Sad to be back

[AnotherNightmare]

You can find the details on my sitch in Newcomers (link in my signature), but I will quickly summarize what has happened:

In Nov, W dropped the bomb and requested a D. I quickly found out that she had an EA going with someone from school in Germany. We both are from Germany and moved to the US in 98 after she had ended a PA with a work colleague. So this is the second episode. She wanted to move back taking the kids, which I would not allow. Finally end of Dec, she came around, agreed to Retrouvaille in mid Feb, and kind of ended the contact with OM.

I think this is where I made a major mistake. I did not insist on 100% no contact, but thought that "trust, but verify", i.e. I monitored her e-mails with the help of a keylogger would give me enough safety. I also thought with the help of Retro and more communication things would get better. Initially, it actually took that direction, even though OM kept sending e-mails about once every two weeks and W responded once or twice in 3 months. It took a turn for the worse when W was diagnosed with breast cancer early April. She informed OM a few days later, and we had a huge fight. I made clear to her that I did not tolerate any contact.
Even though she promised we would write a NC e-mail to OM after her surgery late April, she broke that promise and sent another e-mail to OM. I confronted her, but she did not give in. I decided to tell OM in no uncertain terms to f!ck off and blacklisted his e-mail address in my wife's accounts.

Over the next 3 months, we were slowly getting better. The breast cancer treatment turned out to be a nightmare with a total of 3 surgeries, even though the prognosis was extremely positive. I stood by her as much as I could, even though she never acknowledged that. She actually belittled my efforts saying that if this was all I would do, she would not want to be with me in a real crisis. I was frustrated and hurt, but kept working on it.
Unfortunately, I underestimated OM. He found W on a social network site and contacted her again asking why she did not respond to his e-mails. She investigated and found evidence that I was monitoring her, even though she still does not know how I did it. We did not talk for a while, and she asked me to go to a C session with her. Of course, W made it look like that my invading her privacy was a much bigger trust issue than her infidelity. Her IC was actually quite understanding and confirmed my request of NC. The C actually made her admit that she contributed to the problems in our M. W reluctantly agreed to say something she did not mean after fighting it for more than 2 minutes. I should have stopped it, but I guess I never expected her to actually say it. And when she said it, I could not believe my ears, even though I could see in her face there was nothing sincere about it.

However, she does not show any remorse, does not apologize and is not willing to write the NC e-mail/letter to OM ending the EA permanently. I told her if she ever talked to OM again, I would never talk to her again. I would find a third person to handle the issues around the kids.

But nothing seems to get her out of her fog. She actually reads a book on how to cope with a narcissistic person. I find that ironic, because showing no remorse, never apologizing and affairs are rather symptoms of narcism. Anyway, I am pretty much done, unless I hear say something like "I am sorry I hurt you". I have not filed yet, but I am getting closer and closer.
I certainly have stopped working on this M.

[AnotherNightmare]

So it is Friday afternoon, W returns from IC. She goes right to her computer in the kitchen. When I come up and empty the dishwasher, I ask her if she wants a coffee, while I am preparing tea for myself. She says no, but nothing else.

I have no idea what to do other than continuing what I have been. No R talk, unless she initiates. I avoid arguments. I still talk to her about tactical things, but that is it.

After she discovered that I had access to her e-mail account, we had a fight, not really big, because I stopped it in its tracks by saying: "Look, if you do not want to end the R with OM permanently and work on our M, that is fine, just let me know and move out!" She responded: "I am not moving out!" Can someone explain to me what is going on?

[Phoenixdeux]

I'll explain...your wife is having an EA and doesn't want to give it up. Your marriage likely won't make a great deal of headway until she truly gives him up...and that will happen in her own time. Even if she never contacts him again, she still may pine away and wonder whether she lost her soulmate.

I can't say that it sounds like you are giving her an attractive option to OM. I'd monitor her from time to time, but start getting out of spy mode. Maybe give her some space by getting out to do your own thing. Get busy with other things and do stuff with the kids.

It seems as though things are pretty frosty at the moment. You obviously can't push too hard, but you can still show some friendliness while also showing your independent side.

[AnotherNightmare]

Thanks, PD.

I have actually been out of spy mode for over 3 months. I guess that is why I did not catch OM's creative attempt LOL. I am not even interested anymore. So I do not know whether they are in contact again.

I have been doing lots of GAL. On weekends I grab the kids to play baseball, go to a stargazing event, you name it. I am actually planning my life without her.

The deadlock we have is very simple. She may not want to continue the EA, but she wants to keep OM as a friend. I told her that was not acceptable to me. Plus, I want to see something that tells me she owns her sh!t. Unfortunately, in the past I never really followed through on these things. And I guess that is what she is hoping for this time as well.

This time I know I have to stick to it. But the tension is killing me...

[Sara]

Hi AN,

Sorry to see you here and still having problems. Have you contacted any of the Retrouvaille leaders to get suggestions from them on your situation? It sounds like the IC may be helpful. Perhaps you could continue to go to some sessions with her.

I just got home after setting up another Retrouvaille weekend here in Tampa. We had a very big turn-out. There seem to be a lot of unhappy marriages out there.

[AnotherNightmare]

Thank you for your input, Sara.

I have been thinking about contacting the Retrouvaille leaders. W has stopped dialoging. I have communicated to her how I feel about the whole situation. And there is no point in lecturing her about my POV again, which is consistent with Retro's POV, consistent with what PD wrote and consistent with so many websites: there has to be NO CONTACT for our M to make any progress. W disagrees with that. When I tell her that it hurts me or I feel devalued by what she just said, she tells me that is because of your childhood, it is not because I mean it that way. I do not argue about that anymore. Either she eventually understands or she does not. It is out of my control.

I would like to join her for the C sessions, but it is her decision. So far she has asked me to come with her only twice. The first time her IC suggested it, the second time she wanted to get a point across (the one about respecting her privacy). She does not think she has to earn my trust back. She thinks I have to trust her, so she can feel safe. On the other hand, she tells me she does not trust me. I am at a loss. I do not think I have ever seen more self-righteous behavior than hers right now. It takes all my strength not to engage in any resentful behavior again. I constantly have to remind myself not to argue with her.

Since I collected all her e-mails with OM for the first two months (mainly as evidence for a D and custody battle in court), I read one specific e-mail again. I remembered that at one point OM got pissed off because of what she had written. He told her flat out that she hurt him a lot and said good-bye. I read her reply: no apology, only a whole bunch of defensive crap (which OM, of course, willingly accepted just like me 19 years ago).
So I went back to some of the letters W and I had exchanged during the first couple of months of our R. Same kind of language from her side, I guess I never realized what I was dealing with: a person who is always right and never apologizes. She actually said during one of our fights in Nov or Dec last year: "I have always been right."

I know this sounds whiny and maybe a bit resentful. I have not had a chance to vent for a while. I need to get out of the house and talk to some of my buddies again, but I have had a few minor health issues unrelated to this, so I felt too tired to go out a lot.

[AnotherNightmare]

I decided to change my signature to this thread, so this is the link to my previous thread:

Previous Thread: Retrouvaille saved me

[Arwen_in_NJ]

is your W having a mid-life crisis? Age seems about right, and so does the behavior....

[AnotherNightmare]

Thank you for your comment, Arwen. I have thought about MLC a lot, but my conclusion was no, primarily because the situations now and 12 years ago were so similar. That would mean she either has been in MLC for 12 years or she is in MLC for the 2nd time. To date, she has not apologized for the PA 12 years ago and still blames me for it. Same as now.

Based on what I know about her childhood, I believe the truth can be found somewhere in her years as a teenager. First of all, she has 2 sisters and 1 brother. All of them are different from her, a lot more like her parents. They stayed home, married the first man/woman they met, while my W is the rebel, the "black sheep". She lived with her aunt, who was an elementary school teacher and stayed single. AFAIK, they had tons of fights about her staying out late, going out with boys early, trying to become independant as quickly as possible. I believe at about age 16 she moved back to her parents, because the fights with her aunt became unbearable.

I am not a psychologist, but my explanation is that with marrying me, someone who is more like her siblings, maybe a little more ambitious in terms of career, she felt she lost her independance, typically something men fear a lot more. But maybe that is a trait single women like her aunt have as well, and she adopted that when living with her despite the love/hate relationship they had. In a love relationship, there will be dependance, healthy dependance. You need to let your S care for you, as much as you care for your S. That is what love means.
But if you are afraid to become dependant, you struggle with that and you blame your S for caring for you. When I talked to my IC, I mentioned to her that I did want to show my dependance, that I denied that I have a need to be cared for, even though I know I like it. Asked for the reasons, I said because I know my W hates dependance. So of course, there is a question: is it her or is it me? It is probably both of us. I believe she does hate dependance and that is why she tries to break out of this M, it would be evidence for her independance, but there were a few occasions when she needed me. But at that point I think I was already convinced that she did not want to be cared for. So I neglected her, left her alone. This was further proof to her that depending on someone else hurts and creates pain, even though I have acknowledged that to her and sincerely apologized for my behavior. But the vicious cycle had already spun out of control...

So again, I do not think it is MLC, even though the high school thing and her behavior point in that direction.

In any case, what would be difference? The next step has to be permanently ending the affair. After that we will go from there.

[tryingtilDorR]

AN-

I have struggled with many of the same issues as you regarding no-contact and an EA. My W also thinks that she can be 'friends' with this person and that occasional contact isn't a problem.

The issue I have is that my W considers us 'separated' and therefore I don't really have a lot of leverage. I had made an ultimatum for No Contact a few months back which is what led to this 'separated' state, even though she claims she has no feelings for him but can't promise she won't talk to OM ever.

I just noticed they texted each other Friday.

We also went to Retro early this year - it woke me up and I recognized things I needed to change but didn't have much impact on her.