Need some help with moving forward.

[michaelCM]

Hi everyone,
Wow. I have been reading posts here for a couple of weeks, and I am amazed at the stuff I have read. I have to say, that I am thankful that I am not in some of the situations that others have found themselves in (although, the pain I have felt seems to be just as acute.) I'm glad that this is here for people. I am also amazed at the compassion and willingness to help that is on display here, which is why I write.

Here is my story, pared down a bit so as not to bore.
About two years ago, I found myself in kind of a bad place in life (questioning where I was at, etc.) I found myself migrating toward work more. I was knee deep in a project, and was willing to put in extra hours to get it done. I think that this was the first step in alienating myself from my wife of 10 years at the time. We didn't see each other much at night after my 3 kids were in bed, like normal. I would come home and she'd be asleep. I would log in to the computer and started chatting with people. I wandered. I strayed. I was unfaithful, having sexually charged conversations with others. My wife discovered this. I never met anyone personally, never had sex, etc., but I was so very wrong. It hurt her bad. With good reason.

She cried, yelled, etc. I promised her it would never happen again. It didn't. It hasn't. But, I did not do the other things that she asked me to do: Be more in tune with us, with her. Try more to make our marriage work. She became distant; going out a lot, coming home late. Never saw the signs, or just chalked it up to her job. (long story)

I began to be suspicious, and thought I had found little pieces of evidence of an OM (on her phone, strange behavior, etc.). In Dec. of '08, she went Christmas shopping, came back a few hours later and had alcohol on her breath. After seeing a text from the OM afterward saying "thanks for the time", I confronted her about it, and she said she didn't tell me because she didn't want to make me jealous. He was just a friend (someone I know who is also married), etc.
I didn't believe her, so the next couple of months, I made it my mission in life to find out what was going on. After discovering her work email and Facebook password. I did indeed find out on Feb 16, '09.

Apparently, she had been in a relationship with him that started to get serious around August of '08. Definitely an EA. Not sure about a PA. She says that they kissed and touched a little. I don't know if I'll ever find out the whole truth about that.

I confronted her about it. Eventually, she fessed up. She said that she wanted me and only me. She wanted to work on the marriage. The OM was a friend only. We went to counseling. After I asked, she agreed to stop having contact with him. I didn't tell her that I had her passwords, so over the next few weeks, etc., I knew that she was still having a lot of contact. I confronted her again. Told her that I had had it. She talked to the OM and told him, finally, that she couldn't talk any more. That was it...until a couple of months ago.

She sees him once in a while out at the bar. She has fallen back into contact with him. About 6 weeks ago, she got a ride home from him. I confronted her about that. But she still has contact with him. I get the same explanation: he's a friend and I want to know that he's okay. I don't talk to him much, etc. Since the discovery, I've never seen anything that leads me to believe that they are still involved, but how do I know?
She tells me that

At this point, I'm not sure how to proceed. I have asked her to not have contact with him, multiple times. At first, she just poorly hid it. Now, she's better at hiding it.
I don't know how I am ever going to heal.
I don't know how to keep bringing it up, without once again pushing her away. I love her, but this contact is keeping me from being whole again.

I don't blame her for the affair, much. But, it's been a year almost since I found out, and it's always fresh. The memories are bad enough without being reminded again and again.
I know the rule is that she shouldn't have contact with him if she really wants to work on the marriage, etc.
Anyway, I'll stop there. There are many other details that I have left out, but I'll save that for later, if necessary.
Any advice you have would be very much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Ready2Change]

I responded to your first thread here:
First thread

It is best to just keep one thread. I will read this post and respond in this one.

[Ready2Change]

Same advise:

I strongly suggest reading "not just friends". It has wonderful information on how to heal from A.

"Boundaries" by cloud has great information. Instead of giving her ultimatum's, you give clearly communicate what you will and will not accept in your relationship. You can not control her, but you can control how you react/respond to irresponsible behavior.

[undefeated]

Ok, I must agree with Ready2Change - please stick to one thread. It makes you easier to find.

I think there is important stuff about you that wasn't in your other thread.

Do not allow her to think that your online sexually inappropriate behavior allows a tit-for-tat response. You chose poorly, and you owned it. You have changed your behavior. If she needs further closure for it to be a closed book in her mind, maybe you need to talk about it together. But she is not allowed to use this as an excuse for her A.

Apparently, she had been in a relationship with him that started to get serious around August of '08. Definitely an EA. Not sure about a PA. She says that they kissed and touched a little. I don't know if I'll ever find out the whole truth about that.

#1 - You will find that most people here believe an A is just that and should never be considered a relationship. Personally I disagree, but that is neither here nor there. Something to keep in mind. Either way, she had no right to pursue an A with another man while married to you.

#2 - If they kissed and touched, it's physical! Just because they may or may not have had sex does not change the fact that someone other than you had his hands on your W and she encouraged it. Not ok!

#3 - Be careful with the truth; it's dangerous. The things you think you want so desperately to know can haunt you.

I haven't asked my H about his A (he's currently engaged in one so it would be counter-productive), and I'm not sure I will. Part of me wants to know every sordid detail, to have it laid before me in every aspect so I can know the worst and then let it go. But I am devastated already by a few e-mails and pictures of them I found. For me wondering is usually worse than just knowing. I knew something was horribly wrong before I forced the truth of the A out of him. In that situation, not knowing was far worse; wondering every minute if my suspicions were true or completely unfounded. Knowing was, in many ways, much easier. I can face the monster I can see. I digress. The point is, think before you ask.

This continued contact, even casually with the ex-OM is not ok. I cheated on my husband several years ago and then later became "friends" with my ex-OM. It was wrong and it hurt my H. If she wants you, she has to give him up entirely. NC means NC. No middle ground here. If she runs into him when out with friends, she needs to leave. If he offers her contact (ie - rides, coffee dates, e-mails, phone calls) she needs to refuse. And she needs to mean it.

The fact that she is hiding her contact with the OM is a definite red flag. Demand absolute transparency from her. If she doesn't like it, too bad. If she wants you she has to toe the line. Stop asking her to have NC with OM - demand it. Make a consequence for contacting him, and then follow through. Boundaries are a must. Until you set clear boundaries and enforce them, she'll continue to have it both ways. Again, this is not ok!

I don't know how I am ever going to heal.
I don't know how to keep bringing it up, without once again pushing her away. I love her, but this contact is keeping me from being whole again.

You are going to heal one day at a time, and by demanding the respect you deserve. She cannot disrespect you by keeping in contact with the OM without consequences. You deserve better and you need to demand it for yourself.

Don't bring it up over and over. Explain it once. Set your boundaries, and then stick to them. It is her choice to have her M with you or to have the OM. No fence-riding.

Have you read DB and DR? It's time to start looking to yourself for happiness. When our happiness comes solely from outside sources it can be taken away without our permission or input. Your happiness belongs to you, and it needs to come from you as well. If you haven't already, please get the books...they explain better.

I don't blame her for the affair, much

While you don't need to harp on the A and place blame, let me make it quite clear.

An affair is the choice of the person who is involved.

Your W needs to own that this was her wrong, her betrayal.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Ok, I must agree with Ready2Change - please stick to one thread. It makes you easier to find.

I think there is important stuff about you that wasn't in your other thread.

Do not allow her to think that your online sexually inappropriate behavior allows a tit-for-tat response. You chose poorly, and you owned it. You have changed your behavior. If she needs further closure for it to be a closed book in her mind, maybe you need to talk about it together. But she is not allowed to use this as an excuse for her A.

Apparently, she had been in a relationship with him that started to get serious around August of '08. Definitely an EA. Not sure about a PA. She says that they kissed and touched a little. I don't know if I'll ever find out the whole truth about that.

#1 - You will find that most people here believe an A is just that and should never be considered a relationship. Personally I disagree, but that is neither here nor there. Something to keep in mind. Either way, she had no right to pursue an A with another man while married to you.

#2 - If they kissed and touched, it's physical! Just because they may or may not have had sex does not change the fact that someone other than you had his hands on your W and she encouraged it. Not ok!

#3 - Be careful with the truth; it's dangerous. The things you think you want so desperately to know can haunt you.

I haven't asked my H about his A (he's currently engaged in one so it would be counter-productive), and I'm not sure I will. Part of me wants to know every sordid detail, to have it laid before me in every aspect so I can know the worst and then let it go. But I am devastated already by a few e-mails and pictures of them I found. For me wondering is usually worse than just knowing. I knew something was horribly wrong before I forced the truth of the A out of him. In that situation, not knowing was far worse; wondering every minute if my suspicions were true or completely unfounded. Knowing was, in many ways, much easier. I can face the monster I can see. I digress. The point is, think before you ask.

This continued contact, even casually with the ex-OM is not ok. I cheated on my husband several years ago and then later became "friends" with my ex-OM. It was wrong and it hurt my H. If she wants you, she has to give him up entirely. NC means NC. No middle ground here. If she runs into him when out with friends, she needs to leave. If he offers her contact (ie - rides, coffee dates, e-mails, phone calls) she needs to refuse. And she needs to mean it.

The fact that she is hiding her contact with the OM is a definite red flag. Demand absolute transparency from her. If she doesn't like it, too bad. If she wants you she has to toe the line. Stop asking her to have NC with OM - demand it. Make a consequence for contacting him, and then follow through. Boundaries are a must. Until you set clear boundaries and enforce them, she'll continue to have it both ways. Again, this is not ok!

I don't know how I am ever going to heal.
I don't know how to keep bringing it up, without once again pushing her away. I love her, but this contact is keeping me from being whole again.

You are going to heal one day at a time, and by demanding the respect you deserve. She cannot disrespect you by keeping in contact with the OM without consequences. You deserve better and you need to demand it for yourself.

Don't bring it up over and over. Explain it once. Set your boundaries, and then stick to them. It is her choice to have her M with you or to have the OM. No fence-riding.

Have you read DB and DR? It's time to start looking to yourself for happiness. When our happiness comes solely from outside sources it can be taken away without our permission or input. Your happiness belongs to you, and it needs to come from you as well. If you haven't already, please get the books...they explain better.

I don't blame her for the affair, much

While you don't need to harp on the A and place blame, let me make it quite clear.

An affair is the choice of the person who is involved.

Your W needs to own that this was her wrong, her betrayal.

This. ^ Perfectly-stated; there's your roadmap, Michael.

You need to be prepared, emotionally, that this has most likely gone fully physical. Wayward spouses usually will admit to one level LESS than what the truth is:

- "there's absolutely nothing on" = "inappropriate friendship"

- "inappropriate friendship or feelings" = "full-blown Emotional Affair" (EA)

- "we've never been physical" = "full-blown Physical Affair" (PA), or sometimes it had BECOME physical, but they've temporarily cooled it, either voluntarily or due to outside pressure.

But even so, even her ADMITTED behavior is completely unacceptable. The time to establish clear boundaries is EARLY ON, for your own emotional health.

Puppy

[michaelCM]

Thanks to you both. Sorry about the multiple posts. Know how to delete a post? Can't seem to figure it out.

A couple of things:
I am fully aware of the "beware of the truth" mantra. I have been wrestling with that since discovery. I think that I am at piece with what I know so far.
And, I have pretty much assumed that sex did happen, and yes, that is what I have considered to be a PA, but you are right, they did have a PA.
I've been give half truths about everything that I didn't have evidence to rebut, is my understanding.

One of the things that I am grappling with is the boundaries thing and the consequences. Aside from threatening to leave if she has contact with him again, what are consequences that I can offer? Seems like I have been down that road.
I'm just not sure. I don't know if I could ever leave her. I know. I'm sad. I've never been good with confrontation or even sticking up for myself. Seems like I have in the recent past with this very issue (contact with OM), but it really didn't do me any good, because there was no meat behind it.

I have read DB, and Undefeated, you are so right about looking to myself for happiness. My wife and I have spent a lot of years just looking out for the kids, and I think that contributed to some of this. She started looking out for herself and had an affair. I need to start looking out for myself with the mindset that this will be good for both of us. Or something.
Anyway, thanks again to Undefeated and Puppy.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

One of the things that I am grappling with is the boundaries thing and the consequences. Aside from threatening to leave if she has contact with him again, what are consequences that I can offer? Seems like I have been down that road.
I'm just not sure. I don't know if I could ever leave her. I know. I'm sad. I've never been good with confrontation or even sticking up for myself. Seems like I have in the recent past with this very issue (contact with OM), but it really didn't do me any good, because there was no meat behind it.

I have read DB, and Undefeated, you are so right about looking to myself for happiness. My wife and I have spent a lot of years just looking out for the kids, and I think that contributed to some of this. She started looking out for herself and had an affair. I need to start looking out for myself with the mindset that this will be good for both of us. Or something.
Anyway, thanks again to Undefeated and Puppy.

I suspect she KNOWS this, and that's why she's not respecting you.

Until you lose this fear, you'll be stuck.

Puppy

[michaelCM]

I know. Deep breath. I think that I'm going to talk about this tonight with her, because it's tearing me up and it can't continue.

[michaelCM]

By the way, at one point, I threatened to go to the OM's wife, and that seemed to do the trick of getting her to stop contact for a while anyway. Thoughts on this approach?

[michaelCM]

Let me clarify a bit on my last post:
When I threatened to go to the OM's W, my W finally said that she would cut off all contact. When I asked her if protecting him was the motivation behind that, she of course said no.
At this point, I have no idea whether the OM's wife knows anything (I have been given conflicting stories about that by my W. "she doesn't know", "she's suspicious", etc., and it all seemed to be dependent on the conversation that my W and I were having.)
As far as I know, the NC period lasted for about 3-4 months. When I found out, I didn't contact the OM's W, etc. So, it at least worked for a bit, but I didn't follow through, because it was months later.
Anyway, any advice is appreciated. I've seen varying opinions on this matter here.