OK... 81 Days

[Denver_2010]

Going to reassess things at the end of August.

I have so much to reply to from my last thread... Thanks to everyone for all of the thoughtful posts. Appreciated as always.

Just f*cking WOW!

Great interaction!

Believe it or not, I respect your W on this. Even with the "affair". (I hate saying that)

Man, she busted you out. She told her feelings. You stated your boundaries. What are you willing to do now? It's your choice.

She's obviously not indifferent towards you.I don't know who you truly are, but she really painted a picture. No she shouldn't have had the affair but at the same time the honesty and where you can be different is a chance in a lifetime.

Personally, I can't give any advice other than Trusting and verifying your own boundary. Don't hold this over her. You had an opportunity to really realize whats important in your life...you chose to fight for her. You decided to change yourself. Can't you "forgive" her if you have "forgiven" yourself. Isn't this the whole purpose as to why you are here? I mean, you have the reality and knowledge of the whole sitch.

Yes Faith, she was very, very honest with me. For the most part, I believe that W has been brutality honest with me during our S. I think that she omitted some truth recently when she told me that she was struggling with issue of OM and that she had started contact with him again, but that is neither here nor there at this point.

LOL... I know that you hate saying that you 'respect' W after the A... me too!

My boundaries? Yes. I stated them very, very clearly. And I am serious about them. I will walk away from this completely if she crosses that boundary. I am finally at a point where I feel strong enough to say that.

You asked me 'can't I forgive her if I have forgiven myself?' ... I still don't know yet Faith. Ultimately, the answer will probably be yes, but I'm not there yet.

I'm pondering Denver...need more time to know what I think about all this but it's a good (albeit frightening) move for sure.

Still pondering 25? You aren't billing me for your time are you?!

You have identified at least 2 things of great importance.


1) You don't know if you can forgive her although you do know if you reconcile, it has to be dropped for good... That's no small feat.
It means letting go of the past, and working "from this day forward"...and if you cannot do it, then she's right. You'll throw it in her face when you fight or hold it over her head in some way, [i]OR she'll think you will...which is just as destructive.

I know 25. I don't see how I could ever possibly bring this up... for myself. I was serious about putting it in a locked box somewhere in my mind. It is something that, eventually, I will need to almost pretend never happened... I do know that I will need to deal with it first... probably in C. One step at a time though.

2) The other thing is you're not sure you want to be with her anyhow. You rightly and honestly say it might just be about winning. Wow, good insight.

Yeah... I sometimes wonder this. But then, I spend time with my W and realize that I love her... even when she is cranky, b!tchy and volatile like she has been in the past week. Maybe I am the crazy one?? (rhetorical question btw)

I really do HATE to lose. I once told my W that 'I do not lose... that is the way that I live my life'... It was a comment I made in a conversation about my job. Of course, she has hung onto it and is now applying it to what is happening bw she and I.

Your w has so much anger still, that I worry if you two reconcile too soon, or don't get the tools you clearly need, it won't work.

That's all I have for now. Thanks for letting us know the situation.

I'm glad she wants to see your D.

I agree. I don't see any real reconciliation for at least 6 months to be honest with you. I mean, just based on the fact that she is going to move to a new place that will at least require a 6 month lease. Bottom line - We need to start going to counseling before we can even think that we are piecing.

We have a long way to go... Unlike before, I recognize this now

I was fully expecting a train wreck, but it looks like you were able to avert that. Good job!

You've already got tons of good advice, but there's one thing that struck me...

And there is a part of me that wonders if I did continue to fight, would it be just to win...
...
I feel that I have evened the footing between W and I ... that I have gained the high ground so to speak.

This ^^^ attitude may doom your efforts if you are not careful. This is something I used to see in myself, having to take the 'high ground'. It leads to a feeling of superiority and my W could sense that in me.

Thanks LP. I agree. I meant that more in the sense that I feel that I can forgive myself a little bit for the things that I did to W during our R/M. That I no longer need to feel that she is justified for crucifying me for my past actions... I guess that I feel that I have suffered enough now.

It's time for us to begin healing... If she doesn't want to get on board with that... well, then I will do it myself... and move on.

But remember Actions speak louder than words, I still see her very weary of returning to the OLD Denver, and honestly I don't blame her.

Just my 2 cents

Wishing U the best...Sunny

Thanks Sunny. I don't blame W either. And I am willing to give her all of the time and space that she needs to figure it out... Just not with OM or any OMs. That is the boundary that I have set, and I plan to stick to it.

The fact that she resumed her A with OM has been a blow to what I have worked for here for 6+ months now.

So her choices have blown all YOUR work?

Denver I have said this for a while for you.

You have always been way too focused on your W.

And the outcome. Which was winning?

Your M is over if you say it is and not becuase of any other reason.

I posted to you that OM sitting on the toilet can run your life and then ruin your life.

It is up to you.

What do you really want?

You have read my thread I know. There is a time when we come though this and we feel less weak, and then stronger and then...

Strong enough.

That is the biggest temptation when you feel you have healed from the body blows.

That is not the end game Denver.

There is more here for you IMO.

The best part of this journey.

BUT also the hardest.

It means letting go of old ways of thinking that are comfortable but reinforce wrong choices for you.

Your best thinking got you both here.

Time for something different?

The ONLY question for you right now is

WHAT DO YOU WANT?

Then don't let anyone take it from you.

P.S. the other women on FB? It's called life boating Denver. You know when the ship is taking on water and instead of helping bail it out you hop on to a life boat and watch and see what happens. Isn't your W doing the same?

My advice? Deactivate your account. That way you want have to be mind reading W's posts and you won't have the OW for you or your W to worry about.

And it will send her a very strong message.

That is of course if you decide you want to save your M.

I am here for me Truegritter. But I've also been here to save my M. I've always maintained that THAT was my #1 goal. I realize that you and others see it differently. But I also see that improving myself is the #1 step to the goal of saving my M. That's just the way that I view all of this.

I do need to decide if I want to save my M now, after everything that has happened.

I can tell you that it has been 9 days since the 'OM on toilet' event and the anger and hurt is already subsiding some... I do have to thank Thatgirl007 and Cat a bit for this... Seeing this from my W's perspective helps me understand... and I think that is my biggest hurdle to forgiveness.

I'm not done yet Gritter.

You have received some excellent advice here Denver. One thing that struck me is when your wife said that you slept on the couch for a long time and didnt want sex from her. I dont know the dynamics behind that but I can see why she would feel wanted by the OM. And that she felt that he needs her like you never did.

Right 9. That is what I'm up against here. My W would never have done this but for my actions during our R/M... and my actions were born out of ego, pride, a sense of being 'right', and a sense of entitlement. And an obvious lack of understanding and sensitivity of my W's feelings.

I really wish that I could explain how and why my actions got so bad... I can't even really explain it myself.

IMO, the OM was merely a symptom and became a "fix " for her, very very much like a drug. You never gave her that feeling of being worthy and the OM put her up high on a pedistal and made her feel like a Queen.

OH YES 9... Talking to my W the other night, I very much realized that this IS like a drug to her. Not the sex... the emotional side of it... the feeling 'good about myself' comment in particular...

I tend to view OM as a virus that attaches to the host... but I digress...

So again, IMO, and I hate to say this Denver cause I have grown to like you alot; you kinda made your bed in this marriage and drove her away. Doesnt excuse the affair but it is understandable to some degree.

It's okay 9... I recongnized that I had made my bed way back in November when she first left me. That hasn't changed. I know.

Thank you for your honesty... that's what I seek here on this board. I don't want anyone to fluff me up. I want to UNDERSTAND my sitch ... so that I don't react out of pure emotion and subjectivity.

As for you and forgiveness. What does it matter that she had sex with him a few more times? She wasnt really with you yet. Forgive her for real and IF this is what you REALLY want because you love her and NOT because its about WINNING, then a few more romps in the hay mean NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING.

YOU are in a great spot now DENVER, if you love her, give her space and she will come back. I feel it.

9

It means nothing 9? Really? I so want to believe that. I really do. I am in an epic internal battle within myself...

My male ego and pride vs. my rational and forgiving side of myself and my love for my W.

Here is where I see cause for concern. I mean Denver made a goal/vow to not bring up OM to himself and to the board. What did do? Keep bringing up OM.

I don't want to be a buzzkill, but just telling her that he won't bring up OM in a fight in the future is meaningless to her. I'd start showing her NOW. No OM talk ever.
You aren't talking to a jury, you can't talk your way into making her believe.

But more to the point. You have to forgive her for YOURSELF. Because regardless of whether you want the M, if you don't deal with it - other than anger- it will follow you around the rest of your life. Without forgiveness you will never let it go.

Normally Harrier I would agree that I shouldn't have brought up OM... especially since I listed not doing so TWICE as a goal.

However, this conversation HAD to happen. Things changed from the time that I set that goal and this convo. I had to clearly state and set this boundary with W... that would have been impossible without bringing up OM.

I am fully prepared to walk away if she crosses this boundary at this point.

Your point on FORGIVENESS? Absolutely right.

This is probably one of the biggest things that I have learned since being here... why forgiveness is important and necessary.

Denver - All I have to say is that I am a little jealous. I would love to have STBX be that open with me instead of her usual half truths and crap. I don't know where you should or will go from here, but that conversation is something many of us will never have. So...be damn proud of yourself.

Thank you so much BTM...

If I may suggest something that you may find useful in your journey?
I have just finished the book " Hold Me Tight" by Sue Johnson, it's been recommended by others here at various times. (Thank you to those who have given out the title before me!)

I have had that book recommended to me, but haven't read it. Thank you Scylla!

Your interactions with your W were great. They were honest and they were thoughtful. One thing after reading what happened is that the two of you are communicating like a typical male and female would. It's time for her to start understanding that.

Thanks Bond. Expected a 2x4 from you for this! LOL...

Also, I do understand about how your years of checking out porn, etc. could be damaging to her, but let's face it. She actually went out and did the thing she was afraid you would do. SHE was the one who went over that boundary. NOT YOU.

Sure with the porn it was a quick fix or whatever, but alot of it was her insecurities of you cheating on her. She was worried about the "fantasy" of you cheating on her. But she was the one who ultimately crossed that line.

You are a person of high value because you are a man of integrity. She has to be the one pursuing you, not the other way around.

Thanks again Bond. As Harrier pointed out, you do know that I'm an attorney, right?? LOL

Not sure what others think of your take that my W was the one who actually crossed the line, whereas I didn't... but, I wonder how valuable it is to assign percentage of blame or negligence?

I tend to agree with you on this Bond... that is my perception ... but W's perception is not that... her perception of reality is the reality that I am dealing with.

Wow-beautifully said. I can see where my H has not jumped on the Recommitment train yet.

Denver, I have been following your post closely. Don't give up-you are allowed to have some second thoughts as you get closer to possible reconciliation (the section on infidelity in DR is really good and discusses this). You have to give yourself some time to really process these emotions or even if she comes back, you will unload on her. I still feel betrayed by the fact that my H has left (and did so while my son was 5months old) and I seem fixated on readdressing this (at least in my head) everytime I interact with him or discuss this with family. I am going to have to let this go if I have any chance of moving forward, whether it is with him or another R.

Hope this helps....I know that no one knows me yet but I have followed all of you and you are doing really well. You are at mile 22-don't give up now....ONly 4 miles to go
Shannon

Hi Shannon. Nice to meet you (in the internet sense). Don't know if I am quite at mile 22... maybe mile 15! But thanks.

You made a point that we need to let go of things in order for us to have a chance to reconcile... this is true. Letting go also means to forgive.

Maybe we both need to take your advice Shannon...

Thank you for keeping up with my thread...

Ah its a shame you needed to talk to her when she shut down your phone. Her ability to keep reeling you back in is working against you.

It happened.

And I am going to disgree spellfire.

With this kind of language. Sorry.

It doesn't help Denver. Instead makes him feel like a piece of sh!t. IMO the man is taking too many of those arrows already.

From his wife.

Women do not like controlling men. They respect and are attracted to men who control themselves. They ultimately are repelled by men who allow themselves to be controlled.

Agree in part. You gonna live your life by what someone finds attractive?

F@ck that!

Sorry. Spellfire this is not directed specifically at you I just wanted to talk about the language that gets bandied (up ^^^^thread) about here regarding what our spouses find "attractive"

Find out who you are and then live it. She doens't find it attractive then she can find some dipsh!t. (which she did)

It has nothing NOTHING to do with Denver's "attractiveness".

It MAY have something to do with the character he may have been showing her and the choices he made, but NOT his "attractiveness".

That is how we feel when we get here. It is a backwards step to focus on it.

After we have looked at ourselves...

After that...making someone feel they are not attractive for any reason is a bunch of crap. Focusing on THAT is a short term solution IMO.

You will be that idiot she left again if you're acting as if you are the "attractive guy".

Based on what empirical evidence? Are you "attractive" ?

Crap.

Real changes = real life.

Anything else is

A popcorn f@rt!

Denver in your own words "center yourself"

Around what?

The whim of a confused WAW?

Or

.....YOU?

Around me Gritter. Around what I want. What is best for me in the LONG run... not out of short term hurt and anger.

I am getting there.

What spellfire said... I tend to agree with your take Gritter. I do respect Spellfire's position on it though. And I get what he is saying.

Saying that it is a shame that I let W manipulate me? That's his opinion. I know my W and my sitch better than anyone here, obviously. I'm okay with any and all opinions on my actions... I take what I want and leave the rest behind.

I KNOW that this conversation HAD to happen.

It was a step forward towards recovery ... for me and my M. A step forward in allowing me to forgive myself and to begin to regain my 'mojo' so to speak.

I have taken a lot of arrows from my W... you are correct Gritter... Arrows here to not begin to approach the pain of those...

Thanks man.

All this advice is for you and whatever YOU choose to take from it. Nothing more, nothing less.

That's exactly right Faith. And when I screw up, all of you can hit me with 2x4s... that's why I am here!

LOL...

[JustStunned]

Denver, I follow your threads. I learn a lot from what gets posted. I find I have very little to add. One thing that stands out for me is the timelines.

IMO this experience is more of a journey than a destination, I understand placing a timeline and check points on the journey. We all want to see progress to our goals. We do need to use care not to become distracted by them. I found this on another site.

"A management team distracted by a series of short term targets is as pointless as a dieter stepping on a scale every half hour."

I cannot cite an example as this is more of a perception from your threads.

[Denver_2010]

"I know what you're going through is tough. And I think you've gotten some really good advice here over all. I just want to chime in from a W's perspective."

I need this more than anything right now TG007. Thank you.

"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than. I even got chills when she talked about the FB issues, because I've been there and done that, bought the t-shirt Of course, my H went a step further and cheated, then left, adding an extra crunchy layer of goodness to my sitch.

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from. "

This is what I need to understand... if I am to forgive her... and I need to forgive her for myself... maybe she is right? She doesn't need forgiveness from me... I still need to do it for me though.

"When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run."

I think that you may be right. I have never understood why she is unable to just 'start over' and put the crap that I did behind her. I'm beginning to understand that I caused severe emotional scars ... that aren't going to heal easily, if at all.

"Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time. And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought. "

That's exactly what my W keeps telling me. I just have trouble understanding this because I am not one to let the words or actions of others hurt me SO badly. So I have a problem relating to the emotional scars that my W has.

Again... this is why hearing these words from you TG007 is so valuable. Thank you again.

"Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality."

My W forgave me time after time after time... and every time she did, she loved me just the same as she always had... and she worked to make our R work just as she always had... you are so right here.

It finally came to the point that she wasn't going to go through it one more time... She was D-O-N-E ...

She also told me that the emotional damage that I caused to her made her believe that she WAS the things that I said she was... a bad mother, not affectionate, not sexual, ... some of which she read into the words used by me... some based upon my actual words.

Bottom line? I treated W poorly out of my own insecurity, my ego, my sense of superiority... I really can't tell you how or why I was so horrible to my W.

It is a regret that I will always live with though... regardless of how this turns out.

"And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to win.

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win."

I was sure that it was NOT just about winning before her renewed A with OM... This time around I feel MORE disrespected... bc we had had 3 months of good time together... 3 months of me showing her that things could be better.

I didn't... maybe still don't ... quite understand why she hasn't been able to forgive me... why she went back to OM after those 3 months.

I am trying... Why? BC I don't believe my W's actions during our S define who she is as a person. I KNOW that she would NEVER have had let another man into her life, even slightly, let alone had an A if I had not made her feel the way that I did.

"Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."

I agree.

Thank you so much for this post TG007.

[Denver_2010]

Above post was in response to Thatgirl007...

[Denver_2010]

Stunned... the timeline is merely for me ... so that I can keep my sanity.

I have been in limbo for over 6 months now. As many here can relate to, I'm sure, it is not pleasant.

What happens at the end of my timeline? WTF knows. It depends on what happens between now and then AND what I want at that point.

The timeline is simply a method that I find helps me get through.

You are right though... it is a journey.

[Denver_2010]

Cat -

"I hesitated to post this because I don't usually get this personal on the boards anymore...

I have to say that Thatgirl's post, helped me to realize exactly why it is I have push you so hard...

You remind me, of my STBXH, in many many ways. Mostly in the way that you made your W feel..."

It is okay. Thank you for your honesty. The perspective that you, 25, and TG007 have offered me over the past month has been invaluable.

Why? BC I NEED to understand my W's perspective... I NEED to understand the depth at which I have hurt her... If I don't, I am doomed to repeat my mistakes... either with W or with someone else.

That is the last thing that I want. Really.

Keep pushing me... keep giving me the truth.

"It may not seem like it, but your W, is giving you an opportunity to really begin to show her that it won't be the same...

You can't show her that by acting superior because you have done some work and you think she hasn't, bullying, smothering, or expecting her to believe you in just six short months..."

Slowly... very slowly... this is getting through my thick skull.

I agree with this... I do.

But... I have to have the boundary that I set with her. You may not agree with it, I don't know. But it is something that I feel that I need to have.

"Trust me, she may not seem like she is doing anything to you but having an A, but it sure seems like she is trying to figure out if she believes that she is really lovable..."

I think that THIS is probably the most accurate statement of my w's actions that has been made... or that I have thought of.

I am literally disgusted with myself when I think of how I put my W in a position where she needed to figure that out.

"It took you a long time to create your end of this mess...

It is going to take her a long time to see that it doesn't have to be the same..."

Yup.

Thanks again Cat.

Denver

[thatgirl007]

Denver, I really do think you are beginning to get some insight into what your wife is going through.

I will say one thing. It's obvious to me that she loves you to death because she cares what you think. She cares that you've found out about her continued interactions with OM. She cares that you've pulled back. She cares about every single thing you do and every word you say. Every action she makes is because of you. You are the still center of her universe.

She does not know how to put herself first properly. The OM is an escape from the way you made her feel for all of those years, but what she doesn't get, is that she never should have allowed you to make her feel that way in the first place. She does not know how to stand on her on own two feet...and she will always be operating out of fear and desperation until she can get to the place where she understands her own value and her own worth - and learns to place herself as a top priority in her own life.

This will not happen overnight - and it definitely will take time if she hasn't even expressed a logical, practical knowledge of her own value.

The very first thing she has done to even begin to move toward figuring it out for herself is asking for the month of June - without any of you - so that she can get out of the emotions of everything and get down to the business of being alone and sorting out her feelings and emotions - about herself.

When she gets to a place where she is never going to let you - or anybody else - mistreat her so fundamentally ever again, when she is strong enough to stand up and say, "Love me, respect me and treat me as if I am of value, or leave me alone", that is the time when she will be back to the reliable, honest, and loving person you knew her to be.

And the very best thing you can do for her - and yourself - is treat her as if she is of worth and value from this moment on. I don't mean to tell her that you believe she is of worth and value, but to treat her as if she is...

[ninelives]

AWesome post TG. Denver , I think you get this but please pay close attention to this post.

Not to highjack and I know Denver wouldnt mind, but that is exactly what I asked my W to do when I found out about her affair with the low life. And thats what she told me she was going to do way back in Feb of 2010, find out who she was and then when I found out about OM, i asked her to not be with eithr of us for awhile till she found out who she was. My wife Denver was not strong enough to do so and that is why I believe your sitch is soo oooooo much better.

When I mentioned to you that another few romps in the hay mean nothing, I didnt mean that it was ok. I just meant that since she has done it before, and she is in junkie mode so to speak, trying to get him out of her system, I dont think you should punish her for having a slip. The end result is she get it out of her system. Now if she commits to the R and does it again, To me, that is a deal breaker. Thats all I meant. Like I said before , try and imagine you are meeting her for the first time and you KNow she had relations before.

I cant tell you how hard it has been for me to see Om's truck in my W's driveway and know that she was having sex with this deuche bag over and over again. I honestly dont know If I could continue but I would have to convince myself that it was something different in order for me to accept it and forgive her.

Perhaps its a little mind game but the stakes are sooooo high. Its bigger than just us, ITs the whole family and its the rest of our lives.

9

[Harrier]

Normally Harrier I would agree that I shouldn't have brought up OM... especially since I listed not doing so TWICE as a goal.

However, this conversation HAD to happen. Things changed from the time that I set that goal and this convo. I had to clearly state and set this boundary with W... that would have been impossible without bringing up OM.

I just want to clarify. I wasn't talking about the convos this week. I was talking about your first set of goals on the 90s days. When OM was brought up in casual conversation.

My point, and you know it, is that the only way to show her you won't bring up OM is to not bring up OM in any context.

It's tricky here because she is scared that you might throw OM in her face. But to show her you wont do it in a fight is to unfortunately -- have a fight. Which no one wants. This requires a lot faith and trust on her part. What she can't give you now.

P.S. I will be in your fair city in a few weeks. I'm finally getting sworn in to be a CO-licensed attorney.

[Denver_2010]

Normally Harrier I would agree that I shouldn't have brought up OM... especially since I listed not doing so TWICE as a goal.

However, this conversation HAD to happen. Things changed from the time that I set that goal and this convo. I had to clearly state and set this boundary with W... that would have been impossible without bringing up OM.

I just want to clarify. I wasn't talking about the convos this week. I was talking about your first set of goals on the 90s days. When OM was brought up in casual conversation.

My point, and you know it, is that the only way to show her you won't bring up OM is to not bring up OM in any context.

It's tricky here because she is scared that you might throw OM in her face. But to show her you wont do it in a fight is to unfortunately -- have a fight. Which no one wants. This requires a lot faith and trust on her part. What she can't give you now.

P.S. I will be in your fair city in a few weeks. I'm finally getting sworn in to be a CO-licensed attorney.

I agree Harrier. I will not be bringing OM up in the future except as it relates to the boundary that I have set.

Too bad you can't look me up while you're here! Congrats on being licensed here though!