Please read and give me any feedback that you can. I know that this is long. I'm sorry.
Unfortunately, this update isn't nearly as positive that i'd like it to be.
After weeks of moving closer to me, W has pulled away some over the past 8 days or so.
W and I have continued daily contact and have still hung our almost every day.
There is a lot to write about, so I will try to hit the main events, conversations and statements as well as I can.
Friday April 1st - W and I went out drinking. Ended up in a long conversation a about R. Subject of OM came up and I wasn't able to hold back my contempt. I explained to my W how OM was a vulture and had preyed on her during a time when she was emotionally vulnerable. W stated that "I might agree with you in 20 years, but right now I don't." She ended up defending him by saying that she didn't have anything bad to say about him and that he is a really nice guy. She told me, "I hate that I have to feel that I have to defend OM with you, but I feel like I do."
My bad. I f'd up here. I NEED to stop engaging in conversation about OM. And I certainly need to stop criticizing him with W. I know that I am doing it bc I have this need to try and convince my W to agree with my feelings on the subject. This is not going to happen and I need to just accept it. This behavior only puts my W and OM on the same team, in opposition of me. Not conducive to my goals, and not in line with the 180's and life changes that I have worked so hard to achieve.
The conversation got heated, and I did have to walk away to cry a bit and get myself together. I ended up taking W to the house that she is renting. This was the first time that she has let me know where she lives. I walked her in and left.
We had a very good rest of the weekend. Took SS to Rockies game on Saturday night and to an Avalanche game on Sunday night. We had a great time.
Tuesday April 5th - SS has serious issues with school. He has an IEP and has been determined to have severe emotional disability. He is in his first year at his middle school and has struggled all year. The school had a meeting regarding some recent suspensions and I had told W that I would go with her if she wanted me to. Before our S, I was very involved with these meetings, but W stopped having me go when she left.
W decided that she wanted me to go to this one, which seems to indicate that she is welcoming my involvement in SS's life again. It was 2 1/2 hours of listening and fighting with school administrators about how they are not meeting SS's needs. This is another story, but the point is that I took the point bc I am a lawyer and have become familiar with the laws protecting children with IEPs. W is at her wits end with the schools and is under a tremendous amount of stress just trying to get her son an education.
After this meeting, W and I had to rush to our MC session. I told MC that I was feeling a bit down bc I don't have any security in the R with W. That I am trying to be patient and understanding, but that it has been wearing on me.
W listened to what I had to say and then went into how she is hesitant about what is going on with us. How she has not had time to process everything. That the past several weeks has been a whirlwind for her. How she doesn't feel that she has let herself really think about what is going on... that she has just let herself get caught up in spending time with me, which she has enjoyed. But that she has recently (past few days) been thinking that she isn't sure about anything and needs to process her feelings.
MC looked at me and said, 'you must feel like you don't know what you should do. Damned if you do, damned if you don't'. I agreed by saying that I feel like W is saying that I am smothering her, but that if I back off, then I will appear to be the same guy that she left.
In response, W said that she was not saying that I was smothering her. That she understands the 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' feeling. That what she is saying is that she just feels that she needs to take the time to process things, not that I need to do anything differently. MC even asked her, 'what do you want Denver to do?' W said that she didn't want me to do anything different.
Very confusing stuff.
In the course of all of this, the subject of the OM came up. W told MC that part of the hesitancy that she feels comes across when she asks herself 'why give Denver another chance?'. She said that she wonders if she is making the right decision to take a risk on me, and leave behind the chance with OM who treated her and SS so well. That sometimes, she feels torn.
But... that I feel like home to her... that she has always loved me... that she has invested 8 years in us and feels that she should give us a chance to work now that I have made so many substantial changes.
W also said that she feels like she is getting to know a completely different person (me) with all of my changes. And that she thinks that she is different too. That even though things were not good bw us before she left, that there was something that seemed to work with our R the way that it was. That she wonders if it will work now that we have both changed. (TALK ABOUT DAMNED IF YOU DO, DAMNED IF YOU DON'T!)
I was upset after the MC session and was very quiet on the drive home. I apologized for being quiet and W said that she understood that I was hurt by some of the things that were said.
When we got home, we talked for about 20 minutes before she got in her car and left. She reiterated that she does not feel like I am smothering her and that she just wants me to be myself and continue doing the things that I am doing... no changes as far as contact etc.
She brought up that she just isn't sure about moving back into the house at the end of May (when her lease is up). That she feels that maybe she is rushing things for both her and SS. That she had conversation with SS and that SS is also unsure about moving back in. That SS wants to move in bc he loves me and bc I have been in his life for a long time. But that he also likes the idea of it being just him and W. And also became close to OM and so doesn't understand why OM can't be in his life if I am.
We talked about the wall that W has up with me and how she is having a hard time letting it down. I told her that is why I suspected that she has a difficult time telling me that she loves me when I say it to her. She said that is right.
I told W that I was upset bc it seemed that this night was a step back for 'us'. She said that she didn't look at it that way. That she thought it was just part of the process.
Lastly, we talked about her moving back into the house. She said she just can't see herself moving back into the house. That it is different for her bc she moved out, I didn't. That she started a new life and it is just 'weird' for her. But, then she said that sometimes she can see herself moving back in. She has considered maybe we could sleep in different beds for a while... and she has considered that maybe she could get a cheaper place on a month to month lease for a while. I told her that I would accept whatever she decides and that I am going to be patient. I even asked her if she wanted to go look for apartment... that I would help her. She said 'no' that she is just leaving the option open for now.
The next 2 days, I cut back on contacting W... I let her initiate contact, which she did both days. We didn't see each other on Wednesday ... and only for a minute on Thursday as she dropped SS off at our house. She had a show on Thursday night. She did call me on her way home and then again when she was safely at her home.
Friday - W and I had planned for me to go with her to her show on this night. We met up at our house. Before heading up to her show (casino in the mountains) we met one of her friends at a bar and ate some dinner. Had a good time watching W's show. We stayed away from R talk on both the drive up and the drive home.
Saturday - Hung out with W while SS had a drum lesson. We went to have coffee while waiting. I was quiet bc I was stuck in thought about everything going on with our R. I am losing patience and it was getting to me while she and I were sitting drinking our coffee. W commented that I seemed quiet. I told her that I was just tired from being out so late the night before.
After SS's drum lesson, we went to eat. I snapped out of being bothered. We had a nice meal and then I took them home. W had the same show up in the mountains and wanted to take a nap before heading up. I went to run some personal errands.
I was had planned on hanging out with SS while W was at her show. W's friend was suppose to go up with her.
While I was running errands, W texted me to ask if the reason that I was quiet was bc she had not invited me to go up with her to her show again... but that she had not bc she knows that I don't like her friend. I responded that I would always like to go to her shows, but that was not why I was quiet. That I wasn't upset by the lack of the invite.
SS ended up being invited to spend the night at one of his friend's house... and W's friend backed out of going with her. W texted me and asked, "do you want to go?" ... I responded, "do you want me to go?" ... W said 'sure!' ... I then said, "just want to make sure that you want me to go. I feel paranoid about smothering you." W responded, 'pick you up at 9?' ... I said, 'sounds good'...
We got to the venue for her show early and had a drink at the bar. W said to me, "I thought that you wanted to stay the night up here one of these nights while I had these shows?' ... I had told her a couple of weeks ago that we could stay the night so that she didn't have to drive back and forth 3 nights in a row. .. W had considered it as a possibility at the time, but didn't bring it up, so neither did I. So I responded, 'I did, but you never brought it up. And besides, you won't even stay with me at our house' ... I kind of laughed when I said this. W said, 'I know. I won't stay in our house as a guest. I just won't. It seems weird. Like I am just some girl that you met.'.... I said, 'but you are not just some girl... you are my W... It is not weird for me at all... but I also understand how you feel.'
Then, somehow, we got into conversation about her moving back into the home. W told me again, but this time with a little more certainty, that she just doesn't think that she will be ready to move back into the home by the end of May. I again told her that was fine if that's what she decided.
No more R talk on Saturday night. W had her show and we drove home. Good conversation.
Today...
Had lunch with SS and W. Then took SS shopping for W's birthday while she got a massage. We then went to eat.
For some reason, I was again extremely bothered as we sat and ate. I got really quiet bc I was just thinking about everything that W has said over the past week.
After we ate, SS went outside the restaurant to do what 12 year old boys do... lol... W turned to me and said, 'you are acting weird'. I said, 'just quiet'. W then says, 'we have too much of this.' I said, 'what do you mean?' ... W: 'this was always part of our problem... we'd sit and just not say anything to one another... I don't want this to be my life' ...
I immediately realized that I had reverted into some bad behavior. I apologized. I then told W that I was just upset and that i was feeling impatient with things. We talked a little, but W was clear upset and maybe even a little irritated. She began to tear up at one point. This was clearly bc she is confused about how she feels and is feeling pressured about making some decision on our M/R. I apologized again ... told her that I know that my impatience was about me... that I know that this is not going to happen on my timeline ... She told me that I hadn't done anything wrong, but that she just isn't sure about things. I'm obviously paraphrasing a lot here.
I took W and SS back to where they are living and went home.
W called a little later to tell me that she wasn't mad. We spoke for about 90 minutes. W again talked about not being sure about what she is doing. That things have happened so fast. That she feels that she is rushing herself with her lease ending in May. That she is still processing. That she has gone from leaving me and being DONE, to dating somewhen when she had no plans to do so, to reconnecting with me, to ending her R with OM when the only reason for that was to see if we would be able to work things out.
There was lots of talk about OM and how he made her feel like she had always wanted me to make her feel. How she cut things off with him and thought that wouldn't be as hard on her as it has been. That it has been an 'adjustment' for her.
She reiterated her concern that she is taking a chance on me and walking away from the possibility that OM presents, or the possibility of meeting someone else completely. That she just isn't sure.
This conversation was very hurtful to me, so it is very much a blur. At one point, I told W that maybe we should just take some time apart and not talk so that she can figure things out... W kind of just ignored this suggestion.
At another point, I told W that maybe she should just reengage OM and figure out what she wants to do with that R before we consider anything else bw she and I. I told W that it seemed that she is reluctant to completely let go of her 'plan B' and that as long as that was there, it was going to be very hard for us to move forward. Again, W just kind of ignored the suggestion.
At the end of the conversation, I asked W if she wanted me to do anything differently, if she wanted me to stop calling and hanging out. She laughed a little and said 'no... that she had already told me that I am not doing anything wrong.' VERY F'ing Confusing.
Jumping back in the conversation a bit... W told me that sometimes she can't believe that my changes are for real and wonders what will happen after my 'challenge' of getting her back is gone... if I will go back to being the way that I was. I told her that this won't happen bc my changes have been for me. Bc I decided months ago that I don't want to live my life as I was living it before she left.
I asked her if she had watched MWD's video on the WAW that I sent her a month or so ago. She said that she had and that it seemed like it was almost dead on with what happened with us. But her question was how WAW's who give their H's a chance to show the significant changes that can happen do it.
W went on to say how she had to push her 'in love' feeling so far down in order to gain the strength to leave, that she doesn't know how to get those back. She wonders if WAW's who return to their M's get those feelings back or just accept that they are gone and then just end up being unhappy anyway... even though their H's have changed. W then admitted that she still does not feel 'in love' with me. That she is processing if she can find those feelings again.
I asked W what made her fall in love me 8 years ago. She told me that it was how I made her feel safe, my smile, and that I made her laugh. I then asked her if I no longer have a nice smile... jokingly.
I told W that I understood what she was saying. That I wasn't going to try and 'convince you' with words. That I thought that she just needed to let her walls down, but that I didn't want her coming back to me bc I 'convinced you'.
I told her that I will be fine however this turns out. That I still viewed her leaving me as the best thing that has ever happened... to me and for our M. That I now know how to love and be loved, know that I want to be married, and that I think that I know how to be a good H. That if it is not with her, that it will be with someone else. I reiterated that I wanted desparately for it to be with W, but that I will be okay either way.
W then said that she doesn't know how to take that... that in one way it sounds like I don't need her in my life. I said that wasn't the case, that I do need and want her in my life. But that I know what I want and am going to find it if she decides that things aren't going to work for us.
I told W that I believe that we have an opportunity that most couples do not... That someday we will be able to look back on what we have gone through and know that it made our M strong. That going through this will make our M stronger than we had ever hope that it would be.
This is when I asked w if she wanted me to stop contacting her and she laughed and said that she didn't want me to change anything.
W said, 'I think that we just need to keep having these conversations'.
So, the bottom line is W is struggling with letting OM go completely bc she is unsure about whether we can make our M work. She is not in love with me right now, and wonders if she can find the place where she put those feelings when she gathered the strength to move out. That W is now leaning towards not moving back into the house at the end of May, but instead thinking of finding another place on a month to month basis.
Bottom line is for me... I am frustrated and impatient. I am beginning to wonder if this is worth it. I am beginning to wonder if there is some 'life crisis' characteristics to my sitch. I am beginning to wonder if it is possible that a R can just get so damaged that it can never be repaired.
And I am confused. W spends time with me almost every day. She says that she enjoys talking to me and spending that time with me. That she fears losing me if she makes the wrong decision. That she loves me and always has... and that I feel like 'home' to her.
I just don't know friends... I am emotionally exhausted... I am sad ... and there is a part of me that feels like giving up. I have a huge trial where a man's life is at stake in 1 week and all I want to do is crawl into bed, cry and sleep.
Sorry that this post isn't the 'inspiration' that it has been in recent weeks... and I'm sorry that I am not going to go back and edit it...
BITS Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
I admit I only read about 1/2 thru. I'll read the rest later. Even I need a break from this "I'm not sure" stuff.
My advice is to go dark as much as you can. Let her wonder why you are not calling, not jumping to be with her. She has you walking on eggshells now and she is quite comfortable with it. You need to get off the eggshells. When she knows what she wants to do, she can call you. You don't need to go every day to hear this "I don't know" business.
I admit I only read about 1/2 thru. I'll read the rest later. Even I need a break from this "I'm not sure" stuff.
My advice is to go dark as much as you can. Let her wonder why you are not calling, not jumping to be with her. She has you walking on eggshells now and she is quite comfortable with it. You need to get off the eggshells. When she knows what she wants to do, she can call you. You don't need to go every day to hear this "I don't know" business.
Tell me about Lotus. Very frustrating. I have considered your suggestion on backing off, but wonder if that is just the response that she expects from me... that it will only validate her concerns about me reverting back to previous behavior, ie, anger, silent treatment, withdrawal from R...
Yes... she has me on eggshells. No doubt.
BITS Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
OK, I finished it, and I still say the same thing. You are pursuing and she is putting distance between you two. Stop pursuing. She is likely to come after you. If she doesn't, well then, you have your answer.
No, I don't think she is trying to make you back off. I think she is trying to maintain the status quo -- she is invulnerable, and you are kissing her @$$. Perfect situation. Why change it?
But for you, it's not perfect. It [censored]. So you need to change it. You need to become the mystery man. You know, the lawyer you are trying to reach, but he is so wrapped up in a case you can't get him? You need to show her that you have a life. You've been telling her that. But you haven't been showing her that, and that is the danger pursuing. You've said your piece. Several times. So walk away. Get busy. Defend that guy. Let her feel the need for you.
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
No, I don't think she is trying to make you back off. I think she is trying to maintain the status quo -- she is invulnerable, and you are kissing her @$$. Perfect situation. Why change it?
But for you, it's not perfect. It [censored]. So you need to change it. You need to become the mystery man. You know, the lawyer you are trying to reach, but he is so wrapped up in a case you can't get him? You need to show her that you have a life. You've been telling her that. But you haven't been showing her that, and that is the danger pursuing. You've said your piece. Several times. So walk away. Get busy. Defend that guy. Let her feel the need for you.
Well, I don't really have much of a choice. Unless I want to lose my career along with everything else. I know that you are right and have been considering this myself over the past several days.
Originally Posted By: Lotus
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
No. W won't stay at our house bc it is 'weird' and she doesn't want to stay in 'our house as a guest'.
But, she brought up staying at the hotel/casino last night. SS was going to be home early this morning, so the thought of staying was only in passing.
I think that W is trying to protect herself emotionally here with this issue. I agree, sex could be huge in breaking down the wall. I think that W knows this too. But, I think that she is afraid.
Thanks Lotus.
BITS Denver
M 43 X 38 T 13 W moves out of home 11/2010 Roller coaster from hell 2/2011-5/2012 I request divorce 5/2012 W moves home 6/2012 Good time 7/2012 - 1/2015 I leave 3/2016 process of divorce
I completely empathize with your sitch. Your W seems very torn. She is liking the changes she sees in you, but is afraid they are not legit. I know how frustrating it is to have to hear that. I hear that from my H all the time.
IMO I think you are doing great. As hard as it is to be upbeat and positive, you are doing everything you can to validate her feelings and let her know that you understand.
As hard as it is, maybe you do need to back off a little bit and let her miss you. I know that you don't want her to think that you don't care, but maybe it will give her the opportunity to really miss you.
"Everyone you meet has baggage. Find someone who loves you enough to help you unpack." ¤Formerly DelinquentGurl¤
I admit I only read about 1/2 thru. I'll read the rest later. Even I need a break from this "I'm not sure" stuff.
My advice is to go dark as much as you can. Let her wonder why you are not calling, not jumping to be with her. She has you walking on eggshells now and she is quite comfortable with it. You need to get off the eggshells. When she knows what she wants to do, she can call you. You don't need to go every day to hear this "I don't know" business.
Totally agree with this, Denver. ^^^
Not only is your "eggshell-walking" not working for YOU, but it's making you look needier than I know you want to appear.
No, I don't think she is trying to make you back off. I think she is trying to maintain the status quo -- she is invulnerable, and you are kissing her @$$. Perfect situation. Why change it?
But for you, it's not perfect. It [censored]. So you need to change it. You need to become the mystery man. You know, the lawyer you are trying to reach, but he is so wrapped up in a case you can't get him? You need to show her that you have a life. You've been telling her that. But you haven't been showing her that, and that is the danger pursuing. You've said your piece. Several times. So walk away. Get busy. Defend that guy. Let her feel the need for you.
I don't remember if you have broken the sexual drought with her yet. I'd say your goal should be to get back to lovemaking, not getting her to move in. Sex can break down fortress walls.
DING DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!
1000% agree with this, Denver. You -- much like myself -- are a man of many WORDS. You need to cut back 90% on the words, and just work on your ACTIONS. You can't litigate your way out of this dilemma.
