......are these itty bitty baby steps?

[Mila]

GAG - I marvel at your patience in all of this. You are not only patient, but analytical, methodical and persistent....and you have done some amazing work rebuilding your relationship with XH. It's all a result of your efforts...it wouldn't happen on it's own...Of course we don't know how it's going to turn out in the end...but if anybody deserves success it's you GAG, you are a very special lady

[courageous wife]

What Mila said!!!

[goodattitudegirl]

Journaling………………

Just got back from lunch with X-SIL and need to journal so that I can process what happened. I’m suiting up in my hockey goalie uniform since I’ll probably be getting 2 x 4s for some of the stuff I said to X-SIL. The thumbnail sketch for today’s outing is that X-SIL was VERY tight-lipped about XH. I got no additional insight from her into what is going on in XH’s world……….and that’s fine. The purpose for the lunch date was to visit with X-SIL. We have grown closer over the last 1½ years as we’ve begun to communicate with each other directly and become GFs.

XH dropped X-SIL off at the house at the appointed time and drove away. He didn’t come to the door and we didn’t see each other. X-SIL said XH had “things to do”. The house smelled great with fresh bread in the oven. Told X-SIL it was my first time making this recipe and gave her some to take back to XH’s with her. She brought my Christmas present with her, saying she had left it with XH to give to me in December, but for some reason XH gave me part of HIS Christmas present by mistake (confused alien mind……..duh!). I in turn gave her the book “The Five Love Languages” by Gary Chapman. Told her that I’d read about 18 books about Rs over the past 2 ½ years and that this was one of the best and a favorite of my D support group (didn’t tell her about DB’ing, just referred to this forum as my D support group). She seemed interested and said that it was probably time for her and her H to go through a book like this again. She said they’d read a John Gray book together when they first got M’ed and it really helped them to communicate about some important issues. She said that she and her had gotten to a point where they were living parallel lives and recently had begun to make more of an effort to reconnect. ………..This led to a conversation about the cycles that Rs go through and how it’s normal to have highs and lows in Rs. X-SIL said she and her H went through a low point at 7 years of M (they are at 14 years now) when she thought about leaving (this is her 4th M) but she stuck it out and feels the rewards are worth it, particularly at this stage of life.

The conversation flowed naturally into a discussion of Rs and M. I told her that I have been working to learn more about what makes a R/M successful, shared some of the things I’d learned about how I contributed to problems in my R/M with her brother, and told her what I’d learned about changes in brain wiring and chemistry that occur when there is trauma in childhood and how that sets people up to have difficulties with intimate Rs (she is interested in this because she has been struggling with those consequences in her Rs and her H’s father was also an alcoholic). Told her that science has shown that dopamine (the neurochemical linked to addiction) is elevated in response to novel stimuli (e.g. new opposite sex Rs) but it’s physiologically impossible to sustain dopamine highs for long periods of time, so if people need that high they often find another R to give them that high again. Told her what Daniel Amen says about how novelty is critical to maintaining a man’s happiness in a long-term R.

We talked about the dynamics in her family of origin and how XH is really close to their mother. I told her that I was surprised that XH is now kissing his mother on the lips because he had never done that before. She said “Yes! He has been kissing mother on the lips, kissing me on the lips, and other friends on the lips and that just makes me feel weird!” (this is not something their family ever did when I was part of the family, so this is a change in XH post-bomb --------it also makes me think that the kiss on the lips reciprocated by XH before Christmas probably wasn’t much of a big deal after all……).

We talked about X-SIL’s R with her H during the course of this convo and so to illustrate some of the points that I was sharing with her from the work of Daniel Amen and Louis Cozolino I talked about my R with XH in a way that I haven’t shared with her before. I did not offer judgment one way or the other about XH’s actions, just told X-SIL about a few things that had transpired between XH and me. The main points I shared with her were:
 X-SIL was showing me a pile of photos from her childhood and we were talking about their childhood so I told her that H/XH had became very depressed about 2 months after we took a trip to their childhood home and haunts on a Thanksgiving visit to their state (this was 3 years ago and 6 months pre-bomb). Told her that H/XH wouldn’t talk to me about it, so I left him alone to work it out. She said she didn’t know that.
 I told X-SIL that XH had given me no specific warning that he was unhappy with our M before he left. I said all I knew was that he complained that I worked too much. Said that in hindsight I know I should have asked him if that jeopardized our M but always thought H/XH would tell me if that was happening.
 I told X-SIL that it took 6 months for H/XH to tell me why he’d left (he felt abandoned by me). I told her that in that same conversation with XH (6 months post-bomb) I told H/XH I thought he had told BMF, but not me, about his unhappiness in the M. H/XH looked kind of sheepish and said to me “You’re probably right about that”. (X-SIL looked surprised at that.)
 Told her that when I asked H/XH why he didn’t want to work on the M he said “I don’t know why I don’t want to work on the M and I don’t know if I’ll ever know why”. I told X-SIL that I think XH is afraid of intimacy and his childhood demons and that is why he was afraid to work on the M.

Over the past 2 ½ years I never told X-SIL any of these details because I was trying to be a good DB’er. Now as more time is passing and I see XH still in the tunnel, I find myself growing less patient and because these points flowed naturally from the conversation I let them out today.

X-SIL is VERY tight-lipped. She told me that she doesn’t talk to her brother about his life (I take this to mean she doesn’t tell him what to do) and I know her well enough to know that she is not going to tell him word for word about our conversation, but it is possible that bits and pieces will come up in conversation with him in the future.

X-SIL and I were together about 3 hours and enjoyed chatting very much. At the 3 hour mark both she and I received VMs from XH on our cell phones. Phones were on vibrate mode so we didn’t see the VM until 10 minutes later. XH then texted X-SIL that he had been sitting outside his house in his car for ½ hour waiting for her to return from lunch so that they could go visit their mother together. She called him on his phone and he was NOT a happy camper. We were both confused about why XH would be waiting in his car on a winter day rather than waiting inside his house. I told her that I had observed over the past several months that XH wasn’t as good at communicating with friends and family as he thinks he is. I said I hoped that they would have a chance to really communicate during this visit. When we pulled up to XH’s house, he was sitting in his car waiting. X-SIL got into his car and he pulled away from the curb and raced down the street, squealing his tires as he went. XH was throwing a temper tantrum in his hot little convertible……..Funny thing is, this is the second time this scenario has happened with our little trio in the same situation (lunch date with X-SIL). Both times I didn’t ask what time X-SIL needed to be done with lunch and since no one told me “X-SIL has to be back at such-and-such-a-time” I didn’t think there was a time constraint. X-SIL didn’t tell me there was a time constraint so I don’t think she was aware of a time constraint either. XH had a big temper tantrum. That’s weird because in all the time that we were together, I never saw him lose his temper. I thought he’d been peeking out of the tunnel but apparently he’s still in there……………..I’m frustrated. Thank you all for letting me debrief about this.

GAG

[dolphin_05]

HI GAG,

I'm not surprised that Mr. GAG did not come to the door; this is not his normal pattern and as a 'first' he would probably need to do that alone. Being with his sister and coming to the house would likely give an impression of contact between you and he's probably just getting used to the idea himself let alone giving this information away to someone else. I think Mr GAG is doing this reconnecting stuff on his own terms and in his time.

I wonder if H feels uptight about you and his sister catching up, thinking that perhaps he is topic of conversation?? It seems possible given this is the second outburst related to you three. Perhaps XH thought he told his sister a time and he was ready to go thinking she'd be punctual.

I can imagine your frustration but I think you just disregard your observations and carry on in the positive way you have been moving of late.

Take care GAG,

Cas

[courageous wife]

I can imagine your frustration but I think you just disregard your observations and carry on in the positive way you have been moving of late.

I agree with Cas!

Don't let what happened today get you down! He threw a little tantrum today...who knows why really! Maybe his sis indicated a certain time frame...who knows? Go back and re-read the last few interactions with your xh! They have been very positive!

(((GAG)))

[dolphin_05]

Yes good idea CW, read and re-read those posts GAG

[Mila]

GAG - I wouldn't worry about the temper tantrum, I personally don't think that XH was upset with you, but more with his sister...kind of a sibling thing...and as you know most guys hate waiting and get really pissy when they have to. I'm sure that when you meet for TT next time, he won't even remember it.

Glad that you had a good lunch with X-SIL

[Lost Rabbit]

Mmm tantrums eh?

Good sign, getting frustrated with waiting, well you all think Sis maybe, maybe not?

Sometimes leaving them wanting more is good for them..

Example 1: Mr Rabbits first visit home,
(I thought I was gonna hear about a OW)

I went out for supposed lunch not waiting at doorstep (coffee round friends)
I look "hot to trot" when I returned an hour later
I left pink flower bouquet on cabinet (room is orange and I dont do pink)
I left Mr Rabbit twiddling his thumbs and chatting with the cat
I had no food in the fridge so Mr Rabbit had to take me out for dinner

Example 2

Mr Rabbit had decided to go home on Sunday morning..
On waking he suggested we go to garden centre, lovely morning, on drive home it became apparent Mr Rabbit was squirming with his decision, did I try and alter it NO! Kissed him quick, wished him a safe journey and hopped out of car quick.
Left Mr Rabbit wanting to be there with me even more lol!

Occasionally it doesnt hurt..

On the other hand now Mr Rabbit is insitu, I always jump up and greet him at the door for a kiss, and also make him feel welcomed home!

Keep going girl!

[christianhusband]

Hi GAG. CourageousWife suggested I connect with you. Tried sending you a PM but I got an error that it was disabled. Hope you get this. You can read about my latest here:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...667#Post2133667

I was asking about the effectiveness of getting a DB coach. My initial thought is it seems futile given that everything is final. There is no more D to bust. But I am also seeking healing in the relationship. CW said you have used DB coaching and may be able to offer some insight. Looking forward to hearing back from you.

[goodattitudegirl]

Thank you MHL, Cas, Mila, and Rabbit for checking in. Sorry I haven’t been able to respond to your posts from the last several days until now. I have been GAL’ing and taking care of things around the house. CHB, I replied to you on your thread.

Updating………We got about 17 inches of snow on Sunday and Monday. (Blech on steroids!!!!!) The residential streets are difficult to negotiate. My car got stuck on the way to work Monday and I wasn’t alone. Cas, I wish I could ship you some of this stuff. We are having the 2nd snowiest winter ever when comparing total snowfall data for February 22nd and we still have one more month to go. The relentless snow and my financial concerns about some big repair projects around the house, along with Mr. GAG’s temper tantrum, has had me in a funk for the past several days or so. Starting to climb out of the funk now. ……….On the positive side, the arborist and his crew started working on my patio tree today and they’re doing an amazing job!!!!!!!! That makes me feel a lot better about spending several 1000 dollars on this project. They cut out all the dead branches and thinned out the upper canopy. There are 3 big piles of branches out by the street, but surprisingly the tree doesn’t look much different. Seeing this makes me happy that I decided to save the tree. When the wind is blowing hard outside now I won’t worry like I have been. If the tree had fallen, it could have destroyed a good part of my house.

No TT game this week because XH is traveling to a national conference today. I’m kind of glad. I need some time to regroup after feeling down the past few days. A little time apart should make our interaction next week more fun.

I love the interactions you are having and while the time factor might be frustrating for you, the pace seems to be about right.

MHL, I agree that this pace is probably right if there is going to be a chance of lasting changes. I think that XH is doing some processing, I just don’t have much opportunity to see what it is that he is processing. Just get glimpses now and then.

My only suggestion here is to keep things in the present tense....."You give" instead of "You gave" "You are" instead of "You were" "I like" instead of "I liked" see the difference??? You like it NOW and want more of it NOW. Remember you are building a NEW relationship, use the knowledge of the "old" R to build the "new" R........By bringing up the old R you potentially risk triggering a bad memory for Mr. GAG, and you do not want that.

I REALLY like this feedback!!!!! Excellent suggestion. Thanks for pointing this out.

You can't make him think something or make him see things your way.....and that is what you are doing. You come across controlling, weak, afraid, etc. If he asks what you think about BMF then tell him how YOU "feel".......personally I would not even do it then………………… GAG, this is where your "work" lies. just sayin'

MHL, I hope that you know that I respect you and value your feedback enormously. I welcome your 2 x 4’s because they help me to see things from others’ perspectives. Your comment that “this is where your “work” lies” resonated with me and I have been thinking about this. On the one hand, I will politely beg to differ a bit about the impact of what I said to XH about BMF. I think that if I had said “BMF won’t take care of you in your old age even though you have been a loyal friend to him for 30 years”, that would have been antagonistic and counterproductive. I would argue that my statement “BMF will take care of you, won’t he?” is actually a positive statement (it was stated in a positive, not sarcastic, manner) and if BMF wasn’t so self-centered, there would have been no question that it was an affirmative statement……….that said, your comments have helped me to realize that If there is to be a chance that things could work out between XH and me, I need to somehow resolve my feelings about BMF. I know that XH already feels as though he is stuck between BMF and BMF’s XW. That can’t be much fun for him. He doesn’t need to feel that from me too. Probably the best approach is to let that drama play out between BMF and his XW, and to let BMF trash talk me to XH while I do my best to stay above the fray………Thanks for this feedback MHL!

The fact that he is coming to the house is a huge step based on what you have told us previously........for your XH, the house is the "scene of the crime", he may get there and not feel comfortable.

I think you may be right about this. XH hasn’t really been coming to the house since we began reconnecting last summer. Prior to that, XH would come into the house when he brought X-SIL to visit. The last 2 times, he has dropped her off and run away. It IS almost as if “going public” about our interactions makes him nervous……..although he DID invite me to X-MIL’s birthday party when BMF was there………

I'm not surprised that Mr. GAG did not come to the door; this is not his normal pattern and as a 'first' he would probably need to do that alone. Being with his sister and coming to the house would likely give an impression of contact between you and he's probably just getting used to the idea himself let alone giving this information away to someone else. I think Mr GAG is doing this reconnecting stuff on his own terms and in his time.

Cas, this ^^^^^^ was an interesting perspective. XH is not shy in the least,……….but reconnecting would be much different than the superficial types of Rs he has.

MHL, your menu sounds interesting…….around here some folks eat dried whitefish soaked in lye (it’s Scandinavian) so grits sound exotic. A cooking thread sounds interesting. I’d LOVE to get Mila’s recipe for chocolate mousse cake!!!!!!! (Mila, please…..pretty, pretty, please??????)

Cas, yes, I think the word “peacefulness” is a good descriptor. Interesting that you can sense this through the written word.

GAG - I marvel at your patience in all of this. You are not only patient, but analytical, methodical and persistent....and you have done some amazing work rebuilding your relationship with XH. It's all a result of your efforts...it wouldn't happen on it's own...

Mila, thank you VERY much for your positive affirmations. This is such a long process and we are going against the flow in our choice to stand, so when positive feedback comes my way, it really means a lot! Thank you! Thank you too CW (Hugs to you both.)

I wonder if H feels uptight about you and his sister catching up, thinking that perhaps he is topic of conversation??

Yes, now that I’ve seen two temper tantrums following 2 lunches with X-SIL I think that you are probably correct in your assessment. When X-SIL and I met for 3 hours he must have assumed that we were talking about more than just pleasantries. XH and I have always been very good about communicating timetables, so I think the miscommunication was probably X-SIL's mistake and X-SIL got an up-close view of XH's temper tantrum. Wonder if she talked to him about that? I think you, CW, Mila, and Rabbit are right about this. Mila, thanks for the comment about “sibling rivalry”. Nuff said. I have 2 siblings myself.

…. on drive home it became apparent Mr Rabbit was squirming with his decision, did I try and alter it NO! Kissed him quick, wished him a safe journey and hopped out of car quick.
Left Mr Rabbit wanting to be there with me even more lol!.... Occasionally it doesnt hurt………… On the other hand now Mr Rabbit is insitu, I always jump up and greet him at the door for a kiss, and also make him feel welcomed home.

Rabbit, I always appreciate your practical advice and real life examples. I’m glad that XH is out of town this week. His trip gives us some space. I had begun to feel pooped from the extra work of DB’ing. This has given me a chance to relax and take care of myself. I’m feeling much better after my day off work today. I am thinking that even though Mr. GAG is still in the tunnel (as evidenced by his temper tantrum), he has been behaving more like his old self more of the time and that is a good thing.

Thank you all.

GAG