I don't think we have much disagreement here. But I take exception to the use of the words "infidelity" and "cheating". I am not recommending either and my wife and I do not cheat on each other.
The issue of cheating is one of lying, and a betrayal of trust. Open relationships are just that - they mean that we are open about what we want and do. We NEVER condone cheating and I would be terribly hurt if my wife cheated on me.
....Monogamy may be a good or bad thing, but like polyamorous relationships, should not be exempt from critical analysis. And for those who find that they were married only to find that they find monogamy nearly impossible, and open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it.
Dear Bob48;
Again, if it works for you and your wife, I am glad.
I also think that I understand what you are saying (and agree in some situations) when you say "...open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it." However, if the h & w are that emotionally together, then I think they should be able to work on curing their underlying problems that caused the SSM situation.
I used the word cheating and infedelity because to me an SSM is a mariage in crisis; one that has gone terrible wrong for some reason. This forum is all about those in an SSM. A marriage (to me) does involve at least at the beginning a pledge to forsake others.
My experience is that I was in a SSM, because me wife was angry at me and didn't want to have sex with me any longer or if we did have sex, she needed to emotionally hurt me to create a feeling of emotinal distance. She told me that if I had divorced her, she would not have wanted to have sex with anyone else. She told our sex therapist that she has never masturbated in her entire life and I believe her. She truly was LD compared to me and her anger at me ultimately turned LD into ND.
In such a situation if it did not change and we remained married, I doubt that her anger at me would have allowed her to say, "yes dear go off to a swingers party and have sex with others." I doubt that she would have wanted to have sex with others as well. So for me an open marriage was not a likely an option. I could be wrong, but don't think in our case I am.
I seriously doubt that an open marriage is an option for many SSM's, unless the HD person is incrediblly financially well off and the LD person is financially dependent. Even then an open marriage would not be a truly free decision mutually arrived at. There are still some Catholics that don't believe in divorce (but not many) and so for them, maybe it is an option. However, those that I know who don't believe in divorce, would probably view the lack of sex as perhaps their physical trial on earth that they must endure to prove their faith.
Sex with another woman would have been an option in my SMM situation. But as you say it would have been cheating on my wife. I believe you when you say that you and your wife do not "cheat" on each other. However in my case, had I just had sex with another woman without tellng my wife, or had I pressured her into saying to me "...yes go have sex with some other woman" it would not be the type of "open marriage" you are describing or that works for others.
Actually to use your words, "...if h & w can accept it." So while it may work for some, it is just too beyond my experience to see it as an option for me or many others I know who are in SSM's. Again, that doesn't mean it isn't an option for some. Which is why it is good to discuss.
I also think that if my wife had given me the freedom to have sex with other women, such sex would have prevented the healing that ultimatly occurred in my marriage. I feel that for me, trying an open marriage to get the sex and intimacy I needed would have created greater barriers to healing my marriage. It might have allowed me to preserve the illusion of marriage or redefined the marriage to my wife, but I don't think I would have been motivated to fix the marriage or end it and that horrible choice probably was what motivated my wife to forgive me and change the way she treated me.
So, yes, I think we are in agreement that an open marriage may work for some. However, I feel that my experience is that in an SSM there is probably anger, hate, shame, or pain that impeds sex between a husband and wife.
If there is love and respect in the marriage, but the reason for the SSM is perhaps medical on the part of one, then maybe an open marriage and sex with others might be an option. However, if find it hard to believe that a medical condition could prevent all forms of sexual contact, whether it involves, hands, mouth, genitals or even rubbing of two bodies together.
As you say, an open marraige is an option for some, but one that probably needs to come from a different starting point than most SSM's, which did have healthy sex at some point, but at some point the sex stopped or became unhealthy.
I can also say that I mentally understand the concept of marriage as being more than just love & sex between two people. I understand that it is about children, property, community roles, community status and family responsibilities. In other cultures, sexual fulfilment and love may be a trivial part of "marriage." In such situations, if both parties agree, sex with others may make a lot of sense and allow the marriage to fulfill its other functions. I can even understand how if that is the marital starting point, that sex, novelty and love can be present at the beginning and that sexual desire can wane after time allowing for the open marriage to fulfill the sexual needs of one or both partners.
You can call me brainwashed, old fashioned or traditional. I married my wife for love with the expectation that our love and shared values would see us through the hard times. To me sex, if done the way I prefer, is about making & building love between two people. As such, I can't imagine feeling good about my wife sexually sharing herself with anyone else. To me sex with my wife is about bonding with her and feeling close in a way that increases intimacy. I want sex to be a special emotional experience with someone I care deeply about. I can understand sex as a physical need.
If I were completely paralized (all extremidies and mouth), then maybe I would feel differently, if my wife were the high desire partner. I know that I want her to be happy.
Again, I think that some things we agree on, even if we come from different paths.
I hope that you and your wife enjoy each other and find happiness.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
I am currently struggling with this same issue on my own thread...
My W started pressuring me to open up the marriage because of her being bi, and it very nearly destroyed us. We are together now, but living in limbo. Despite me having given her permission to have other partners, that I know of she hasn't. Although I know she is actively looking. She gave me permission too, but I have decided to take the high road and not pursue anything because I know that it would just make things worse for our M. (The only reason I have agreed to this arrangement, is because after reading these forums I have come to realize that in a way she needs to discover what she truly wants before she decides to truly commit to the marriage. Like WAW who find OM and need to choose on their own to leave them, she needs to choose on her own to end this crazy game she wants to play). She herself is actively looking, but hasn't done it yet, which leads me to believe she herself is still unsure. She has expressed that she finds the STD's terrifying, and finds it hard to find people she likes(whatever that means). After being in this board I have truly started to believe that most of our sex problems probably stem from basic marriage issues. I have been trying to work it out, but it has been almost two months since either of us has had sex with anyone. We are both very HD people, but she doesn't feel comfortable with me. Some days I think it's because she lives in this fog from the constant stream of suitors that email her profile online. So here we are, both frustrated, trying to make this marriage work, but almost stuck in limbo. We have a great friendship, and through DB I have cut the number of fights, and disagreements. Yet the intimacy is still missing. This may sound crazy but I feel like we fix our marriage issues the intimacy will come back, and then the need to go outside will leave. It constantly feels like I am racing against the clock, trying to regain the intimacy before she finds someone out there. I really don't know how I would react if there was a PA. It really scares me, although I actively encourage her to pursue it. I know that if I tell her to stop it will just push her deeper, almost as if there was an OM or OW involved. So I want her to make a choice hopefully before a PA occurs...
Greenblue - I want to make clear that I never have and never will suggest that an open relationship is some kind of cure all, or will work for many people.
I think your situation is somewhat unique in that your wife is bi, and that means she has very strong needs that can only be met by a woman. Yes, she can attempt to ignore those needs, but there may be a cost to her doing so.
There are numerous examples of people who are bi, who satisfy their Same Sex needs on occasions, but because they value their spouse and their family life, maintain a very healthy marriage. Perhaps if you examined that a little more deeply you wouldn't be so scared about it.
It is very possible that your wife will love you all the more knowing that you have come to terms with her sexuality, which she may well have been struggling with for many years.
On the other hand, it is just possible that your wife is actually gay, and is rounding herself down to bi. If that is so, she may never be ready for a sexual relationship with you. At that point you have to look at your life and figure out how to proceed. Could you be happy if she were seeing people outside your marriage and you were too? Is that something you would be willing to investigate?
bob
divorced in 2003 Married in 12/2005 born 1948 wife born 1958 divorced in 2001
=============== I also think that I understand what you are saying (and agree in some situations) when you say "...open relationship is a hell of a lot better than a divorce if h & w can accept it." However, if the h & w are that emotionally together, then I think they should be able to work on curing their underlying problems that caused the SSM situation. ==============================
Hard to say. It is possible that the SSM situation is a result of someone just not having much of a sex drive. If you accept the premise that the cause is something in the relationship itself, then it is always good to work those issues out, obviously. But many times the very difference between a wife's needs and that of the husbands causes some of the issues that ultimately pushes the couple apart. In other words, it is essential to be able to differentiate between the cause and the effect, and that is not always transparent.
I used the word cheating and infedelity because to me an SSM is a mariage in crisis; one that has gone terrible wrong for some reason. This forum is all about those in an SSM. A marriage (to me) does involve at least at the beginning a pledge to forsake others.
Again, marriage can mean forsaking all others or it can mean accepting occasional dalliances. It really depends on what the couple wants.
Some people get into a marriage not appreciating the price of monogamy. After a few years of being faithful it may not feel right to that person.
Some open relationships get there by evolution, and others begin that way.
======================================
She told our sex therapist that she has never masturbated in her entire life and I believe her. She truly was LD compared to me and her anger at me ultimately turned LD into ND.
=================================================== My hunch is that based on your description of her, she may have used anger issues as a disguise to escape from sex and that her agenda (either consciously or unconsciously) was to take sex out of your marriage.
========================================================== I doubt that she would have wanted to have sex with others as well. So for me an open marriage was not a likely an option. I could be wrong, but don't think in our case I am.
========================================== My personal opinion is that abstaining from sex without mutual consent is cheating just as much as having sex outside the marriage without telling someone is cheating.
I don't think that you need consent if someone refuses to have sex. And, I don't think that the person with no or low desire needs to want to have an outside relationship in order for you to have one.
===========================================
Sex with another woman would have been an option in my SMM situation. But as you say it would have been cheating on my wife. I believe you when you say that you and your wife do not "cheat" on each other. However in my case, had I just had sex with another woman without tellng my wife, or had I pressured her into saying to me "...yes go have sex with some other woman" it would not be the type of "open marriage" you are describing or that works for others. ========================================================
First, I am not suggesting that an open marriage would work for you. I haven't a clue whether it would or not.
Secondly, I don't advocate your "cheating" on your wife. I think that it is a matter of saying, look, I had every reason to believe I would have a decent sex life in our marriage. It is something I want or need. Tell me what we need to do to get our sex life back to where I need it.
Then, if that doesn't work, it is time to say that you value your marriage and love your wife, but you are going to seek some other companion for sex from time to time. Period. You don't need consent and your wife doesn't need to be outside your marriage in order to keep it even.
I also think that if my wife had given me the freedom to have sex with other women, such sex would have prevented the healing that ultimatly occurred in my marriage. ==================================================
If you now have a relationship that you are happy with, then you have obviously made the right choice. Are you having regular sex now? Or are you resigned to the fate of having infrequent or no sex for peace in the house?
I am currently struggling with this same issue on my own thread...
My W started pressuring me to open up the marriage because of her being bi, and it very nearly destroyed us. We are together now, but living in limbo. Despite me having given her permission to have other partners, that I know of she hasn't. Although I know she is actively looking. She gave me permission too, but I have decided to take the high road and not pursue anything because I know that it would just make things worse for our M. (The only reason I have agreed to this arrangement, is because after reading these forums I have come to realize that in a way she needs to discover what she truly wants before she decides to truly commit to the marriage. Like WAW who find OM and need to choose on their own to leave them, she needs to choose on her own to end this crazy game she wants to play). She herself is actively looking, but hasn't done it yet, which leads me to believe she herself is still unsure.
... I have been trying to work it out, but it has been almost two months since either of us has had sex with anyone. We are both very HD people, but she doesn't feel comfortable with me.
... We have a great friendship, and through DB I have cut the number of fights, and disagreements.
....I feel like we fix our marriage issues the intimacy will come back, and then the need to go outside will leave.
...I know that if I tell her to stop it will just push her deeper, almost as if there was an OM or OW involved. So I want her to make a choice hopefully before a PA occurs...
insane yes I know...
Not insane at all. I think that you have done an incredible 180. You seem to understand the issues very well and and are remaining in contact, but not pushing her away from you. You are allowing her to figure out what she is missing. MWD helped me cut back on the fighting as well.
I think that if she does figure out this is her mid life crisis or whatever, and comes back to you, that you will be able to rebuild the intimacy and your relationship.
While I am not sure I would have given her permission to take a lover, it sounds like it has given her one less thing to rebel against you about.
Good luck to you.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
....Hard to say. It is possible that the SSM situation is a result of someone just not having much of a sex drive. If you accept the premise that the cause is something in the relationship itself, then it is always good to work those issues out, obviously. But many times the very difference between a wife's needs and that of the husbands causes some of the issues that ultimately pushes the couple apart. In other words, it is essential to be able to differentiate between the cause and the effect, and that is not always transparent.
....My hunch is that based on your description of her, she may have used anger issues as a disguise to escape from sex and that her agenda (either consciously or unconsciously) was to take sex out of your marriage.
....My personal opinion is that abstaining from sex without mutual consent is cheating just as much as having sex outside the marriage without telling someone is cheating.
....I don't think that you need consent if someone refuses to have sex. And, I don't think that the person with no or low desire needs to want to have an outside relationship in order for you to have one.
...If you now have a relationship that you are happy with, then you have obviously made the right choice. Are you having regular sex now? Or are you resigned to the fate of having infrequent or no sex for peace in the house?
An interesting book on women and a declining libido is the book Still Sexy after All these Years. It is an interview of thousands of women across all ethnic, economic backgrounds in the US. Yes, for some women their libido does decline, for others it doesn't need to or they can find sensuality and intimacy in other ways as they mature.
For me, my wife & I did have an active sex drive when we first married, it just declined. Part of it was she withdrew emotionally from the marriage when she felt hurt. I then withdrew to work on my career to provide more for her and my children and to get praise from coworkers for my skill at work. The lack of emotional support at home drove me to the office where I got emotional support. That caused my wife to withdraw even further emotionally from me and reinforced her anger. We were in a downward spiral for a long time, until I reached my breaking point.
Affairs, would have just complicated the healing process and possible prevented the reconciliation that happened in therapy. I found that touch or physcial communication was a very powerful tool in rebuilding our relationship.
I am very happy with our current relationship. Yes we have been having sex multiple times a week; regularly for about a year. Our relationship is very strong. I honestly didn't expect to be still married to my wife by now, when we started sex therapy and marriage counseling.
I work at trying to make my wife feel loved by providing multiple acts of devotion and quality time each day. I go out of my way to do things for her and talk to her about what happened with her day and what is going to happen that is important to her later in the week. Which is what she needs to feel loved.
In return she has worked at making me feel loved.
>43 years of marriage--My wife and I are now closer than we have been in decades. I believe that my SSM is over.
The situation that you described seems to be a little different than what I was talking about.
Firstly, you wanted more sex in your relationship and obviously your wife respected your wishes and agreed that that kind of change would be beneficial to your marriage.
I never would suggest that someone whose wife owned her part of the problem should be required to tolerate an open relationship if she didn't want to. And you may be right that you wouldn't have reached the obviously satisfying point that you did if you pursued an outside liaison.
In my prior marriage, my wife felt that having sex more than a couple times a month was excessive and unreasonable. And even that was something that she couldn't agree to or want. It eventually came down to a couple of times a year. And when we finally did go to therapy, it was so she could fix me. At least that was her perspective.
I would have hoped it was obvious that I didn't believe that when a husband thinks he is being neglected at home that it was ok for him to unilaterally decide to open up the relationship.
I think it would be ok to open that topic for discussion with his wife as a possible solution. But the road to travel is the one both parties feel they can live with.
Incidentally, your description of how your marriage began to unwind is a familiar story. H & W begin to lead more separate lives in order to avoid conflict and their connection begins to dissolve. I congratulate you for recognizing that and working with your W to repair the damage. It would have been nice for me and our child and probably my ex if she had been similarly open to a better and more fulfilling marriage. My daughter still feels the pain, and as happily married as I am now, I do to sometimes.
divorced in 2003 Married in 12/2005 born 1948 wife born 1958 divorced in 2001
