Brand New here, my story, my ?'s

[Norfolkdumpling]

Hey Ichrus, seems like you are working through things pretty well. I believe trying to understand the depth of patience that you have to have is like trying to understand infinity. It just hurts your head. Keep doing what works, keep on GAL, keep on disengaging.

From one "control" junkie to another really just let her be. I found myself talking the talk a lot, "I know I can't control/change things" but then longing to be "fixing" things again! I eventually found myself weaning myself off trying to make him see the error of his ways. It is a gradual process but this type of situation for us "controlling types" is mostly about combating our fear of being out of control. We spent years controlling everything we could around us, or thinking we did, & then along comes the bomb!

Once I could truly accept that there was only one person I could have complete control over, I found it was really rather liberating. This has been really valuable in all aspects of my life not just my M. I have learnt that I can't control anything except how I respond, & a good C said to me, "you can choose to either react, or respond".

On another note re: your W sleeping on the couch. For me personally I told my H during his MLC/PA that I was still committed to our marriage & I would accept responsibility for 50% of the problems, however I would NOT accept responsibility for HIS CHOICE to have an affair. As such, keep staying in your bed, stay in your house, & stay true to yourself. H told me later that he had a fantasy that I'd just go & leave him in the house & make it easy for him! (Fat chance, I play the long game!!) My H said during his PA it was as if he'd experienced temporary insanity. I remember thinking that at the time, but fortunately I had enough advice from DB etc not to say that to him. I know my behaviour during this hiatus in our M totally confused him, but also he was on a crazy emotional/sexual rollercoaster of his own so a great deal of the time he didn't even "see" me. The MLC or WAS are usually so self absorbed they don't have the capacity to feel empathy, or much empathy at least. As such try not to take any of the W's behaviour personally, I know that sounds nuts but this is all about her, not you. I do feel for you & your concern for her wellbeing though. Most days I looked at my H's face & couldn't decide whether to slap it or kiss it!! He was living a life he wanted but it definitely hurt him. Following the advice from Michelle & DB we are now reconciled & dare I say it, happy. Yet - I take nothing for granted anymore. Most of all kudos to you for trying to work on your M. Only 3 of my best friends know about our troubles & I am grateful for that. There are many out there that think it is a sign of the mentally/emotionally weak if you stay after an EA or PA. I guarantee that there are plenty of folks at DB who can testify that is not the case!

Just stay positive & make sure that your actions match up with your words - good luck!

[Ichrus]

Norfolk...thank you for your reply and your thoughts, I certainly do fit the mold you laid out of talking the talk but still having that urge to try to fix stuff...that is one of my struggles moving forward and detaching as well (but I recognize it and try to work on it daily).

So W forwarded the email her mom sent her, it was quite harsh, really laid into her about her choices and how this is all about W and not kids or anyone else, that MIL feels the reason W is moving toward D so quickly is because of OM, and she doubts he will be around long anyway leaving W all alone until "the next young man needs the companionship of an older lady"! W was really hurt and upset by the whole thing, and I agree that her mom laid into her hard, but I agree with some of the sentiment behind it. I listened to W vent, tried to validate her feelings.

I worry a bit that I may have done a bit too much to try to make her feel better (like should I have said something along the lines of "I don't agree with all of what you Mom said, but I share some of her feelings toward you on this), I guess I just don't want W to feel like I approve or am really on board with her plans even if I am going along with some of the "planning".

BUT...despite my worries, last night W was complaining about having a really sore back and neck, and (smiling and joking) that I should bring her home a masseuse with dinner, I joked back that I couldn't find any, so she was stuck with me. So later in the night I decide to put on my flame suit and take a small shot, asked if she needed anything while she was reading in bed, or if she needed a bit of a massage, she said "sure, you can rub my back". This is sort of big to me because for the past few months me touching her in any way brought on strong negative reactions. Gave her a nice, long back rub (and I must say it felt so good to just be able to touch her skin to skin again), did not push it to becoming sexual, but it was more then just professional might do (light rubs up and down her sides, that sort of thing). She responded very well, seemed relaxed and said at the end she felt a bit better, although achy in other ways ;-). I decided not to pursue or push anything too fast, so said "your welcome" and walked a way for a bit to cool down myself.

Got myself into bed later, wife took her pillows and stuff to head to the couch, she came back about 5 mins later and asked if it was ok if she slept in the bed tonight because she doesn't want our oldest daughter to always find her on the couch in the morning. I said she is welcome to share the bed tonight or any night she wants, and just turned over to go to sleep. Decided to not make a big deal of it tonight or today and try to just let her feel comfortable with me touching her again and her staying in the bed if she likes. I am somewhat encouraged, but keep telling myself to not expect or really hope for anything, STAY DETACHED, take things super slow and just keep doing what I am doing.

Time to see what today will bring...and will be interested to see where she chooses to sleep tonight.

[Ichrus]

Updates:

So interesting few days. W is very much an emotional mess right now, says she hates her life and all the pressure and everything is so hard (umm yeah, no kidding, I warned you early on this was going to be way harder and hurt way more then either of us could imagine...not said to her, just in my mind). W says she was so sure of her path and what she wanted, so sure and ready to put deposit on apt. and move ahead with plans to move out come June...but email from her mom changed some things, speaking to SIL with D parents (who said she still questions why her parents got D and is still hurt by it), seeing the happiness of our kids in our home together (and my positive interactions with them) and maybe some pressure from OM (who apparently was not "done with all this" last week...not surprising to me, heard this before about 4 times now, but last night laid down something like "maybe we should just be friends") all seems to be taking the toll on her.

W says she sees she is not being a great mother to our kids right now, she is beginning to really worry about the effect a D will have on them, she worries about how her mom and I will feel about her if she does move out/D (asked me last night if I would be mad with her..."umm yeah, I am not going to be happy about it and not going to be super friendly to you, and we will have to see how things go". I believe she is more and more starting to see the flaws in her fairytale and the hard realities that might come with big choices like this (mind reading a bit, but also from her telling me these things). Good info - she said one of her biggest fears is being left and left alone again...she felt I checked out on our marriage long ago and made her feel alone for a long time and that she doesn't want to be out on her own, alone, maybe trying to date at this point in her life. I validated and said she was right about how I treated her in the past, and I was sorry about that, and I have learned from that and I am going to be a much better partner for someone in the future (could be her, could be someone else). Also helped to reinforce the point for her, which she brought up, that she needs to make this decision without considering the OM being in the picture in the future...again I lightly said I really don't see it working anyway given everything, and she is clearly seeing some of the issues with him starting to develop in the talks (she joked/cried that he was breaking up with her already with the "lets just be friends" bit).

I am not getting my hopes up, not setting expectations (other then preparing myself to live life for me as best as I can going forward). I find it interesting, and am sort of glad my W is struggling with these questions and issues...she is worried about the kids (good) and is really trying to figure out what she needs to do and how all the pieces fit in that puzzle...I am not sure it will lead to us trying to R (and I could still see her needing to get out on her own to have life teach her some lessons), but just really interesting new developments in her thoughts...and her sharing fully with me. She said she feels comfortable with me, and is glad she can talk about things even though it is "weird" because other couples/men going thru this wouldn't act like this. She also said "why can't you be horrible to me, it would make things a lot easier". So I am glad my blend of giving her space while also adding some 180's like listening, not fixing, not judging, being there for her...are making her question and think.

I find it a bit strange for me that although I think overall I would want to work with my W on building a new R together...I think I was getting more and more prepared and comfortable with the impending separation in June and what my life could be like moving forward from that. So her now questioning that path in some ways has me worried, apprehensive, unsure...I guess I may have just been getting more accepting of what looked to be a fairly sure thing, and now their might be different options (and a path that could be a lot harder in some ways). Overall I believe I want to work on R with my W because I believe it is the best thing for our kids...I believe we could create love and happiness with each other again...W is not there yet.

So in for another interesting night of observation and maybe being there for her as best as I can right now. I want to show her a bit of the man I have and am becoming without throwing myself too much back into the mix just yet. She did choose to sleep in the bed last night (non eventful and non issue for me), so it will be interesting to see if she chooses the same tonight. Baby steps, could be some positive things happening...time will tell

[2thepoint]

Hey ICH - just got caught up on your sitch and see many similarities to mine. The fact that your W is having second thoughts I think is a good thing. It suggests that some of your efforts are paying off. Of course events also have a way of creating doubt in people's minds (i.e. the letter form her mom, the OM and his doubts, etc.).

My best advice for you at this time is to continue to validate, but don't push. Be sure you are truly owning up to your role in the marital problems and make sure you don't regress. Any meaningful 180's that you've done need to continue so that she will feel that a future with you in it will be better than it was before.

I find it a bit strange for me that although I think overall I would want to work with my W on building a new R together...I think I was getting more and more prepared and comfortable with the impending separation in June and what my life could be like moving forward from that.

This ^^^ suggests to me that you are doing well with your efforts to detach. I wish I could be so comfortable. With time, I suppose I will. But regardless, your growing comfort may also be what is drawing your W back to reality. She may sense you becoming more and more comfortable with the idea of being alone and now she has to think about all that that entails.

Overall I believe I want to work on R with my W because I believe it is the best thing for our kids...I believe we could create love and happiness with each other again...W is not there yet.

It is a delicate dance. You need to take it slow and you must also be sure that this is what you want. You seem a little apprehensive about even wanting to piece back the R. I guess I can see why, but you need to be sure this is what you want.

Good luck!

[Ichrus]

So update and possible "last" letter to W for your review, thoughts and 2x4s before I decide to give it to her. Very sorry for long post and thank you in advance for those who read and reply.

Sitch in home together has generally been much more relaxed, in same bed again, even cuddle/close (but no full ML). W is set on moving out 5/27 into apartment she has deposit on. Has meeting with doc prep company tomorrow 5/11 to put together divorce papers. W has struggled with stress and has bounced back and forth a bit on her reasons for going...but still says she just feels there has been too much that happened in the past and she thinks she needs to move out and move on (I can understand and see how she feels that, and how she would need a fresh start to gain the perspective and have life teach her the costs of all this). OM is still in picture at some level (calls and texts I think), but I am not really too focused or concerned about him other then fact that I know while he is in the picture, there is no R work for us possible.

I am sort of ok with her moving out, less ok with starting the Divorce papers and even though I hate it, I can see how and why she would need it for closure and to get away from us to gain better perspective on it all...especially since CA has a 6 mo waiting period, and as others have said, it is just paper and our our M was dead anyway. I also think this is the only way she will really experience the costs and more fully realize what she lost...my main problem and frustration is the affect this will have on our three young daughters. I feel like I want and need to do anything and everything I can to shelter and protect them from this happening...I know it will shatter their world, hurt them and could have some serious life long effects on them...thus I want to know your thoughts on a letter like this (I am really considering editing out most of the OM stuff and making it a bit more soft in how I approach it, if at all):


Dear W,
I am not sure yet that I will give you this letter, I might just use it as a way to write out my feelings, frustrations and thoughts on where we are now and where we are headed in the near future. In less than two weeks we are going to have to sit down with our girls and shatter and change their lives forever, and I need to feel like I have done everything I can to avoid that talk before it happens…which is a part of my reason for writing this as well.

You need to do what you need to do…I understand and get that. I can see and understand why you feel you need to move out on your own, I can see and understand why you feel you need to divorce me, I don’t agree with you that this is the only path to happiness for you, us or our family, but you need to make your own decisions and choices, and pay the price for them. I am just so frustrated that your choice, and the path you are on, is going to hurt and negatively impact so many in our family (our girls, our siblings and parents) when I believe we have not done everything in our power to try to fix it first. I know I hurt you, ignored you, disrespected and undervalued you…I know now that I did not give you the attention and love you wanted, needed and deserved in a husband. I wish I could have done a million things differently, and I never intended to hurt you and I never in my heart was trying to push you away or make you feel so badly…I just did not tell you and show you enough, or in the right ways for you, how much I loved and needed you. I am sorry for the ways I neglected and hurt you in the past and more recently, and it is always going to be a major point of regret in my life. But I also now fully see and realize the mistakes I made and have, and am going to continue, to grow and learn from them so I don’t make the same mistakes in my future relationships.

Back when all of this started, I said, and you agreed, that we owe it to our kids and ourselves to try to work things out, and do anything and everything in our power to save our marriage, or to better describe it, to create a new, better, healthy, loving relationship moving forward. I thought it was important that we would be able to sit with the girls and say “we did everything we could to avoid this, but something things don’t work out”, and mean it and know it to be true in our hearts. I feel I have tried to work on every part of that possible to me given the situation, with deep personal introspection and changes in my heart and my actions. Do you feel, and can you say honestly in your heart, that you did everything you could to try to prevent this? Those that are connected and care about you most wonder about that and are going to ask if you feel you did everything you could (and our children are going to ask, and ask again, and re-ask over the coming years). I don’t say this as a husband trying to change your mind, but as someone who knows you well, has known you half your life and cares deeply about how your choices will affect you and your family in a major way…I don’t think you can say that you did everything you could to work on us. Trust me, I know my role in getting us here, and I fully realize that me pointing at you has three fingers pointed right back at me…I played a major role in putting you in this position, but that is also part of why I need to share what I see and what I feel. Believe it or not, I DID NOT realize how unhappy you were and how bad our relationship was in your eyes, I missed your clues and signs, I choose to ignore some and discounted others, I downplayed how bad you felt and thought “things will get better in the future, this is just a rough patch because of young kids, work, etc…we will have time to reconnect and fix things”. I knew things were not great, but did not realize how bad you thought they were…that is on me, but it is also on you. We both should have communicated our feelings and thoughts better, we both should have recognized problems and said “wait a min, there is something wrong here and we need to step back, look at it, talk about it and work to fix it now”.

Just like there are many things you wish I would have noticed or done (or not done) differently, I have the same feelings looking back now for you. I wish you would have fought more to help me understand your feelings of loss and unhappiness instead of dropping “hints” or “clues” and then just distancing yourself and building a wall. I wish we could have recognized our problems earlier and both decided it was worth it to work on them for ourselves and our children. One of my biggest frustrations is that when this all came to a head and we both became fully aware that our marriage was at stake, and that heading down the path of divorce would hurt our children now and likely long into the future, you decided that things were already done and that it was not worth it to try to give honest effort and time (giving anything and everything for us and our kids) to see if we could make it right. Although OM did not cause the problems in our marriage, he is certainly part of the trigger that brought us to these major decisions. You knew and said your relationship with him was wrong (and knew it was helping us along toward divorce), yet you chose to continue it and pursued it anyway. There will always be that question and doubt in my mind, of what might have happened if we took a chance to work on each other without outside influences. I am sorry, but to me the choices you made recently, and somewhat in the past, were not fighting and doing everything you could to help save your marriage for yourself and/or for our children…in fact, you choosing to pursue a relationship with him was making the choice that you wanted and needed divorce in spite of all the pain and harm it would bring to everyone else in your life. And the real core frustration of all of this to me…I believe you’re chasing a fantasy that will quickly crumble and you will come to realize how wrong it really was, but too late.

I am so sorry that I unknowingly hurt you so badly for so long that you could not even consider the amazing relationship and life we could have together and that we could provide for our children together. I am sorry you can’t share my vision of us working hard to learn to communicate better and become such close friends, lovers and soul mates. The feelings you have are not unique, our marriage problems and overall situation is not unique, you thinking there is no way to love me again and that your future with someone else could be so much better is not unique, and unfortunately, it will not be surprising when things don’t work out as you think between you and OM, and you realize that all the costs of leaving were maybe not worth giving up so quickly. So many couples have faced the very same things, and even much worse, and have decided for whatever reason to really work together to make love and make happiness for each other and for their families…and there are success stories from that and there are plenty of those that don’t work out and they do end up separated and divorced…but at least they really tried first.

I hope you consider and think about how you are feeling toward speaking to your siblings and parents, and how they have spoken to you. You feel pressured and don’t want to be judged negatively, but maybe there is a reason deep down inside of you that you feel so pressured and judged by them, you shouldn’t discount that feeling just because it is uncomfortable. These are the people who know, love and care about you the most in life…they don’t know the whole story, they don’t know what you feel or what you have been through fully…but they do care about you and don’t want to see you hurt or make choices that lead to you and the girls being hurt. Ultimately you always need to make your own choices in life, for the little and big things, but it is worth it to pause and consider when you have those you love and care about most in life really questioning what you are doing…they are not doing it out of wanting you to feel bad, they are doing it out of loving you and being afraid for where you might be headed. You will still have to make your own decisions, but even though it can be hard and painful to consider and listen, it is worth it to really think about what they question and say to you for such major life choices. Then ultimately you can say to them and yourself, “I listened to you, I heard you, I appreciate your love and concern for me, I considered it and I still decided I had to make this choice for myself”.

Fear…I know I am really feeling it more as time ticks down. I know ultimately that I will be fine, and you will be fine, and life will go on, and things will eventually get better. But I am so afraid of what this is going to do to D1, D2 and D3 now, in the near future and how it will affect their lives, perceptions and relationships later in life. I think we will figure out how to be co-parents and will do everything we can to raise them well and get them through all this, and I think and hope they will grow and learn from it, work through the hard times and become great, beautiful, well-adjusted young women…I am just so afraid of the “what might happen” situations and I know they would be better off with us together rather than us apart. Should people stay together just for the kids and otherwise be unhappy in their marriage…I think it depends on the level of stress and unhappiness in the home, and how willing the parents are to work to make things better. Should people divorce when kids are involved because they are just done and unhappy and can’t see how it could ever work…not without doing anything and everything possible to avoid it first in my opinion, I believe the costs and the “What if’s” are too much to not try every other option first. We might disagree on this, and we both need to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our children…me making these points and thoughts very clear to you (and clear to myself) as we reach these critical points is part of me doing what I feel I need to so I can say in my heart and to my girls, “yes, I did everything I could…”

[25yearsmlc]

So update and possible "last" letter to W for your review, thoughts and 2x4s before I decide to give it to her. Very sorry for long post and thank you in advance for those who read and reply.

ICRUS- I WILL GIVE THIS A TRY BUT I ONLY PART OF YOUR SITCH...

Sitch in home together has generally been much more relaxed, in same bed again, even cuddle/close (but no full ML). W is set on moving out 5/27 into apartment she has deposit on. Has meeting with doc prep company tomorrow 5/11 to put together divorce papers. W has struggled with stress and has bounced back and forth a bit on her reasons for going...but still says she just feels there has been too much that happened in the past and she thinks she needs to move out and move on (I can understand and see how she feels that, and how she would need a fresh start to gain the perspective and have life teach her the costs of all this).


HOW DO YOU REACT WHEN THIS^^ IS BEING SAID??

OM is still in picture at some level (calls and texts I think), but I am not really too focused or concerned about him other then fact that I know while he is in the picture, there is no R work for us possible.

I am sort of ok with her moving out, less ok with starting the Divorce papers and even though I hate it, I can see how and why she would need it for closure and to get away from us to gain better perspective on it all...especially since CA has a 6 mo waiting period, and as others have said, it is just paper and our our M was dead anyway. I also think this is the only way she will really experience the costs and more fully realize what she lost...my main problem and frustration is the affect this will have on our three young daughters. I feel like I want and need to do anything and everything I can to shelter and protect them from this happening...I know it will shatter their world, hurt them and could have some serious life long effects on them...thus I want to know your thoughts on a letter like this (I am really considering editing out most of the OM stuff and making it a bit more soft in how I approach it, if at all):

UNDERSTOOD....BUT THE GIRLS WILL REACT, IN PART, BASED ON HOW YOU REACT...REMEMBER THAT.

BE AS REASSURING AS POSSIBLE.Stress what will NOT change in their lives, for instance if they'll be in the same area or school or still see the same friends, and how often they will see you. Be detailed about that and not vague....

(NOTE that no woman is unmoved by the loving interactions of her h with their children. It's a turn on at some level. Make it real. Be the best dad you can possibly be, NOW... NOT to get her back but b/c your girls need you now more than ever.)

By the way, if you wrote in smaller paragraphs and could break them up some, it would be easier to read...


Dear W,
I am not sure yet that I will give you this letter, I might just use it as a way to write out my feelings, frustrations and thoughts on where we are now and where we are headed in the near future. In less than two weeks we are going to have to sit down with our girls and shatter and change their lives forever, and I need to feel like I have done everything I can to avoid that talk before it happens…which is a part of my reason for writing this as well. I want to know I've left no stone unturned in trying to protect them, and us, from more pain.

You need to do what you need to do…(Most of the following paragraph is redundant to the point it gets confusing..I'd Delete most of it).

I understand and get that YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE FREE OF OUR M. . I can see and understand why you feel you need to move out on your own, I can see and understand why you feel you need to divorce me, I don’t agree with you that this is the only path to happiness for you, us or our family, but you need to make your own decisions and choices, and pay the price for them. I am just so frustrated that your choice, and the path you are on, is going to hurt and negatively impact so many in our family (our girls, our siblings and parents) when

ICHRUS-- you claim to "understand and get" it but it's clear by the rest of this and how you blame her for hurting the families and frustrate YOU, that you do not get it.

IF YOU DO GET IT, admit some specific flaw YOU HAVE that you would change.

B/c here's the deal...if your wife does Not believe that marriage to you can be better/different than before

she won't return to it.

So, how are YOU SHOWING HER that YOU CAN CHANGE???

HOW WOULD MARRIAGE TO YOU BE DIFFERENT/BETTER FROM THIS DAY FORWARD??

WOULD YOU THROW THE A IN HER FACE EVERY TIME YOU FIGHT OR HOLD IT OVER HER HEAD LIKE THE SWORD OF DAMACLES?

IF YOUR LETTER SOUNDS AT ALL UNFORGIVING

OR AS IF YOU ARE THE INJURED PARTY-

THEN SHE WILL BELIEVE YOU WON'T GET PAST THIS-

AND SHE'S NOT GOING TO TRY AND RECONCILE

B/C WHY SHOULD SHE?

SHE FEELS YOU PUSHED HER INTO OM'S ARMS AND NOW IF SHE WANTS TO WORK ON THINGS

YOU'LL JUST HAVE MORE AMMO...

AND MOST OF YOUR LETTER FEELS THAT WAY TO ME.
SORRY...



I believe we have not done everything in our power to try to fix it first. I know I hurt you, ignored you, disrespected and undervalued you…

I know now that I did not give you the attention and love you wanted, needed and deserved in a husband.

(LIST AT LEAST ONE SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR YOU WOULD CHANGE OR IT'S TOO VAGUE) OR say "If I had it all to do over again, I'd do a lot of things differently."



I wish I could have done a million things differently, and I never intended to hurt you and I never in my heart was trying to push you away or make you feel so badly…I just did not tell you and show you enough, or in the right ways for you, how much I loved and needed you.


YOU'RE REPEATING YOURSELF ^^^ TOO MUCH and

that repetition ends up diluting the message, NOT strengthening it. Make sense?...

I am sorry for the ways I neglected and hurt you in the past and more recently, and it is always going to be a major point of regret in my life.


I am going to continue, to grow and learn from them TO WORK ON BECOMING THE MAN I WAS MEANT TO BE, AND THE MAN YOU DESERVED, so I don’t make the same mistakes in my future relationships.

Back when all of this started, I said, and you agreed, that we owe it to our kids and ourselves to try to work things out, and do anything and everything in our power to save our marriage, or to better describe it, to create a new, better, healthy, loving relationship moving forward. I thought it was important that we would be able to sit with the girls and say “we did everything we could to avoid this, but something things don’t work out”, and mean it and know it to be true in our hearts.

THIS^^ JUST LEADS UP TO BLAMING HER FOR LEAVING, AGAIN...AND IT SOUNDS AS IF THE ONLY WAY TO GET YOU TO WAKE UP WAS BY HER DOING THIS VERY THING...SO DON'T WAFFLE. EITHER YOU ARE BECOMING A BETTER MAN (AND THAT'S HER LOSS, ULTIMATELY) OR YOU ARE USING FEIGNED CHANGES AS TACTICS TO GET HER BACK. IF IT'S REAL, TIME WILL REVEAL THAT.

I feel I have tried to work on every part of that possible to me given the situation, with deep personal introspection and changes in my heart and my actions. Do you feel, and can you say honestly in your heart, that you did everything you could to try to prevent this?


DO NOT ASK HER THIS^^. THIS LETTER IS ONLY ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT YOU AND YOUR PERSONAL WORK. YOU APOLOGIZE TO HER FOR YOUR FAILINGS BUT YOU DO NOT THEN GET TO ASSIGN SOME TO HER....DO YOU SEE WHY THAT DOES NOT BELONG IN THIS LETTER?



Those that are connected and care about you most wonder about that and are going to ask if you feel you did everything you could (and our children are going to ask, and ask again, and re-ask over the coming years). I don’t say this as a husband trying to change your mind, but as someone who knows you well,


I CALL THIS^^^ BS....STOP PRETENDING YOU ARE NOT TRYING TO CHANGE HER MIND. THE ONLY WAY TO REACH HER IS TO ASK NOTHING OF HER. JUST EXPRESS YOUR LOVE AND YOUR REGRET IN THIS LETTER....


has known you half your life and cares deeply about how your choices will affect you and your family in a major way…I don’t think you can say that you did everything you could to work on us.


DELETE THIS...IT'S REPETITIVELY BLAMING HER FOR THE ULTIMATE DEMISE OF THE MARRIAGE RIGHT AFTER YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY "OWNING" YOUR ROLE. IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO BE BELIEVABLE. HECK, I DON'T THINK I BELIEVE IT AND I WANT TO.


Trust me, I know my role in getting us here, and I fully realize that me pointing at you has three fingers pointed right back at me…I played a major role in putting you in this position, but that is also part of why I need to share what I see and what I feel.

Believe it or not, I DID NOT realize how unhappy you were and how bad our relationship was in your eyes, I missed your clues and signs, I choose to ignore some and discounted others, I downplayed how bad you felt and thought “things will get better in the future, this is just a rough patch because of young kids, work, etc…we will have time to reconnect and fix things”. I knew things were not great, but did not realize how bad you thought they were…that is on me, but it is also on you. We both should have communicated our feelings and thoughts better, we both should have recognized problems and said “wait a min, there is something wrong here and we need to step back, look at it, talk about it and work to fix it now”.


SEE ABOVE COMMENTS...YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN. NO WOMAN WOULD BE MOVED OR PERSUADED BY THIS^^ PARAGRAPH....WHAT IS YOUR REAL GOAL HERE?

Just like there are many things you wish I would have noticed or done (or not done) differently, I have the same feelings looking back now for you. I wish you would have fought more to help me understand your feelings of loss and unhappiness instead of dropping “hints” or “clues” and then just distancing yourself and building a wall. I wish we could have recognized our problems earlier and both decided it was worth it to work on them for ourselves and our children. One of my biggest frustrations is that when this all came to a head and we both became fully aware that our marriage was at stake, and that heading down the path of divorce would hurt our children now and likely long into the future, you decided that things were already done and that it was not worth it to try to give honest effort and time (giving anything and everything for us and our kids) to see if we could make it right. Although OM did not cause the problems in our marriage, he is certainly part of the trigger that brought us to these major decisions. You knew and said your relationship with him was wrong (and knew it was helping us along toward divorce), yet you chose to continue it and pursued it anyway.

There will always be that question and doubt in my mind, of what might have happened if we took a chance to work on each other without outside influences. I am sorry, but to me the choices you made recently, and somewhat in the past, were not fighting and doing everything you could to help save your marriage for yourself and/or for our children…in fact, you choosing to pursue a relationship with him was making the choice that you wanted and needed divorce in spite of all the pain and harm it would bring to everyone else in your life. And the real core frustration of all of this to me…I believe you’re chasing a fantasy that will quickly crumble and you will come to realize how wrong it really was, but too late.


YOU NEED TO READ CRIMSON'S LETTER TO HIS WIFE, WHICH GOT HER TO PUSH THE "PAUSE" BUTTON ON THEIR DIVORCE.

YOU ARE GETTING WAY OFF TRACK HERE IF YOU THINK THAT BABBLING ON ABOUT WHAT SHE DID WRONG, WITH A FEW "I'M SORRY'S" TOSSED IN, IS GOING TO HELP YOU OR YOUR SITCH...AGAIN I ASK

WHAT IS THE GOAL OF THIS MEANDERING BLAME FILLED SEMI APOLOGETIC PSEUDO ANALYSIS OF YOUR MARRIAGE'S FAILINGS? SOOO NOT HELPING YOU....

YOUR GOAL, I THOUGHT, WAS TO REVEAL CHANGE IN YOU AND NEW INSIGHTS YOU HAVE ABOUT YOU...nothing else...


I still believe we could someday have an am so sorry that I unknowingly hurt you so badly for so long that you could not even consider the amazing relationship and life we could have together WITH OUR CHILDREN, LEAVING THEM A LEGACY OF COMMITMENT, REDEMPTION AND FORGIVENESS.

and that we could provide for our children together. I am sorry you can’t share my vision of us working hard to learn to communicate better and become such close friends, lovers and soul mates. The feelings you have are not unique, our marriage problems and overall situation is not unique, you thinking there is no way to love me again and that your future with someone else could be so much better is not unique, and unfortunately, it will not be surprising when things don’t work out as you think between you and OM, and you realize that all the costs of leaving were maybe not worth giving up so quickly.

DELETE THIS ^^ PARAGRAPH....

THIS WILL MAKE HER WANT OM EVEN MORE, AND OR TO MAKE IT WORK WITH HIM EVEN MORE B/C YOU ARE, AGAIN, MAKING HER WRONG...AND YOU ARE BEING A VICTIM AND SHE'S THE BAD GUY.

BUT YOU SEE, IN HER EYES, YOU SHOVED HER INTO OM'S ARMS

BUT NOW THAT YOU SEE COMPETITION, YOU SUDDENLY CARE

YET YOU THEN WANT TO MAKE SURE YOU RUB IN HER FACE HOW MUCH SHE'LL REGRET IT-WHAT A MISTAKE!

MY GUESS IS YOU'D BE THE LAST PERSON SHE'D TELL IF THE TIME CAME WHEN SHE DID REGRET IT.

YOU ARE CORNERING HER AND SHE WILL BE TOO PROUD TO CRAWL BACK NOW. IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT?
REMEMBER...
YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO KEEP THE ROAD HOME, PAVED & SMOOTH...

Don't make it any harder for her to come back, then it already would be...


So many couples have faced the very same things, and even much worse, and have decided for whatever reason to really work together to make love and make happiness for each other and for their families…and there are success stories from that and there are plenty of those that don’t work out and they do end up separated and divorced…but at least they really tried first.

I hope you consider and think about how you are feeling toward speaking to your siblings and parents, and how they have spoken to you. You feel pressured and don’t want to be judged negatively, but maybe there is a reason deep down inside of you that you feel so pressured and judged by them, you shouldn’t discount that feeling just because it is uncomfortable. These are the people who know, love and care about you the most in life…they don’t know the whole story, they don’t know what you feel or what you have been through fully…but they do care about you and don’t want to see you hurt or make choices that lead to you and the girls being hurt.

Ultimately you always need to make your own choices in life, for the little and big things, but it is worth it to pause and consider when you have those you love and care about most in life really questioning what you are doing…they are not doing it out of wanting you to feel bad, they are doing it out of loving you and being afraid for where you might be headed. You will still have to make your own decisions, but even though it can be hard and painful to consider and listen, it is worth it to really think about what they question and say to you for such major life choices. Then ultimately you can say to them and yourself, “I listened to you, I heard you, I appreciate your love and concern for me, I considered it and I still decided I had to make this choice for myself”.

Fear…I know I am really feeling it more as time ticks down. I know ultimately that I will be fine, and you will be fine, and life will go on, and things will eventually get better. But I am so afraid of what this is going to do to D1, D2 and D3 now, in the near future and how it will affect their lives, perceptions and relationships later in life. I think we will figure out how to be co-parents and will do everything we can to raise them well and get them through all this, and I think and hope they will grow and learn from it, work through the hard times and become great, beautiful, well-adjusted young women…


I am just so afraid of the “what might happen” situations and I know they would be better off with us together rather than us apart. Should people stay together just for the kids and otherwise be unhappy in their marriage…I think it depends on the level of stress and unhappiness in the home, and how willing the parents are to work to make things better. Should people divorce when kids are involved because they are just done and unhappy and can’t see how it could ever work…not without doing anything and everything possible to avoid it first in my opinion, I believe the costs and the “What if’s” are too much to not try every other option first. We might disagree on this, and we both need to do what we feel is best for ourselves and our children…me making these points and thoughts very clear to you (and clear to myself) as we reach these critical points is part of me doing what I feel I need to so

I can say in my heart and to my girls, “yes, I did everything I could…”

REPHRASE THE LAST PART...maybe see if this feels authentic...and don't think I condone her affair. I do not. But the purpose of THIS LETTER is for her to see a new side of you and NONE of the old...

"I just wanted to know that I had at least once, clearly, told you how much I regret my mistakes and that I am a better man b/c of knowing you. These changes are real and I thank you for helping me to become the man I was meant to be."

Ichrus, I wish you good luck. But I think your letter is way way too long, I cannot imagine a letter more than a page or two, at most,

would be read and really considered. You go back and forth. ALSO you bring up the outside pressures to stay married (her family I presume)

and you seem to think that YOU pointing that out , helps. IT does not.

She knows what they are saying and by you adding to it, it only forces her to defend her choices more.

Stop challenging her choices and stop threatening her with the "someday you'll be sorry" stuff.

That just does NOT work. You are repeating things she already knows and must resent you for saying.

Just own your stuff and act as if you really are a changed man. That the next woman in your life will get the finished product, and let her simmer on that.

No, YOU DO NOT Point it out, you let her see it and consider that. Believe me, if there's love left,

or if time and space allows it to resurface, then she'll be bothered that some OW gets the benefits of HER hard work and sacrifice and gets to help raise HER d's...

you are smothering her while lying about how you "get it". If you get it, then get it and act as if you accept this...you regret it, but you accept it.

Did you ever read the first 37 Rules for newcomers?

It mentions how YOU must act as if you have had an awakening and that you now realize

you are going to be fine with or without her....and mean it. LET her wonder about how much YOUR Freedom will mean to you....

but show that the changes you are making are real. NOT mere tactics. She left a marriage in which she felt and was, neglected.

WHen she speaks, make eye contact and listen to her every word. Do NOT argue or challenge her or make her wrong.

You've done that enough. You cannot "Show" her that she's wrong by words about HER.

Hope you get this...

[25yearsmlc]

ps

any chance your w would consider attending the marriage retreat called "Retrovaille"? It's a real miracle worker (which you do not have to tell her. Keep her expectations, and yours, low enough so there's no pressure.)

It can help you communicate better and more calmly even if she thinks she will still want a divorce. IMO just getting her there would help and cannot hurt. There are couples there

who have successfully nagivated problems far worse than an affair. We heard one couple who had lost a child and there was an affair with a child born out of wedlock.

THEY solved it and worked it and stayed m...there's a follow up program too, and that's essential as well. But the weekend itself is an eye opener.

you do not have to be Catholic to attend (my h is not) and no one pushed religion on us. I do think being an atheist would be a drag b/c they do discuss having a spiritual connection.

The Church started the program in Canada (the word means "re discover"),
and of the 25 couples in our group 3 years ago, 22 are still together.

Not bad, considering the retreat weekend is for couples who have marriages in crisis.

Not bad at all.

[Ichrus]

25,
Thank you SO much for reading and your detailed response. I want to re-read and digest your thoughts a bit, but I truly get what you are saying and appreciate the "kick" in the better direction. I think my last paragraph gets to the heart of my mindset in looking at fear and the "countdown" to major moments in our lives...and I think I know that is why I am feeling a bit more panicked then I have been.

I have read the 37, and will refresh my reading tonight.

How I react to her saying she is moving forward is basically "you need to do what you feel is right, I don't agree but understand why you feel you need this". I think I have decided to be slightly off general DB opinion in that I am not actively helping W with separation or D work, but am somewhat involved in answering questions and working on details of custody and finance with her. For me, I feel she is set on this path and will do it with or without my involvement...and it will be better in keeping the road paved home smooth, and in the best interests of my kids and myself, to come to agreements on custody and support and financial issues together without going the full lawyer path.

I have and continue to make and live the changes of being the best father I can be for my girls, and know I need to be strong and a positive example for them...I am glad for that and W has noticed and said as much.

I can see how my first draft letter is too much blame and attack toward her (which is part of why I wrote it and posted first to get feedback and allow myself time to really think about it). It is from more core emotions of hurt and pain and fear, and I need to really stay on track with what is the right approach as opposed to just feelings and reactions...I would rather be happy ultimately then "right".

Yup, I was trying to be too selfish In "making" my case and trying to shame her into changes in her mind with the affects of family and kids...it just frustrates and angers me so much that our kids are going to have to go through this when I think it is not nessacary and I believe my W will eventually learn and feel that the cost of this all might be more then was worth it...but I can't controll that and can only be as strong and stable for my kids in this process as possible.

I think overall I have gotten "it" much better then in the beginning of this all...I have been more detached and do believe I will be fine without her if needed...just hitting a real hard patch lately in my mind and emotions for some reason...again, I think fear and the very real date of major changes this month are hitting me more.

Time to think and sleep on it a bit more, read some other letters, reflect, make some major edits and consider if giving her any letter at this point works toward my ultimate goals.

Again, thank you for the time and insights.

[25yearsmlc]

thing is


by only focussing on YOUR issues (which only you control and plus you don't want to try and mind read on her anyhow)

you force her to face HER role. You may disagree, but think about it.

WHen you really truly fully OWN your stuff and work on it (which I think is what "own" means)

then you've stolen her thunder.

I mean - If her complaints were mostly valid (they sound that way)

but you are addressing them.....then what does she have to say for herself now?


it's like saying " I left h b/c he was an alcoholic but now he's sober...." well???


yes I know she does not "FEEL IN LOVE" at the moment...really?

For me this is a question of TIME on her own if YOU play your cards right...
BACK OFF BIG TIME...

Learn to STFU and let her clear her head on her own with NO judgement from you. None...

there's already trouble in paradise w/the OM so let that relationship expire
on its' own...
b/c frankly, she does not know that most r's lose the honeymoon luster and

hopefully grow in other ways by- bonding over time and with each experience...

into a mature deep love that does have magic moments but maybe different.

Something else you may need to address was you apparent desire to see her flrit with other men. That sounds like more of a problem YOU have than wanting something for HER.

Sorry but the idea of OMs wanting her is about YOU, not her. I'd have felt very undesired or used or hurt by that if my h had asked that of me or didn't seem bothered by it. Just my opinion.


Our 2d graduating from college was romantic to me-- if you know what I mean...but not necessarily "erotic" but my point is, she does not know this yet.

Most long term m's say the hardest time in the marriage was the first few years after the 2nd child was born. Those are the years with the most demands and it's when the h's need to make extra efforts, not less...

The more you try to make her see the future or threaten her with her failure and regrets in the future, the fuzzier it'll be for her. A lot of this is your pride talking anyhow.

Give her time and space and own your stuff. She'll have no ammo if you say "Yes that WAS a problem of mine, which I'm working on now...."

(i.e., so it's not a problem anymore)

make sense?

[Ichrus]

25,

Makes sense very much. I have taken ownership of my mistakes and problems in all of this, and I continue to "own" my problems and try to give myself reminders to really re-check and think about my role in how we got here and what I need to do better. I have become a MUCH better father through all this and will always value and appreciate that part of this sitch. I also am much for focused on my friendships and relationships and try to make sure I enjoy and work on them while paying more attention to details. My W has noticed the changes and commented on them, saying she sees that I have gotten better with the kids and things have seemed a lot better between us in the home, but she does not trust that they will stick. I validate that and tell her I understand why she does not trust it, but these are things for me and I will be doing them and learning and growing from all of this regardless of what she believes or doesn't believe.

I certainly know now that the encouraging of her flirting with OM was a huge mistake and way out of bounds for a healthy, good M. It was my issue, and I believe at the time I realized things were not going well in our M and we needed some spark or something to re-energize it...I just made a horrible choice in what sort of spark to encourage as opposed to really looking at myself and our own problems and working on it together...trust me, I have very much learned from that mistake and never intend to come close to repeating it.

She is at a legal doc prep place as I type getting D papers going. She asked that I come along initially (because I have been working with her on coming up with separation agreement and breakdown of custody, assets, support, etc...my decision to do so because I feel it is in everyone's best interests, especially our kids), and originally I was going to go...but just could not square it away in my mind or heart that I could go to this with her. She was justifiably a bit angry about it (after I said I would go and pulling out of it), but I calmly explained that while I agree to work with her on many aspects of this, there are just some things I don't feel I can do...this is her basically deciding to fire me as her H and I can't go in and sit by her side and help her "officially" get that process going.

So I do plan to try to continue to detach and pull back. I will find out more about this paperwork thing tonight I am sure, and she has a move out date set for May 27. We plan on telling the kids as soon as school is over for them on May 23. I understand and basically agree that she needs time and space to figure a lot of this stuff out...and even though it is going to be horrible to work through this with our young girls, I can see that my W will not have a chance to really examine herself and feel what she needs to feel until she is on her own a bit. I plan on working on me and my stuff, and being a strong, stable, calm, levelheaded father for my girls.

I agree that R with OM is very unlikely to go anywhere...I am not really concerned about him personally as much as in the past (again, other then knowing that while he is in the picture, there is no real chance for her to consider what we might be moving forward)...Life will teach both of us the lessons we need to know and the price we will be paying for this and we will see where that takes us.

So space and time are coming for her at the end of this month...along with life hitting us both hard and fast I assume.