Riding the Bull

[2chiquitos]

I'm not going to to tell you that you shouldn't have had that talk with her. Sometimes you need to remind them that you're still fighting for the marriage.

I got a knot in my throat with your surprise bday at work. That's so so nice, thoughtful and caring. You're so fortunate to have a kind workplace. That's a biggy since most people are general stressed and/or unappreciated. Relish in that moment ;-)

also, it's only been a few mos since your sitch started. Patience, give it more time. Remember Admiral Stockdale.

HAPPY BDAY!!!! Please please do me a favor! Go have a drink with your friends. I would LOVE to do something like that but with 2 little kids and nursing it's not as easy for me to do.

[AlkalineThoughts]

That didn't last. I did a major backslide and cornered W into R talk.

The details are up in the air but most of it was done calmly and the gist of it is that I told my W how I felt about her and OM and how it hurt me. I guess I just didn't want her to think I was ok with what she was doing. I also mentioned how I was standing for this marriage and how much I love her (I know!) and believe in her and all that stuff I should have kept for me.

Arsene, no one is perfect at this an no one does it exactly by the book... Plus, what's done is done, so no use in beating yourself up over it now... Learn a lesson, move one, and apply it next time...

It sounds like you started setting some boundaries, which is a good thing. The parts where you told her how it hurt you... well you were honest there, so that's good... but let's let that phrase die a horrible death now. IMO, the key to setting boundaries is to portray the inner STRENGTH you've found... Still, it's been said, and it's in her head now, so that's that.

I don't see anything wrong with telling her you believe in her or that you're standing for the marriage... although the latter may be stating the obvious. Expressing your love for her... well that's probably obvious too, but I understand the need to express that in this sitch.

She told me she felt like I was trying to control her by standing and I told her that no, I was doing what I wanted to do and if the time came when it wasn't what I wanted to do anymore, I'd stop doing it. I told her I was not telling her what to do, simply what I was doing.

This was to be expected... I hope you threw a little validation in here over the "control" issue.

She kept saying I should just move on and get another woman and leave her be. I told her that I didn't need or want another woman. That I was sure that if one day she reconsidered, we would be happier than we ever were and that we wouldn't just have an ordinary marriage. She said she didn't want to go back and that I should stop living in the past. I told her I didn't want to go back either. That I was talking about the future and that it was her who kept bringing out the past. I told her that the man I was then is no longer here and that she can let him go.

Here's where it sounds, to me at least, that it took a kinda nasty turn... It sounds a lot like you were blaming here here... by bringing up that she was the one who kept bringing up the past... by telling her how much you've changed... These things don't resonate in her head... These are passive-aggressive attacks... And you should truly ponder what she said here, about not living in the past... it's a key to your detachment.

She also said many times that it doesn't matter who one is with because it's just a process and we are all one. I told her that if it really didn't matter then why did she have to be with OM. If it didn't matter she could simply come back to her family. I told her that if for her it didn't matter for me and D8 it did.

More attacking and trying to change her mind via your words...

At one point, she also told me that she fell in love with me because she could talk to me, really talk. I asked if she felt she still could and she said that lately she did. Later she told me that she didn't talk to anyone anymore. That she was satisfied with basic mindless small-talk lately. The deep talks were just too involved and no one understood her anyway and it was too much to think about.

THIS should SCREAM at you how important detachment and separation are right NOW... If she's missing the deep conversations at some points... but then can get them from you whenever she wants (or whenever OM isn't up to task) then you'll be in the space your in for a VERY long time... Why not make her TRULY miss them?

During this convo, I managed to also tell her how I would appreciate if she minimized the use of her phone when she was around. And to generally show a bit more sensitivity when she comes around and try to put herself in my shoes.
I also said that it would be great if she let me know when she'll be around to see D8 or to spend the night. She was quite angry on this one and it became an issue for some reason. I managed to calm her down and eventually she agreed that it would be courteous to do so and would avoid misunderstandings.

Remember anger isn't always a bad thing... It's good that you set these, admittedly soft, boundaries. NOW, you need to make absolutely sure that you're ready to enforce them... Have you thought about the consequences for her breaking them?

Not my finest hour for sure. But if I lost my mind, I never lost my head and stayed calm and somewhat composed and upbeat during most of the convo. Except for on bit where W felt trapped and started fighting, the whole convo was from light enough with the odd humorous comment to serious with the both of us looking deeply into each others' eyes. I was overall able to show a bit of poise and confidence even though in retrospect an outsider might have detected the odd moment of pathos as well.

Anyway, towards the end things calmed down and I managed to bring light humor in the convo once again and even to flirt a bit (I know!).

During this convo, W laughed, cried, was angry, was concerned, smiled, joked and we ended up hugging, during which she pulled me back when I tried to release.

I'm a big proponent of throwing in humor into these heady conversations... it helps break the tension and allows you to regain a bit of control over the direction...

Again, I point out the things I've pointed out not to be punitive or scold you in any way... just to try to help with the lessons you'll learn going forward, for the next conversation... Although I'm clearly no expert!

I'm not sure what it accomplished or whether it will be positive or negative but I'll just go back to the plan for now, put extra efforts on GAL, and try to keep my mouth shut for the next little while...

...and DETACH, DETACH, DETACH!!!

It accomplished what you decide it accomplished... If you're true to the boundaries you set, and enforce them, then that's something positive to take out of this convo. And either way, you now have more information then when the conversation started, so that's good... But you said it yourself... It's time to REALLY focus on GAL and Detaching... don't let this conversation set you back... expect the "hangover" in both of your moods, but only focus on yourself here and how you'll use this as a positive moving forward.

And dig in a little deeper into this foxhole Arsene!

[afa75]

Good for you Arsene. All of the talk was not perfect as AK pointed out, but some positives for sure. Plus, you'll do even better next time. We DBer's have a better chance I'd learning from our mistakes than others. Maybe b/c we have each other to help guide us.

As stated, work on GAL and Detach for yourself / D8. Make this year your year (day by day) . Happy Bday again!

[chatterbug]

AT why would you validate control ?

[AlkalineThoughts]

Not validating control, but validating her feelings (I understand that you feel that way, however these are simply MY personal boundaries...) before simply telling her she's wrong...

[Arsene]

Thanks AT,

Great post. I'll have to go over it again when I'm rested. I did have a huge case of convo hangover this morning. Loads of anxiety and tears. Barely slept last night and I'm exhausted today at work but at least, I managed to get a half decent PMA by the time W showed up at noon with the car (which I needed today). She was pleasant and we even joked about the night's events so I guess there isn't too much damage, if any, to the progress we've made.

I've got a few questions that I thought about but I'll post them a bit later. I need to get a bit of work done.

Thanks Afa and CB for pitching in.

[Denver_2010]

How about you let her travel her own path without you for a while so that she doesn't feel controlled? So that she can decide for herself what she wants for her life? I'm sorry, but that is the only answer.

[Beardown]

Congratulations on setting some boundaries! I agree with Denver on letting her drive the conversation for a while. I haven't initiated a call or text to W since October 8. The first week their was no contact and now she is calling and texting almost everyday. W will feel in control and you will also be working a 180 on her by not showing control yourself.

[Beardown]

Arsene,
I have caught up on your sitch and feel will need to stick together. I feel for you being torn between spending any time with W but knowing they will soon be in the arms of the OM. If you choose to continue spending time with W, tell yourself that every text she gets is from OM. At some point it stops driving you nuts and you then can refocus on "as if". Deep down I know it hurts but we are trying to show them our new, attractive side that will draw them back to us. For me this is tough because I wear my emotions on my face. W can see exactly how I am feeling. But as I have gotten stronger my emotions have followed suit. Happy belated birthday! Stay strong my friend!

[Arsene]

Yes Denver. I agree. I guess I got carried away with what I saw as progress and reading (or misreading) the "signs". I tried to rush things and now I'm feeling it. In the end, W still isn't here, she is still with OM and she still won't reconsider so I guess in a sense I'm no worse than yesterday but I felt horrible and extremely anxious all day.

On the up side, I've got a bit of new intel re: why she fell in love with me and based on what she told me, it might be something that would still work in my favor.

Other intel also about the fact that she sees my standing as an act of control. Like I'm trying to manipulate her in doing what I want her to do.

She also said that she was tired of trying to please everyone, that she felt that even now she was still trying to please me. I asked her if she was trying to please OM. She said she didn't.

I know I'm probably torturing myself for nothing but I keep rehashing the convo in my head and there are still so many things that she says that don't make sense and don't fit with her statement that she's happy and that she is doing what she wants. Besides, if someone repeats they are happy every other sentence, you feel like they are trying to convince themselves.

It looks like her entire band (including OM) abandoned her with her Saturday gig where the owners left the country for a month. That's why she had to rehearse with another guitarist. She's going to do it as a duet. That's always been a problem around here. Musicians are mercenary. They are only loyal to the pay check. She's also been told that if she wanted a certain gig, she had to get a second singer and that they might have to change the style of music they do. Another sign that there is no such thing as total freedom.

On top of that, another bar where she used to play won't give her work with her present band. They want her to sing with their own musicians. This might have to do with OM as that's where she was playing when she started her EA 2 years ago. That type of stuff is frowned upon in these parts.

She's having to take on more and more teaching hours (which pays very little) and she has less and less time to work on her music. She wanted to work on her own songs but now all of that is on hold because of time and money.

She also said a lot of conflicting stuff about "us". For example, I had mentioned possibly taking D8 to Vietnam for the Christmas holiday. We can get cheap flights from here and we have a few friends living there. D8 was excited and told W about it. W then suggested we could also go to another neighbouring country where her sister lives in a very touristic area so D8 could spend time with her cousin. D8 really liked that idea. So last night, I just mentioned in passing if it really would be ok for me and D8 to go there. W replied that she might be working and might not be able to come with us but that if she does we could still go on our own. She spoke as if we were planning a family holiday. I didn't ask what she meant.

She seems to want to push me to see other women. No matter what I say to her, she keeps telling me to do so. I'm sure part of it is to alleviate the guilt she feels and to perhaps lessen my pain but I was wondering today if it wasn't a ploy to see how she feels about it.

I don't know, a lot about the convo tells me she's done, but I feel that there is still some love in her. Afterall, we managed to have a bit of a laugh throughout this otherwise serious convo and she often smiled while looking in my eyes.

Also, the way she seems to evade questions which would reveal too much about how unsure she is about things and the way she goes back to her Buddhist mantra that none of it matters and that we are all one, when ever a tough question was asked tells me that there is also lots of confusion and uncertainty.

I know exactly what I need to do but I'm not sure if I can. As many of you have mentioned I need to switch my focus on myself and D8 and put some distance between W and I. I need to detach and step up on GAL. It's too bad because since I had to cancel my gig last week because of the accident, it looks like I might now have lost it all together. That was one thing that helped me GAL. I'll see if I can get something elsewhere. It feels like so many of the projects I had on the go just stopped moving for some reasons. I'll look at my options and see if I can find ways to get them to pick up again. I really need to find something positive to focus on.

Beardown, thanks for dropping by. I agree with you that our sitches kind of follow one another although I had a first bout in 2010 when W met her OM and had an EA. Your W also seems to be showing interest in you while still seeing OM. Like Denver says, it all depends on your pain threshold. I though I could do this for a long time but I think I'm reaching mine now. I have to be careful though, because W is also the sponsor for the Visa I need to be here and we have many "immigration dates" together. I don't think she would do it but she could still tell me that I'm on my own and then I'd need to find another way to stay here or I'd have to leave.

I'll keep an eye on you mate.

Cheers