the same things to me, but specifically connected to what he'd been through. It changes people deep in their core. Trust in one's self, one's judgement falters. Feelings become too much to bear so we don't. I don't know that your difficulties with feelings and questioning of your judgement are rooted in your trauma, but it might be worth exploring. I see so much in what you write that your power as been taken away and that makes me sad.
An in terms of whether or not your H intends to dominate, abuse, humiliate, shame...it's not that simple. He might not mean to, he might approach it as just horsing around, but that might also very well not be the effect on the recipient of his behavior.
Oh, and the notion that denying sex to a husband is emasculating (from your first post on this page)? Wives don't "owe" their husbands sex. Rather, it's one of the benefits of an intimate relationship. It certainly can be coerced or purchased, but that's not what we're talking about. And there are two people in a relationship, not just the husband. I don't know what you mean specifically about your H's approach and your not liking it, but you're a human being too and he could have talked about and responded to your needs and desires.
You're a good person, Ad, and don't ever forget that.
me 45 H 46 T 5 M 2.5 BD Sept 6 2011 OW Sept 8 2011 Threw him out Sept 8 2011
One other thought -- this forum espouses working to save your marriage except in cases of abuse. If you're married to an abuser, appealed to make it stop and were disregarded, then sometimes it's better for you and the kids to be away from an abuser until they decide to get their act together. Maybe you think this is harsh because I'm sure there was lots of good about your H and there was a lot to love, but if a top 3 cause of your marital problems were you speaking out against abuse, then no harm no foul on your part right?
Married 18, Together 20, Now Divorced M: 48, W: 50, D: 18, S: 16, D: 12 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 7/13/11 Start Reconcile: 8/15/11 Bomb Dropped (EA, D): 5/1/2014 (Divorced) In a New Relationship: 3/2015
Well, I'm still not convinced. I really think if I stood up in public and called my H abusive he would be outraged and appalled. How many of us were belittled by our Hs or Ws and how many of us would call that abusive and tell you to get out? When do you know that you've worked hard enough at fixing things and you need to get out?
Also, I haven't felt powerless in a really long time, not since my teenage rebellion. I buried my feelings because they hurt me, and I was empowered. I didn't have to care and I could choose my route. I had pretty good relationships and I ended them for pretty good reasons and H seemed like a great husband for a long time and a pretty good husband all the rest of the time right up until BD. When the neighborhood ladies had their b!tch sessions about their husbands I couldn't participate...I thought my H was pretty good, better than me at splinters and bandaids, did all the laundry, handy and smart. Nothing is as black and white as it sometimes seems.
And I've got to say he never held me down, not even close. He just thought it was funny to tickle me to see me overreact. I won't describe some of his other undesirable mating rituals because I feel like I've maligned him enough for one day, but think goofy frat boy not rapist and you'll be more on target.
I believe there are families that stay together where the children are actually beaten. I got my share of a belt and my parents were married 60 years and counting. Some fathers call their kids stupid don't think they're joking. The point where people cut and run seems to me to call for broken bones and malicious intent. The rest of us work through our damage.
I'm sure if my H didn't bail on me I would have continued fighting him on the things I objected to, and I might have learned better techniques if I had ever gotten around to seeking counseling, and we might have made it through ok. I think my parents did a lot better with each other once they got all their kids up and out. I don't agree that divorce is the best choice in my sitch but staying without changing would have been a worse choice.
I just sat with him through another freezing lax game. He insisted on getting a blanket for us to sit on, and the rest of the time he said basically nothing. No thanks, to my offer to get him a hot drink. Fine, to my question of how his roomie is. His mom's interested in coming to the game Thursday and she'll stay overnight, so I asked him if he wanted to invite her to stay with him - he said no she can stay at the house. He did mention his roomie's son is visiting for spring break and they went to NYC. I asked if he was a sophomore or junior and was he looking at colleges yet, but H didn't know. That's about it.
I try not to push my information on him, because I think it's pursuing, so I wait for him to ask or express an interest which he doesn't. So I didn't mention the party or the beer or the ER or Easter or the chemo or the business trips I have coming up or anything else that I was thinking of saying to him. We just sat and watched the game.
Don't be sad for me, I'm no victim. I really wasn't that traumatized and I believed I handled it pretty effectively without having to tell anyone. Now that I know I didn't handle it all that effectively it's on my to-do list. I was able to grow up emotionally, mostly from having had kids, and I believe I've demonstrated quite a lot of strength and resilience. I was not molested more than once and not nearly to the degree that some people, or if you believe the statistics MOST people are. I was just a little kid so I didn't understand it, and my little-kid ideas about it never grew up, but I felt like I accommodated my handicap really well.
I do think someone who hasn't healed from something should be allowed to say NO, no I don't like the color pink, no I don't like being tickled, no I won't get in red cars. Whatever. They have a right. No one should tell them they need to get over it until they want to get over it. I took what my IC said with a grain of salt. I think it was my choice when to decide to get over my hangup about being tickled, but I think it's correct that someone who's been hurt needs to learn that not everyone is going to hurt them, not everyone is that guy. I think IC was technically correct, but not until I was ready to heal. Until then, IC should have been telling H he was wrong and pretty insensitive, idiotic, rude, and deserved a smackdown for not listening to what I was trying to tell him and for not acting like he cared how I felt. But, like I said, we were trying to get H to open up, and we couldn't very well start marriage counseling by ganging up on the one who was LEAVING.
H is not a bad guy. But he is not a nice guy either. I still see all kinds of opportunity for us, but not if he won't ever be willing to look inside and fix whatever's broken in him. Boo.
Adinva 51, S20, S18 M24 total 6/15/11-12/1/12 From IDLY to H moving out 9/15/15-3/7/17 From negotiating SA to final D at age 50 5/8/17-now: New relationship with an old friend __ Happiness is a warm puppy.
