H's Sudden Awakening-???

[25yearsmlc]

I don't get it.

You said you wanted 2 months of sobriety and then you'd date him...but you are already dating him?? How many DAYS was it?


what is going on? You're with him but...if he keeps drinking, then what?

...and he IS drinking or isn't? IF he IS...then wth are you doing that's different from your past?


I want to support you, but you're in such a blatant pattern...you don't see this? Or you don't want to?


If I recall my Al Anon days right, you tell them to call/come around after they've done 90 AA meetings in 90 days and

were straight/sober the whole 90 days. You can attend with them IF they want you to go...

Yes I know, your h isn't "comfortable" with AA...oh and he's also never gotten sober either. So you won't enforce the 90 days either??

What will you enforce?




The stories I told you from my childhood were NOT the worst memories or examples of my father's drinking....

nor were the stories of my FIL his worst...

like the time he raped his 1st wife...and didn't remember it the next day.
My h heard it. He was 11.

Or the time fil literally asked his 2d wife how she got the black eye HE had given her the night before...he was mad at whoever had done it, but she said "it was YOU" and he blanched...ooops....

She warned him if he ever hit her again, she'd leave....

2 years later, he did. She left. HE changed. Too bad, too late for their m.

So he began drinking again...of course...and if she'd come back, he would have restarted it anyhow. His history proves that.

Tipper, I don't know what else to say to you.

To me, it's not complicated.

You don't help HIM OR YOU by not enforcing this SIMPLE boundary...


I'm sorry,

but YOUR behavior is TEXT BOOK ENABLER CO-DEPENDENT.

Even To the point of going to the Al Anon meetings and doing all the talk

but not walking the walk.

As the adult child of an alcoholic who heard/saw this cycle about 100 times growing up, I am saddened by this and frustrated. Really frustrated...

You're so textbook! and so NOT helping him...

I didn't hate my dad, I loved him.

As an adult I was strong, healthy and loving enough to NOT be around him when he drank....

so he didn't drink around me. WE actually had a R...he was a decent grandfather and my kids NEVER saw him drunk.

what I did was hard, but it helped my dad, at least some...

what YOU have done so far and are doing NOW, does Not help your h get sober for real...

you allow him to find ways around your boundaries, b/c HE is "different" and "AA won't work for HIM"....hope you know he's not the first

"Special" case to claim that HE has his own way of getting sober...and hey, 1-% of those who recover, do it without AA...but of those, half do it with an alternative program like Promises...

so your h, with NO history of success on this, will get sober the way 1 out of 20 people do...BUT wait, he's NOT sober. He's been at a bar at least twice this week.

You see this as a small slip? If he' done 90 days and THEN "slipped", it's called a slip or relapse. When they've done maybe 2 days sober, it's NOT called sobriety.


and did you say his father drinks "just a few beers" but he's a "recovering alcoholic"? What?
[/u]

...seriously? Have you asked AL Anon or AA about "just having a few"?
[b]
oh--how's your husband dealing with his withdrawal symptoms?

IF he doesn't have any symptoms, then he's NOT sober...

Love is not merely a noun. IT is a verb, requiring action and sacrifice...

"Get sober or lose me"...not complicated...just hard for YOU, b/c you get lonely and call it love.

Sorry if this sounds tough, but it's hard for me to be part of something like this AGAIN in my life...

been there, done that. Hey, Tipper

You have all the answers and support you need to do the right thing.

You're choosing, knowingly, to make excuses for NOT doing the right thing

and I'm not buying it. I'm calling you on it.

[Tipper]

MLC,
I am sorry to upset you or worry you. That is not my intention.

I have DBed for 3 years (he left and came back twice within that time). Now that he left for the 3rd time, I have finally found alanon and I am going to 3-4 meetings a week. Its been very helpful in finding myself and what I want most. I have gained back a lot of self esteem and I realize I am not done with my M.

None of alanons principles say to leave the Alcoholic you love in the dust - they dont give advise. They teach you how to live with and love someone who is actively drinking or not. They teach you to have and find compassion for them because its a disease. They teach you, that no matter what you do (even leaving and threatening a D) will have no effect on their alcohlism because its a disease and we and they are powerless over it. They teach you that the only person that can bring you happiness or sorrow is your own self, I am in control of my own emotions only - as you are of yours. They teach you to look to your Higher power for guidance and to use alanon for the experience strength and hope that comes from the others that are in the group living in the same situations. Many people in my alanon group are living with their alcoholic spouses and making it work, becuase they have the program to help us through those difficult times/crisis that may come up. We all understand, its a DISEASE and that it is ok to still love someone with that disease. It doesnt make them a bad person, even though they may sometimes make bad choices. An analogy they give as an example is that: you would still love your spouse if they had pnemonia, and you would not get mad at them for coughing with that disease, RIGHT???? - So its not any more right for us to get mad at the alcoholic for drinking (which is the symptom of their disease). They also teach us, that we can love an alcoholic, but not enable them anymore by bailing them out of trouble, or accepting degrading situations.

If you have literature from your alanon days, it might help you to go back and look at some of it. Did you do the 12 step work?, that should be a reminder to you that alanon is all about making OURSELVES better people, making amends to those we've hurt, ridding ourselves of our shortcomings, and to stop trying to control anyone else but ourselves -we all have a higher power and WE are NOT it!!!!!!!

My H realizes that he has a drinking problem (as did his father). His Father still drinks 2-3 beers a day,and never more, and he no longer lets it be a PROBLEM. Not many men can do that, but he does it, and Yes, its with out the help of A.A. His mother and father are still happily married and have a very full responsible and respectful life together despite his earlier heavy drinking days previous to 20 YEARS AGO.I feel this guy deserves a pat on the back, not to be put down by others that dont even know him.

Most of the trouble My H has had due to drinking is loosing friends/employees and respect from others for leaving me so many times. He had gone through a bankruptcy from buying too much construction equiptment all at once, about 4 years ago, but thats when his heavy drinking started. Thats also when he left me in a deep state of depression and started pursuing other women (He has never dated any of them). Since then,He has had 3 ALMOST DWI's but got out of ALL 3 of them and was never charged on those occasions. I have not seen him drink and drive in this past three wks of us hanging out and I will not enable it.

The worst thing my H has done in my eyes, has left our M several times. Then only to come crawling back. I know I love him, and I am not ready to give up on my M as your suggesting. Our situation is not great, but it is not merely as bad as your making it sound.

He has not been sober, I have discussed this with my Alanon groups and they have been very supportive of me and helping me realize that I need to not push him to get sober (its fruitless). The more inaction I take on that behalf the better off my mind will be. I can not manage his sobriety. But I do have choices of my own. They are:
-He is not going to move back in until I am ready (We already discussed at least two months - since thats how long he was gone this time).
-I will not ride with him if he is drunk.
-I will not call or pusue him if he is at the bars all week.
-We have our first Marriage counceling appointment set for next wednesday, and he has agreed that we need outside help.
-I am ok with him controlling his drinking (if he ever finds that possible - like his dad does) I can live with that. The Question is just whether or not he will be able to do that.
-I still go to alanon, and dont forsee myself stopping anytime soon and he is ok with that and happy to see me healing.
-I will not avoid awkward situations on his behalf; such as hanging with my family or friends. He has allready gone to several of these types of functions with me and things have gone rather smooth.
-I choose to let go and to let GOD. that means, what ever happens in my life is gods will and not mine. I see gods guidance all around me and its telling me to stand for my M.

I'm not so sure I agree with you calling me text book co-dependent anymore. I can,and have lived on my own. I know I can take great care of myself. I have more of a social life than anyone that I know. I am active with sports and activities of all sorts. I focus on my talents and skills with my art and I am entering a contest in the state fair. I am a woman that can make adult decisions. I am able to state what I want. I am not scared of my own shadow and speaking my mind when its called for.I know I dont need my H in my life - but I want him to be in my life, we bring each other much happiness!!! I dont have to put up with degrading situations, if my H goes back to drinking at the bar every single night, HE KNOWS that I wont be around waiting for him.

Right now, my H has been asking me a lot about the a.a. and alanon programs. He has been awfully curious and I am grateful to see that by not offering to hold his hand and bring him to meetings, he's actully starting to seem interested. I will not push it though. He wants to do the MC and I am grateful for that. I asked at alanon, and found suggestions from many other spouses of active alcoholics that reffered me to a C with much experience on the topic.

One day at a time, I will be fine. I enjoy life too much to not be grateful for everyday I get!!!
TIPPER

[Tipper]

Hey all,
Starting the MC this week for the first time in the 4 yrs of this MLC process. I am excited but nervous. Excited, because H is the one that actually suggested he would like to try it to avoid these break downs happening again in the future. Nervous, because I want to focus on the ways to get healthier and not focus on the past hurts (which I know will end up being brought up so the C can understand how we got there).

I know my H will be very awkward and so will I to let a lot of the past feeling come out. I hope it will be for the best.

We are still living apart, I am going to alanon, and we have been doing lots of fun things- camp, trivia, hanging with friends and family, getting back into watching our season tv seires we used to love, dinners out, He even cooked ME dinner the other night too-(wow its been a while), etc...

The other day, he was apologizing for stinking at getting sober. I told H ,Its ok, & that I know I am not his boss or his keeper or his little "god". He thanked me very seriously and told me how much he appreciates it. I can tell his wheels in his head are spinning about his whole alcoholism/sobriety issue. I will let him keep figuring these things out for himself, as I am patient and loving and keeping the focus on me.

Cant wait for MCounceling on Wed.
TIPPER

[Tipper]

Well, total bummer:
MC got canceled the other day. Waiting to hear about next appointment. Cant get a hold of the councelor.??..But H is still willing, which I find to be a good thing.
TIPPER

[Albuquerque]

None of alanons principles say to leave the Alcoholic you love in the dust - they dont give advise. They teach you how to live with and love someone who is actively drinking or not. They teach you to have and find compassion for them because its a disease. They teach you, that no matter what you do (even leaving and threatening a D) will have no effect on their alcohlism because its a disease and we and they are powerless over it.

Tipper,

I genuinely hope you find the peace you are searching for. But the quote above, especially the part I bolded, is why I think Alanon/AA is a bunch of whooey. And no, I'm not mincing words, and yes, I realize my position on this may be unpopular. But I will tell you why I think that. I apologize if this offends but I hate to see this type of thinking being so prevalent now a days. Who the heck is responsible for anything then?!

Think about it.

You are told to believe that it is a disease.
So H is a victim. And you are a victim of his disease. And he can't do a damn thing about it. And neither can you. And this is supposed to be all OK. No one is to blame and no one can recover. And meetings are supposed to fix it. ????

I think 25 MLC was spot on Tipper. Your response to his post was nothing but pure rationalizations about your behavior. I hope you wake up and really read what he had to say. Your H has a problem. He is not powerless, he is weak. And you, by supporting his weakness, are doing nothing to fix the situation you keep finding yourself in. I support your efforts to DB. I support your patience with him. I too, know how we often have to deal with MLC behavior that is less than ideal. But we also have to stand for ourselves. And if you do not want to be with a man who has a drinking problem (which I support) then DO NOT be with a man who has a drinking problem.

MLC,
I can not manage his sobriety. But I do have choices of my own. They are:
-He is not going to move back in until I am ready (We already discussed at least two months - since thats how long he was gone this time).

Sounds good. Except there is no mention of NOT moving back if he's still drinking excessively.

-I will not ride with him if he is drunk.

Ok great, but will you call the cops on him in order to protect the lives of the innocent drivers on the roads?! Of all your statements, this one is the one that scares me the most.

-I will not call or pusue him if he is at the bars all week.

What do you define as all week? 2/7 days? 4/7 days? How much time a week does he need to be sober before you'll consider him "good". This is not a boundary, this is a cop out.

-We have our first Marriage counceling appointment set for next wednesday, and he has agreed that we need outside help.

As I've said to many folks, I'm not in favor of MC for MLC nor for substance abuse issues...UNTIL....the MLC or substance abuse issues have been dealt with separately. You can't reason with a drunk, druggie, or MLCer until they are healthy enough for an adult relationship. Yes, that's purely my opinion and others may disagree.

-I am ok with him controlling his drinking (if he ever finds that possible - like his dad does) I can live with that. The Question is just whether or not he will be able to do that.

He will always be in control of his drinking. I'm not sure what you mean by that. He will always be the one to decide whether he wants a drink or not. I agree that having a drinking problem does not mean that you cannot have a single drink once your are recovered. And yes, you are right, the question is whether he will be able to drink responsibly. So where is your boundary here exactly?

-I still go to alanon, and dont forsee myself stopping anytime soon and he is ok with that and happy to see me healing.

Maybe this is harsh but who cares if he is happy to see you healing? He knows the issue is his drinking and he has made virtually no steps towards fixing that issue.

-I will not avoid awkward situations on his behalf; such as hanging with my family or friends. He has allready gone to several of these types of functions with me and things have gone rather smooth.

I'll restate my "if you don't want to be with a man who drinks too much, stop being with a man who drinks too much". Why are you doing so many activities with a broken man and pretending that it's OK?

I've followed your story Tipper. I truly wish you the best. You are a "veteran" here and do not need any lessons on MLC. But we all need a kick in the head every so often to help us see beyond ourselves. I think 25MLC was spot on and I hope you can take some of his words to heart. I'm not usually quite so harsh but his post and your response struck a chord in me and I had to say my peace. I know you're strong and can take this post with the respect and concern in which it was sent.

[Queen_of_Swords]

You are told to believe that it is a disease.
So H is a victim. And you are a victim of his disease. And he can't do a damn thing about it. And neither can you. And this is supposed to be all OK. No one is to blame and no one can recover. And meetings are supposed to fix it. ????

Totally agree.
Most alcoholics have at least two other addictions including the booze.
They can kick the booze and then develop yet ANOTHER adiction to replace the one to alcohol.

They choose these addictions to numb out or self soothe.

[Andabelle]

When AA says the alcoholic has no control over the disease, it means that he is constitutionally incapable of drinking "socially"-- the only option he has if he wants control his drinking is to stay the flock away from booze altogether. AA is all about taking responsibility. No cop-outs aloud.

[Tipper]

Thanks all for stopping in. I appreciate all your thoughts.

Still no MC done or scheduled.
I respect all of you and I am not dismissing what 25yearsMLC said.
Heres the thing. I have worked for 4 yrs to save this M from a D. I am not willing to just give up on it becuase others say I should. I am standing for my M for today. Who knows how I will feel tommorow or the next day - or next year....Time will tell.

I love my H, even as a Drunk. I hate some of his choices. But I am not quitting yet. I am the only one that can decide that. I have slowed down our Dating drastically this past two weeks only seeing my H 2times and possible tonight for dinner. I am doing this so that I can focus on me. I need to be and feel healthy right now and catch up on many things in my busy life. So, H and I have slowed things down and I feel it gives him more time to think, think about all the reality of our sitch. Some drunks do recover and turn to A.A. I really still have that hope that my H will too. If or untill that time comes Or until I cant take any more - I am still standing. My emotions are finally getting to a point where I dont obsess over him every day and worry about him - now I consentrate only on Me and my Life and My future. I am happier. I am more confident and I have told H that I dont need to be with him, I just want to be with him. SO we will see what the future will hold. I am not afraid of getting hurt worse. Becuase, I know there is no worse than the way I felt in the past. I reached my bottom long ago and I am now on the way up and healing. A divorce is about all I have left to fear, and if even that were to end up happening - I know I will be fine and dandy and my life would probably be much easier without my H, but definetly it would still be sad as any and all D's are in my opinion. I know I would hurt for as long as I needed to feel the pain, get over it, and pick myself up - dust myself off - and start over. My hopes and dreams are of making my M last and work. I have faith that something wonderful and beautiful could still come out of our R with time. So I leave it to God, and in the meantime I am enjoying life.

This weekend I am going camping with 2 of my best girl friends. It shall be interesting and exciting, no guys coming to help us damsels so it will also be empowering. I just pray the black bears leave us and our food alone.
Peace all, I'm Out.
TIPPER

[WCW]

Tipper, you are very right when you state you are the only one that can decide when or if you quit. Just be sure you are staying M for the right reasons.

I hung on to my 1st M because I simply did not want to be labeled a divorced person for the rest of my life. Finally the last straw was thrown at me and I filed.

I hung on to my 2nd (and current) M because I never stopped loving my H.

Hope you have a great camping trip! Stay safe!

[braveheart]

Tipper, you are right, its your choice to stay or leave. Its also your H's choice to choose between you and the booze. Please don't loose sight of this.