She is going slow, testing the waters and you just need to go slow.
I think there needs to be a clear "Boundary" here. My DB Coach and Sandi2(both women)basically stated she has to feel a sense of loss. She can't have BOTH.
This doesn't mean you be an A-hole, but SHE will not respect you if you "date" her knowing that she has someone else. Period.
This also means you can't go "rage" against her, you have to show yourself as the better option, but dating her while she might be actively dating OM is just not going to work.(In other words, keep working on you and doing DB)
Sinclair, YOU ARE THE BETTER MAN. You show her this by going out and and making her WANT to be with you by NOT accepting an open marriage and working on YOUR faults in the M. Your work here is being the BETTER YOU. You want to leave her with a sense of "Why am I with the OM, when I have this guy?"
If she is actively seeing this other guy and TELLING you she isn't, you have the right to verify this. YOU cannot compete with this guy AND respect yourself the next day.
You need to keep DB'ing, but not as a "second" option. Even MWD tells you how to obtain this respect and if you don't achieve it you do have the option to take ultimate action.
^^^^^ABSOLUTELY^^^^^^
In Divorce Remedy, in the chapter on Infidelity, MWD makes the need for this boundary very clear.
It has the potential to be "wonderful news" AFTER this boundary is in place and being respected by your W Sinclair. I hope for you that this happens. But, until then, you would be wise to follow the approach that Faith outlines above.
Sinclair is in a different place than the two of you are.
Your wife is testing the waters with you. She is interest in YOU. There is no need to second guess that. Take her at face value, and if/when you have a new reason to distrust, then you check that out if you want to.
The boundary/ultimatum is the AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE. You are not there.
Go with your own goal Sinclair.
Everyone here, including me, has an agenda when they post and they have their own perspective when they post. I make no apologies that my agenda is to support your goal to save your marriage.
You are the only person with the knowledge of your own relationship. You can only show your own perspective here, but the more you test your solutions, think about what is her perspective of your relationship is as well.
Sinclair is in a different place than the two of you are.
Not really. Assuming at it's best.
Originally Posted By: dbmod
Your wife is testing the waters with you. She is interest in YOU. There is no need to second guess that. Take her at face value, and if/when you have a new reason to distrust, then you check that out if you want to.
If your gut is telling you OM is in the picture, he is. Verify. My Wife is still interested in me too. Guilt? Trouble letting go? To be mean? I have NO idea. She is divorcing me, but one simple rule...If he's in her Life, I'm not. I'll continue to work on me and I will continue to DB, but as far as OM is in picture I can't compete with that. Me working on me, is what keeps her coming back to check .
Originally Posted By: dbmod
You are the only person with the knowledge of your own relationship. You can only show your own perspective here, but the more you test your solutions, think about what is her perspective of your relationship is as well.
Hence WHY we can only offer info on our Sitches. If we have experienced Wayward spouses, then we have a RIGHT to tell what we can do differently.
Sinclair has a very good situation, but so do I. I validated my Wife and continue to give her what SHE wants, but ADVICE according to this board and my DB COACH is also to respect myself. SINCE, I have done this and have actually focused on me and MY healthy Boundary, guess who contacts me on a daily basis?
My Goal is to save my Marriage, but I can't do it if I have someone else satisfying HER emotional needs. Much as I try, that has to die out on it's own. My choice is to move on, but treat her the way I DID NOT.
However, Did I cheat? NO.
Will I accept an Open Marriage? NO
Did I quit? No
Has RockedHER? NO
Did CD quit? NO
Will I continue to work on me and my part? Yes
Do not discredit our advice, because we are in the trenches. We are DB'ing, not promoting Divorce, but UNTIL the interlopers are out of the picture and our Spouses focus on themselves, we really can't do much else.
But I can sleep at night. Sinclair, I want you to be able to look in the mirror and KNOW you did the right thing and can sleep at night too.
The boundary/ultimatum is the AFTER THE LAST RESORT TECHNIQUE. You are not there.
"Sometimes, even after you've done all the right things, your spouse still refuses to stop seeing the OP. At some point, you may start to feel that you can no longer go on this way." The Divorce Remedy, pg. 218-9. This is MWD's description in her own words of the "After the Last Resort Technique".
DBmod... please explain to me, if no boundary has been set about not seeing the OP yet, how can MWD say the above? That makes no sense. There is a DIFFERENCE between the boundary Faith and I are referring to (meaning "I will not be in an open marriage, I will not date you while you are dating other people" vs. the Ultimatum that MWD discusses on pp. 230-231 of DR.
I did not read either Faith nor myself suggesting anything about an ultimatum.
Setting a boundary demonstrates self respect. That is attractive. Allowing your spouse to continue their infidelity while taking whatever crumbs they give you does not. That is unattractive and does a great deal of damage to one's self esteem.
I'm not sure what assumptions are being made about my motivations, but let me be clear that my motivations also happen to be to help Sinclair save his marriage. I have no other "agenda" than that, and don't appreciate insinuations to that effect.
On the emotional front an affair (on both ends really) is a huge obstacle to overcome. Even if she is not seeing OM still there is a period of withdrawal and often times the spouse who has committed infidelity will return to the LBS. This is a good time to strike IF you have put in place all the parameters necessary to safeguard both you and your marriage from further infidelity. And really, your W has to be totally on board.
And lets be real here... there are MANY reasons an adulterous spouse shows interest again. She may really have some interest but don't discount ulterior motives (finances, legal trouble and so on). The best way to find out if ulterior motives are fueling her new found interest is to fully execute the plan for safeguarding the marriage. If she fails to happily comply the consequences will be swift.
EVERYBODY here hopes to save their marriage. Saving a marriage is not a black and white endeavor and many things have to be considered. Honestly, if your state is one that acknowledges adultery in legal proceedings I would certainly investigate. In some states if a spouse has had an affair and the other spouse knows about it AND has sex AFTER the affair then they have consented to the affair. Sadly, some spouses who show "interest" after being caught know this and protect themselves via VERY manipulated channels.
Remove the doubt by implementing the basic plan that EVERYBODY should be following when recovering from an affair. But your W needs to do the bulk of the work, show remorse and REALLY not balk at the details of it all. Otherwise you are asking for more trouble. Don't fool yourself thinking you are on an even playing field here.
Thank you for joining my thread. You appear to be giving me similar advice to CDBear, but the way you phrase it (without the hate and anger in your voice) your point is made and feels heartfelt. dbmod seems to have missed the part where my wife didn't return to her apartment all night.
Essentially, when my wife suggested that we start dating, it wasn't inappropriate (R Talk) for me to ask her if she was dating other men. It fact, it is the necessary prelude to setting boundaries: "I will not live in an open marriage" and "I will not date you while you are dating other men." Likewise, it was not inappropriate for me to have "verified" by driving by her apartment. Now that I am reasonably certain that the affair continues, in spite of her reassurances, I need to set those boundaries.
I can see from my own reaction (to those who have taken the time to post) that this will be a delicate conversation. She appears to be sitting on the fence; a little push could send her in either direction. Worse yet, would be to accept the sitch with my doubts and lose respect for myself. How can she respect me if I don't?
What if I wrote her a letter? If I start writing it, can I get everyone's help in editing it?
I would not write a letter, text, call or e-mail anything to your W. Honestly, the conversation need not be hard or long. Any decent family therapist would tell you that setting your boundaries is a 2 min. conversation and your W need not "think" about it. It's yes or no. If she is unable to provide you with the necessary safeguards to keep your marriage affair free and do so with remorse and openness you will know right away.
Plus - if you handle this right YOUR demeanor matters. Body language, eye contact and tone are essential. By setting YOUR boundaries and NOT delivering ultimatums you are leaving the choice up to her to make with free will.
Don't emasculate yourself by using the word delicate or any other "touch feely" verbiage. Firm, loving action is required and that will require a masculine approach. You don't have the power to push her either way (none of us do). Set your boundaries and let her decide freely.
I do not agree with faith or Rocked...but I will leave them up.
And unless I missed something, her not coming home was BEFORE she said she gave him up and decided she wanted to start dating you.
Your AS IF IS a delicate thing. The very thing you ASSUME you can often create. Unless you have a new reason not to trust her (if you mean by driving by you saw his car there), then trust her. If you saw his car there, keep your eyes and ears open. It could have been a goodbye, he could have been stopping by unwelcome. Keep open, but don't jump to conclusions.
I do agree with City Girl: I would not write a letter, text, call or e-mail anything to your W. Honestly, the conversation need not be hard or long. Any decent family therapist would tell you that setting your boundaries is a 2 min. conversation and your W need not "think" about it. It's yes or no. If she is unable to provide you with the necessary safeguards to keep your marriage affair free and do so with remorse and openness you will know right away.
Plus - if you handle this right YOUR demeanor matters. Body language, eye contact and tone are essential. By setting YOUR boundaries and NOT delivering ultimatums you are leaving the choice up to her to make with free will.
so--why not practice your word choice here.
"I would love to date you, but because of our past I can only date you exclusively when you are ready to provide (emails cell phone bill....) as proof, because of ______." Or whatever it is you need. Try on a few scenarios.
I don't agree completely with this: Don't emasculate yourself by using the word delicate or any other "touch feely" verbiage. Firm, loving action is required and that will require a masculine approach. You don't have the power to push her either way (none of us do). Set your boundaries and let her decide freely.
You have not emasculated yourself using the word 'delicate'. It was an appropriate use here. And every relationship has a different atmosphere to it. Use what has worked before.
As much as I welcome the opportunity to begin dating you again, I'm having misgivings. You told me last Saturday that you were not dating other men. You must understand that, for me, this is a necessary precondition to our dating. I will not live in an open marriage and I will not date you while you are dating other men. These are non-negotiable, unalterable terms; above all, this is a matter of self respect.
To be clear, I'm not giving you an ultimatum; what I'm giving you is time. When you´re ready to faithfully commit to our marriage, we can date, but not before.
As I have told you, many times, what I cherish the most in our relationship is our friendship. If we are going to continue our friendship and build trust between us, we need to be honest with each other.
I have and will continue to respect your decisions in all matters, please give me the same consideration.
