WAW and 4 kids

[AnotherNightmare]

Hey Trying,

I am very glad for you it worked, it actually worked so quickly. A word of caution though: you need to stay in this modus operandi for a while. Keep it going and good luck,

AN

[tryingtilDorR]

Things have backtracked a bit since my last post. I will fill in details later, but basically she has gone back to the other room and is being her 'normal' self (cold/distant). There was a flare-up over something my daughter said to her that was the catalyst for reversing the momentum, and she also spent the weekend at toxic-friend's house which also contributed I believe.
I have continued with my attitude of whatever happens, happens, etc and just acting as-if for now.

However, I want to get feedback on something specific. I caught her talking to OM again back in May/early June and confronted her at that time. This is when she started sleeping in other room. At the time I assumed her cell phone was being used for this since she was not showing me the bill.

She now shows me the bills starting with July and going forward but won't show me prior months. I assumed it was because she didn't want me to see how much she talked to OM then, even though I had proof and had already busted her. I figured I couldn't control what happened int he past anyway, but I would use the bills as proof and confirmation that things were moving in the right direction going forward.

I just realized that she had been using a pre-paid phone for this after reviewing my prior evidence. Therefore, showing me the cell phone bill proves nothing.

I haven't confronted her about it yet. I was thinking my options were:

a) do nothing and keep ignoring her/OM
b) now that I know she has another way to communicate, tell her I know about this and don't approve
c) ask her to show me pre-paid phone/etc.

(c) probably doesn't help since she can always get a different phone.

On the other hand, she may have stopped communicating with him since I have cut off the convenient ways to talk to OM (her car and our house). I suspect I don't know the whole story (again).

[Coach]

[quoteI haven't confronted her about it yet. I was thinking my options were:

a) do nothing and keep ignoring her/OM
b) now that I know she has another way to communicate, tell her I know about this and don't approve
c) ask This is non-negotiable you will see the phone and disard it. her to show me pre-paid phone/etc.

(c) probably doesn't help since she can always get a different phone.
On the other hand, she may have stopped communicating with him since I have cut off the convenient ways to talk to OM (her car and our house). I suspect I don't know the whole story (again).
] [/quote]

"Wife, One of the things that we need to cover since I won't share my wife is a transparency plan. Ronald Reagan said it best, "Trust but verify." So we both need to be transparent about our cell phones, we will share phone bills and have access to each others phones at all times, I know you have a pay as you go phone which you need to show me right now, we will trade passwords on e-mail accounts to have complete transparency."



Go back to the actions that were getting a positive result.

[tryingtilDorR]

Thanks Coach. I know what to do. I haven't brought it up today because I have another dilemma. She planned a weekend trip with our kids and some others in her family. It is the type of thing I would have always been welcome to attend. It is something we have done every year but usually in the middle of the summer when I might be working, but I usually come for at least part of the time.

She told me today:

"I am only INVITING you because I thought the kids would want you there"

My Response: I don't need to be invited to go somewhere where my family is especially on a holiday weekend when I don't have other plans.

"We aren't sleeping in the same bed, which is why this is a big problem if you go. I would have a good time if you weren't there because we argue/fight" I think she is worried about what relatives might see, etc.

My Response: I am not fighting with you. In fact, right now YOU are the one arguing about things not me.

I tried to not engage her and just drop the subject. She is really nasty today - I think stress of going on the trip is the cause.

I really want to go, but she may be irritated all weekend because I am there but I am going to go anyway and have fun with the kids regardless of her attitude. It is sad, because with just a slight adjustment in her attitude this would be a fine weekend. Maybe it still can be. I am not going to walk on eggshells, just try to do my thing and have a good time.

[1853dave]

Your responses sounded like something I would have said early on in my sitch.

You don't have to tell her you don't need to be invited. Just say something neutral like, "That's ok. I want to be with the kids anyway."

The other response about the fighting - could be more like "I just plan to have fun with the family - that's all."

It sounds a bit challenging when you justify your reasons. Also does when you say "You're the one arguing..." This sounds a bit like the beginning of an arguement.

Please don't misread me - I TOTALLY agree with you, and your words. I could have that very same discussion with MY W. I have been learning to control my defensiveness, and rather respond with friendy or neutral responses.

This isn't a matter of proving who is right - we all know who is right, and it doesn't matter anyway - it's a matter of changing our behaviors in an order to turn down the heat at this point, and improve the situation.

Like Coach said, go back to the actions that were getting a positive result. That alone is consistent, solid advice. Always.

Hey, good luck. Keep posting, and be cool. My biggest early improvements took place when I dropped the defensiveness, and stopped justifying what I was doing. Yes, it's hard to do, but remember what Michelle says, would you rather be right, or be married?

[tryingtilDorR]

dave - thanks for your help and perspective on how my comments come accross. It is really hard to see this yourself until it gets pointed out like this so this will help me.

I will definitely keep the following in mind - I feel like I am a 'veteran' of some sorts at all this but I know I slip up a lot due to lack of discipline:

respond with friendy or neutral responses.

This isn't a matter of proving who is right - we all know who is right, and it doesn't matter anyway - it's a matter of changing our behaviors in an order to turn down the heat at this point, and improve the situation.

would you rather be right, or be married?

Interesting happenings this weekend. I stated above that I hadn't mentioned the fact that I knew about the pre-paid phone. I was waiting to bring it up at a time when it was neccessary and try to get through the weeked without R talks or any other controversy. She got nasty the first night when she told me she wanted me to sleep on the couch and I asked if I could just stay in the room with her because I knew I would sleep a lot better. We had our kids and their friends there as well and I didn't want to answer questions about why I wasn't in the room with her. She got angry and said that at home she sleeps in another room and that up there I would do it, and I just went to the couch. there was a pull-out couch in the bedroom as well that I could have usd but she didn't want me in the room at all. Then SIL went in to ask her what her problem was and that didn't help.

Anyway, the next day we were relaxing and I told her I was sorry about the argument but I was just trying to find a more comfortable place to sleep, and not trying to muscle my way into her bed, etc etc (she knows this). She then proceeded to say something to this effect:

Mrs T: It is over and you just don't want to accept it. We will need to separate, and you won't be able to afford paying me what I will get if you keep our house so we will have to sell it.

T: If you wan't to D that is your choice. I am just sorry we never really did much work to save the M since D will be harder on everyone than we can imagine and our kids' standard of living will suffer. We can both live in smaller houses - no big deal.

Mrs T: There is nothing to work on. It has been done for a while. kids are fine after D in many cases.

T: It is impossible for you to want to try to work on it when you have never really let go of OM. With him in the picture there has been NO possibility to work on this and it is too bad for all of us. Oh well. Its sad.

Mrs T: OM has never had anything to do with this (script). It (EA) has ended now.

T (in a very calm nice voice): I know you have never stopped talking to him last spring, and that you also went to the trouble to get another phone so that you could keep the affair going. If you are going to this amount of trouble to hide the R with OM then it HAS to have had an impact on your desire to work on the M. I have known about the phone but at this point I know you are making your choice and that there is nothing much I can do about it but I won't accept an OM in your life.

Mrs T then got very quiet and her wheels were spinning - she started challenging what I knew about phone and how I knew and I convinced her I knew what I was talking about. Also, in response to my statement about the fact that SHE went to the trouble to get a pre-paid phone proves the importance of the EA in her life, her response was that the phone was given to her by a friend, which means the OM (none of her close friends would help her continue the EA - she has never been fully up front with them on it). She also stated that she doesn't have it anymore, so it will be harder to have her show it to me if this is her stance. I will press on this more later when the time is right. I have a feeling she still has it but doesn't use it anymore, but just guessing.

I felt very detatched and unemotional and was just conveying what I knew to be the facts and some of my opinions on why she wouldn't work on M. After that point I just dropped the subject and acted 'as if' since the kids came back around.

the funny thing was that after that point we had a really nice time that evening and the next day. We spent more time with each other and talked in that 24 hours than we had in a long time. Joking, watching TV together, enjoying our kids, etc. It turned out to be a pretty enjoyable and memorable weekend for our family.

If you didn't know what was going on it would have looked like a normal married couple like we were a couple of years back for the most part, except for the fact that I slept on the couch again but I returned to her bed early in the morning when kids were stirring without a complaint from her really.

She sounds like she has gotten much more aggressive about leaving on the one hand (she saw a L also), but that might be a GOOD thing since she is facing more of the reality of what D would look like and maybe she is seeing the ugly side of it more, rather than just running away to be 'free'??

I have also talked to my D15 and S17 about being careful what they say to W about our M/R. they have both said things to her that have made her upset by just acknowledging that they hear stuff which seems to be the catalyst for her more aggressive stance on separating.

I told them that if they are upset about something please just talk to me initially because W is going through a tough time. I think they will comply. I told them both that we are having problems right now but that many marriages do, and that I am trying hard to keep M together and that they should bear with us, and if they hear something they don't like or understand to talk to me about it (I am trying to make sure that they don't hear anything going forward between me and W anyway).

One other thing I realized this weekend was how relaxed and at-ease I was, just enjoing hanging around with the family. It is something I took for granted before, but with all of the turmoil as well as the work I have done with my IC I have a different outlook on just about everything now, for the better. W notices and mentions it (that I am different, but doesn't acknowlege whether it is good or bad but I know it is good for me and our kids).

I'll be observing closely and trying to keep the same thing going since it seemed like things are moving in the right direction again. I feel detatched enough and need to keep the tension down, but I am prepared for a reversal in the situation at any minute.

[1853dave]

Hey,

Just keep track of what behaviors work and what behaviors don't. If you are not keeping a solutions journal, now is the time to start. A journal will allow you to document everything each day - and later you can review your successes and failures and look for trends. It really is helpful.

That stuff about "It is over and you just don't want to accept it." and "It's been done for a while" - all script. She probably REALLY does feel that way right now - or only MAYBE feels that way - but we have all heard those words here too. I have heard them before, and many months pass, things improve, and then I heard them again. Up and down. Rollercoaster.

I'm waiting for my W to come around - she's had it pretty easy, but with the D day a month away, I hope the realities set in and she rethinks her foolish stand. She is about to plunge herself into a very low standard of living, and she doesn't believe it. Any 3rd grader can do the math and predict this - but she thinks she'll just go living on as she does now.

I have changed in a DB sort of way - friends at work have noticed, and my DB counselor has seen me change from 9 months ago. I know the W has seen it too, but she doesn't want to accept it - she still has the "grass is greener" attitude. I hope she has an awakening soon...my kids welfare are at stake too.

Be careful challenging her - mine doesn't have an OM, so I don't have any advice for that. Mine acts more like a midlife crisis...but I understand that by now it doesn't matter, the DBing is the same.

I will say that if you are both still at home, I would be careful not to push her out of the house - I think my physical separation hurt things for me more than anything. She got a taste of "freedom" which she seems to like - she won't be very free when she's goes from a stay at home mom to bagging groceries full time, and possibly having to quit school, and renting a small apartment, because after the D she will have no money to live on.

Her choice, though.

[tryingtilDorR]

I agree that having W staying in the house is better than if they leave, although my IC hasn't always agreed. She said that without a separation sometimes the conflicts and stress of being around each other causes the situation to deteriorate more. I agree that this has happened in my situation, but if you really practice DB it shouldn't be the case as much I think looking back over the events of the past 9 months.

My W has some unrealistic expectations about what D would be like financially for her just like yours I think. She talked to a L a week ago. I lost my job last November and got a lower-paying one that is less stressful and much more flexible, which is great, but she thinks I can just go out an get another job that pays what I was making before, but it isn't that easy in this economy. I have told her eventually I would look for something that paid more, but if we D I would probably just hold on to this job given the flexibility.

[1853dave]

Yeah, unrealistic is right! My W wants me to change careers and get a higher paying job - and I made 80K last year, have benefits, been with employer for 15 yrs... Sure, I'll just dump this one and get another... That, and she wants me to get a 2nd job - yet she has had no income of her own for 9 years...

Basically, her ideal situation is that I work 2 jobs, and she gets to go to nursing school, take the summers off, etc.

I guess I was being unfair the whole time...

Separation, I have read, can be good in some instances - it might keep the anger down, it allows the giving of space, etc. However, it is also "out of sight, out of mind" as in my case, yet the court ordered I give her $3222 a month, and I keep $500 a month. So, she had it made all year long. No "controlling" husband around, free money every month, she doesn't have to work... Sounds good, huh?

She's about to be hit on the head with the anvil of reality. Honestly, I feel bad for her. It doesn't have to be this way.

[tryingtilDorR]

In my case she has worked 2 days/week for 20 years because we could afford to have her work less. If she worked full time she would make about 15% less than I do. I have talked to 2 lawyers and they both said that a judge would expect her to work full time most likely when it comes to calculating support, given the age of our kids (youngest is 11 in 2 weeks). The kids aren't babies anymore that need a mom at home (has been nice however).

She sees it differently - she wants to work less and have me pay her more so she can have her free time, which she uses to work out, shop, and talk to OM for hours a day!