Need some help with moving forward.

[talia]

Hi Michael,
You've gotten some great advice and support on your thread so far... I'm going to shatter that. Talia weilding gianT 2X4.. Sorry in advance - this will be harsh but its what you need to hear....

At what point did you agree to be in an open marriage? Your wife can't possibly respect you - you've done nothing to earn her respect. You cheated and she threw a fit - you changed. She cheated and you accepted. You haven't setup any clear boundaries and the weak ones you did setup you haven't enforced. You are not good together if she is with someone else, what you are feeling is history. If the two of you go on from here it will be with an entirely new relationship. TIME TO GET SERIOUS.

You need to GAL. You cannot seem to imagine life without her and you need to find some kind of life thats yours. No one on this planet needs another person to be happy. You need to find that place and you CANNOT do it while you are trying to placate your wife into ending her affair. The nicer you are the more she wants him. You almost have to let them play it out.I would suggest if there is even ONE contact with him going forward, you ask her to leave. Don't you leave - the person who wants the marriage stays.

You need to get some help. Support Group, IC, something RIGHT NOW. How you feel - about yourself and your wife - is not something you can sort out on your own. Find a Pro Marriage professional and start talking. THATS the only way you will heal from this affair and move forward mentally.

Would you want your daughter or son to put up with a person who is doing what your W is? If they were dating someone like that what advice would you give them? If your actions don't match that advice then you need to consider what kind of an example you are.

I know this is hard and I know it ALL seems like the exact opposite of what you should be doing right now. People want what they can't have... does your W see you that way? Your behavior is the only thing you control.


Hang in there. I hope this wasn't TOO harsh. We're all here to help, even if it dosen't seem like it.


Talia

[talia]

OH - One last thought. At what point is it your job to help OM fix his marriage. His W deserves to know. I think there are alot of different opinions on here about that, this is just mine. That poor woman may have no idea. OM is the one making the bad choices, thats not your fault. I agree with Cutter - tell her.

[talia]

Michael,
This is courtsey of ROBX on another thread. You need to hear this too even though it wasn't meant for you specifically... I know some parts aren't totally fitting - but read the whole thing.....


There's your 2x4, wear it proudly.

My W wants a D and wants me out of the house.

Ummm... yeah, good for her, why do you have to listen to what she says? Is she listening to you? Does she care about what you want? No she made this decision and by going along with her decision to kick you out, you are killing the attraction between you, in fact, it's dead, she can't respect you, you don't respect yourself, you're like a broken man, how can she respect that? Women are attracted to men who are masculine and have strong masculine traits: one of those being that you stand up for yourself in the situations that require it. You respond intelligently & confidently to a situation, you don't react blindly like a scared mouse.

Seriously you sound scared and broken and gosh golly gee, women love a scared and broken man, nothing gets that estrogen pumping in a woman like a weak wussy scared little man, heck I'm getting hot just thinking about it and I'm a guy!

You will tell your wife this (and yes it's going to require guts and bravery and courage that you currently don't have but you have to do it anyways, if you don't, you will lose her forever, I'm not saying you have a guaranteed chance of turning this around but you are definitely not getting there doing what you're doing),
"Wife, I've been thinking about our current situation and I've decided that I'm not going to move out. I can't make you change your mind about us or keeping our marriage alive but I'm not going to enable you to walk all over me. If you want a divorce and can't live with me, you're going to have to be the one to move out because I've decided I'm staying - it's my decision if I want to stay or to leave, not yours. It's unfortunate if you don't like this but I can't control your feelings, I have to do what's best for me. If you divorce me, I will pursue shared joint custody of our children, I won't be a weekend dad or less than that just so you can have fun with some other guy - that's my decision too."

"As for that stroker/OM on crackbook, you're a married woman, you want to fool around with another man, flirt with another man while being married, that's not cool with me, continue doing that and I will pack your things and place them in the driveway, I won't be made a fool of by you or anyone else. You can have all the fun you want with another man when you're divorced, but you're still legally married so until thathappens you will not disrespect me in my own home."

She will have a fit and she will get angry, 99% always do, that's ok, realize that something is going on, you are standing up for yourself, it's not evident right away but doing so actually registers subconsciously with her, she may tell you she hates you and she may tell you she was considering "taking you back" or some other such nonsense but now it's game over for you and you hearing all this will no doubt be scared & frightened and crouch in the fetal position on the floor and wait for the nightmare to end but that would be the wrong move - trust me. You just stand there and weather the storm, I don't care if she yells every obscenity the book at you, calls you this, that and everything else, you just reply to her while looking at her eyes and maintaining eye contact that you've made your decision and moving forward you will make decisions that involve your life. She doesn't have your best interests in mind currently and she will do whatever it takes to get you back under her heel.

Look at the dynamics here,
you both originally chose together to start seeing each other, date, get married, have kids, the type of house to buy, the neighborhood to live in, etc. Those were decisions you made together, that's what people do in a relationship that is mutually beneficial. Along the way, you get old, fat, boring, stinky, lazy, don't satisfy alot of the relationship requirements on her part and her needs aren't met. After a while of repeated behavior, you've trained her to not liking those behaviors and then regardless if you improve or not, you don't do it enough and consistently, she associates you with bad experiences, bad memories, an unfulfilling life, etc. The sex life dies, the conversations are limited, there is no energy anymore, no mutual beneficial interactions, you guys just act out what life is for you at the time being and we all know how fulfilling and exciting that is. Then one day she gets a glimmer of something that looks warm, inviting, exciting, liberating, and she longs for it. Why wouldn't it, her life is boring & unfulfilling and you aren't doing "it" for her anymore. Then as fate would have it, she decides that life is too short to waste in this type of existence, so she starts to think about what would be needed to get that life. She isn't attracted you anymore, your harmful behaviors have killed that attraction, and she is looking to be attracted to something again, to feel energy, excitement, a relief from everyday life. So one of the goals to getting this new life is getting rid of the old life and that includes you and on top of getting rid of you, the process involves obtaining a replacement, someone more masculine, more impressive, more exciting, more virile and her juices get flowing again but not for you. On top of that, if she's in her 30s and 40s, she's experiencing an increased production in testosterone in her body which is increasing her libido while at the same time, nature is playing a cruel trick on you if you're in that age range because your testosterone production is dropping. She becomes more aggressive, assertive, and she starts standing up to you, treating you poorly, making decisions that affect your life but without any regard to your quality of life or how it will affect you, she doesn't care anymore. Her system is on autopilot and this is a mechanism that is running in her and telling her how to act, feel, talk, think, etc. You've assisted this internal mechanism that's in place for her to find another man by validating that you aren't the right guy for her, you're week, supplicating, complacent, not aggressive, you don't have any self respect and you don't have any courage.

How can she respect you?

How could you ever stand up for her if the need or situation ever presented itself if you can't even stand up to her? Its counter intuitive, its nothing you've ever been taught. She wants a man and she's looking past you because she determined through her own decision making process aided by the autopilot mechanisms in place that you aren't masculine enough, you aren't man enough.

So how do you get that respect back?

You stand up for yourself and you stand up to her.

Scary and unreal and impossible as it sounds, its the one thing you MUST do.

So now that all of my long winded post is out of the way, the real question is this, are you able to stand up to her?

My guess is no.

My guess is that your first time at bat, you'll swing, she'll call you on it and then you'll back down, you'll fold like a house made from a deck of cards and you will validate her original decision about you.

You'll tell us that your situation is unique and it's not as simple as this and you'll keep asking questions on how to turn things around regardless if we've given you the answers because you're too weak, afraid and ineffectual to employ the advice we're giving you.

I would ask you that you do what I asked, I can't offer you any guarantees other than to tell you that what you are currently doing will not work as you are both planning to move you out, as for her recent furniture purchases, she wants the place to look new & inviting for that eventual day when she has the OM over for dinner & sex - my hope is that you're not peeking through the window of your home when this is happening, that would be a heartbreaker.

How's that for honesty?

[michaelCM]

Hi talia,
Thanks for the input. You're points are all well taken, and I agree with most everything that you say. Like I stated in a previous post, I am starting to GAL, and I do think that I really need to go talk to somebody, because I am not able to get through this alone. (money is an issue, as we are still paying off the MC that we saw last year, and times are tight. But, this will be a priority for me asap.)

And, you'll pardon me if I use this space to vent. Even if my venting sounds unhealthy, I am working to be healthy.

I also appreciate your passing along ROBXs thread. Nothing like upgrading from a 2x4 to a 4x4.

I am still a little stuck on the talking to the OM's W. First of all, I don't have any reservations about what this will do to the OM; my concern is for the OM's W. But, I do understand that she deserves the truth, and if it were me, I'd want to know. Any ideas about how to approach her or about what to say? (How to do it gently? Can it be done gently?)
Do I tell my W that I'm going to do it? Does it matter?

thanks, again.

[undefeated]

Michael, I don't know about your specific area, but many good IC's work on a sliding fee scale in my home state to help ensure everyone gets mental health treatment.

If you are absolutely intent upon speaking to the OM's W, don't tell your W. She doesn't need to hear your plans. It would give her time to cook up a story with OM. Besides, it has nothing to do with her right now. You are one concerned and wronged adult speaking to another about two supposed adults acting like children.

As for what to say and how to say it, I don't have specific ideas here. But don't become confrontational. You are not at war with this woman. But she may not believe you, may not be willing to speak to you, or any number of other negative responses to your attempt.

[michaelCM]

I'll be looking into the IC options. I know that there might be some ways to afford it. I think that I may be kind of in a strange place: make too much money but way broke right now. I'll see what I can do.
Thanks for the advice on OM's W. I am definitely not going to be confrontational with her. I have nothing against her. If anything, I feel really bad for her, and I want to protect her; thus, my reluctance. Not to mention the fact that I wonder how she'll take it, will she be mad at me, is it the right thing to do, etc., etc. At one point, years ago, we were all friends...

[talia]

Hi Michael,
Cutter gave some good advice about telling the other LBS - do it ASAP! She deserves to know so she can protect herself legally, financially and medically. If OM is cheating on her she needs to know so she can be sure to double check the medical stuff at least. You never know what else OM has done behind her back.

When I first needed to go to IC I found a free place near where I live. Most cities have them. Then my only sacrifice was driving there. It was a little out of my way, but totally worth it. Once I could afford it I moved to a sliding scale place. Google "free counseling" and your state - see what pops up. Also if you have a Dr you can ask them - many times they can point you to free mental health resources or community programs. Are you religious? Check with local churches - alot of them have support groups or resources that are open to the public. There are enough low cost/ free places - but it takes some digging. Put in the effort - is has saved MY life and my PMA...

I'm glad the last posts weren't too harsh - ROBX really knows how to swing'em I think his post is a good wake up call! Feel free to vent here - that's what we are here for! We are also here to make sure we keep the bumpers up and help you work through the feelings that come with the venting. That's the wonderful part of this forum... I've come to find it necessary to get through my days. There are a lot of really great vets on here - do everything they say without argument and at least you will know you gave it your best shot - not matter what the outcome.

Make finding a free IC resource your priority - it will be the best thing you have ever done to GAL for yourself!! I promise.

Fight the good fight!!

T

[michaelCM]

Thanks, talia.
I'll be looking into my options. I may go back to EAP. (Employee Assistance Program) I went there a couple of years ago, and my W and I started there before we saw a MC (whom I thought helped but ultimately wasn't very satisfied with) (the MC, not EAP) I guess that's as good a place as any, and they can recommend someone from there that may be cheaper. I'll google the free stuff as well. Thanks for all the tips.

I am coming around to telling the other LBS. She does deserve to know, but I hate to be the one to break it to her. Maybe she knows more than I think and can answer some of my questions.

Feel free to swing away. I need a good swat once in a while.

[michaelCM]

Does anyone have an example email to the other LBS (OM's W) that I might use? Seriously having trouble finding the words...

[undefeated]

Are you sure you can't call or meet F2F? I've been told repeatedly that writing your message is a less than brave way to go.

As for what to say, does she already know you? I forget...

If not, you might want to begin with "My name is _____ and I am not a telemarketer." C'mon, you know you smiled.

But really, just be candid. Explain who you are, who your W is, and that she is involved with this woman's husband. Offer to give her the evidence if she wants it. It will possibly be a nasty shock for her, so don't take her initial response personally or assume it is permanent.

You can do this.