Detaching 101??

[fooled again]

Last thread was no longer appropriate so I decided to start a new one (here's the link to my last thread Helping OW??).

I did get a campsite for Sat night & called H as he had volunteered to bring out the camper for me - I don't have a hitch on my new truck & I think H wasn't keen on swapping cars (hard to explain to OW??). He came, we set up the camper, then he left for his game, saying he would be back later that evening (he had asked me if he could join me that night after his game).

I enjoyed my day, met some really nice people and relaxed, taking time for myself and not having to take care of anyone else (except the dog). By 10:30 pm I had pretty much resigned myself to the thought that H was not coming - they close the gates to campsite 11:00 pm. I remember looking up at the stars and making my usual wish and I said a little prayer at the same time. I offered to sacrifice being with H tonight if it helped bring him home sooner. That I would be okay. I had a little cry and then I was okay. 15 minutes later he pulled into the site.

We had a pleasant night, put more wood on the fire, opened another bottle of wine and talked about alot of things, but nothing at all about us. He asked why I had such a small fire, I said it was because it was just me & I didn't need a huge fire. He said "You didn't think I was coming." I said that I wasn't sure, I thought he might have wanted to stay & hang w/ his friends & I would have been okay. Then I said "But I'm really glad you came." He said he was too.

He talked to me about some of his sports friends, something he rarely ever does with me. He has always kept his "newish" friends separate from me (most of his old friends are no longer part of his life). I knew a few names, but I didn't know anything about them. Last night it was as if he was filling me in a bit on that part of his life. I'm trying not to make too much of it, but it made me feel a bit hopeful for H to be letting into his life a bit more, to hear him talk about people he spends time w/, their personalities, his relationships with them.

However, in listening I realized that a couple of these guys have some pretty serious drinking/drug/money problems. H's attitudes sounded very strange to me, like a teenager's. At one point I thought to myself, "I really hope you can hear what you are saying about them. I hope you can see the parallels between yourself and them." Of course I said none of these things. This was not the first time he has done this; about a week ago he talked to me about his friend (who I do know) whose girlfriend is cheating on him.

But last night was a bit scary too, to be honest, as it was one of the few times he has opened up enough for me to catch a real glimpse of his MLC-mind and the people he is surrounding himself with. He seems to just party when he is not with me, plays his sport & drinks & hangs out with those guys - everything else does not exist, his problems, his responsibilities, even the people who love him. Those seem to disappear from his mind when he is not near me.

Of course I don't know what H is doing when he is with OW, but I can't imagine that that scene is really good right now, and there is probably a lot of pressure being applied there by OW. I am trying to be an open book to H, I am trying to make him feel it's safe to talk to me. If it has to start by him telling me about his friends and moving from there to maybe work, family, and, hopefully, finally to us, then I will do what I can to lay the groundwork and just listen. Say less, listen more. Accept, don't criticize or judge. Detach and watch him struggle through his MLC, knowing I can do little to help him. Blech

I think it will be a long time before H is ready to talk honestly with me about our R and his R with OW. The last thing I want is more lies, more deception. I know if I ask, he'll lie. So I simply assume that he is seeing OW still, maybe not having sex w/ her as she has issues with that, but still trying to figure out what he wants. I wrote somewhere in a post that I don't trust H now, so I'm not even going to try to trust him. It takes a lot of pressure off me, to stop trying to do something that would impossible for me to do anyway. When H tells me what he is doing or has done, I will hazard that 50% of the time he is lying because he is seeing OW (it would be nice if it was less).

Communication between OW and I has ceased. After calling her last week and getting no response, I decided I will just leave it. The less involved I am the better. Their relationship has to crash and burn on it's own without my interference or H may think it ended because of me. I would hate to have him come home to me but regret the end of his affair and have him blame me and mourn it for longer than necessary, or maybe even go back to her.

This detaching is sooooooo hard, especially after ML last night. And what's strange is that we are so connected, it is so natural and H can be very open w/ me when we ML, yet he can be so distant & closed off when we are just together. At one point last night I was doing something he likes very much & H went "Hmmh" like he just had an interesting thought. I asked what was that? He said "We can do this, and we're not even talking, I'm not telling you what to do." I hoped that it was him acknowledging that our connection, though very physical at that moment, was maybe even more than that. I didn't ask him what he meant (this is a weakness of mine), plus there were other more pressing matters to attend to

We sat on the beach today for a couple of hours and I was watching all the happy families having fun together. I saw one family on a boat, a boat H would have very much liked to own & I thought about what H has thrown away during all of this. H would have loved to swap places w/ that family at one time, would have in a heartbeat, the boat, the beautiful wife, the two lovely kids, probably a nice house & a contented life. But now H literally has nothing, less than nothing. I've even been thinking of suggesting that we sell the house to get us out of debt, but I won't go there until H gives some indication as to where he is headed. At least we still have the house, I thank God for that. It's the only thing we have left.

I asked H a couple of things about what was happening w/ his family, his sister his parents, etc. I know more about their lives than he does. I filled him in on a few things. He acknowledged that it's been far too long since he talked to them & he will call his sister. He doesn't talk much to his family anymore, and they used to be such a huge, important part of his life. They have their problems too, like everyone, but they are kind, loving people and I know I need them in my life. Now, he doesn't talk to anyone, even his parents rarely hear from him. So back to the beach... I asked H if he ever thought about moving closer to family. He said not really. I said to him that I feel as though I am missing so much. He asked if I meant with my parents? I said yes, and with his family too. I then asked, what he would do if one of his parents got sick, or more likely 'when'. He said he hadn't really thought about that - of course not, he's only thinking about himself right now, partying, having an affair, spending money he doesn't have, doing whatever he wants on a whim.

It's as though he completely forgets about his family. I didn't come right out and tell him that I wanted to move close to family, but I think he understood that the thought was crossing my mind more and more. In a little over a week, H will go pick up D who has been visiting both grandparents & other family. He will stay with his parents and see some of his siblings. I don't expect H to come back a changed man, but I simply can't see H living out the rest of his life as a stranger to his family. Eventually he will reconnect with them and maybe, just maybe, that too will lead him back to me.

My recent project is going back and reading all of BFM's old posts. Her sitch is so much like mine that I feel that I can maybe learn her detachment by reading her thoughts - many times I could have written the post myself.

So for now I am back to detaching. Starting with the basics all over again. Talk (no R talk), touch, getting to know each other. I don't know my H anymore, talking to him made me realize that. Likely he feels the same way about me. Will I ever know him again? I sure hope he lets me...

FA

[Tipper]

Fooled Again,
Hey there just wanted to pop in & comment on how you were saying it is like you have seen a glimps into the MLCers mind for the first time.

I felt the same way when I got to finally realize the truth about my H's time away and what he has been doing and with who. It is totally like a teenager who is still trying to figure out who they are and fit in at all costs.

My H is also constently hanging out with younger guys, groupies, alcoholics, and druggies or gamblers. The way they all spend thier money to me is disgusting.

As your H and mine are both still in me-mode these are the people they are gonna want to be around unfortunately.

My H also has lost most all of our old friends, but I still hang with them all and refuse to stop just becuase he doesnt want to. These friends are true and were so there for me when I was all alone - i cant abandon them just to work on my M. My H also thinks that these new friends are the best and he says they give him no drama. One of these days, I think H will see them for what they are as they all start to grow up.

There are still so many similarities with in our situations - (other than - I have no kids), I just love to read your posts. So many things I am going through and thinking, you are too.

Even though my H has formally said he wants to reconcile, he still acts a lot like your H. I guess the two of us still have a long time before we will truely see the old H's attitudes & characters return. I also long to talk to H as openly as I used to, but I have to be patient.
TIPPER

[fooled again]

Hi Tipper,

I tried to reply earlier, but I lost my post and was too frustrated to retype it. Thanks for stopping by my thread. You sound good, all things considered.

I noticed you signed up for the KLA Workshop. I decided to sign up too, you know, try something different. I feel pretty lost right now, and frustrated and it's oh so tempting to just give up, and maybe in the end that's what I'll end up doing. But I know I'm not quite there - something is telling me to hang in there a bit longer.

Yeah that glimpse into the abyss was pretty scary - I really did wonder who I was talking to by the campfire on Sat night. H was like a stranger, the things he was saying. I was thinking the whole time, "Do you HEAR yourself? Do you KNOW what you sound like?" Though the time we spent together was very pleasant (including ML), I kept wondering who was this person I was with, and is he the same way w/ OW, or does he have still another persona for her? I was also thinking that H has definitely retreated back into the tunnel. How far & for how long this time is very hard to tell...

Today I was feeling very low. H hasn't called me since Sun afternoon, I didn't expect him to call that night, but hopefully sometime today. The longer it goes the more anxious I get b/c that is how I felt when he would disappear b/f when he was w/ OW. So I figure he is w/ OW - it just makes logical sense. I doubt she knows H is still coming to me for sex, though. Would I love to tell her.

H is so very, very confused and messed up, I fear that he will never find his way out of the tunnel.

FA

[Tipper]

FA,

I think we all share the same fear that you do....about questioning whether or not they will ever make it out of the dark tunnel they have dug themselves into.

I can tell you this much, from what I have seen in the times my H & I have been piecing... they have a lot of work to do to get to a point of being whole again. I can just tell that my H is still questioning his every move in life, and is very unsure of himself & his career still. But he is making slow improvements that I hope will eventually get him out of this mess.

But the damage they do while on their coaster is enormous. It is really difficult and awkward for us to face many situations with people from our past life together. I dont know if he will ever adjust.

Well hang in there. I feel you do have a reason to still have hope. I also see many similarities between your case & BFM's. They got to a happy ending, and I believe you eventually will too. Your route may be different, as any case will be... but hang in there I think you have a strong influence on your h still.
TIPPER

[fooled again]

Thanks Tipper,

I too see alot of similarities in my sitch and BFM's, though her timeline was much, much shorter. But time has no meaning in MLC-land so I know I shouldn't try to map out my H's journey. It will take as long as it takes and I guess it's up to me to decide how long I can do this. But it is hard not to search for similarities in an effort to console myself.

I keep repeating my mantra - something BFM had said many times in her posts - I have to live my life as if H is never coming back. Of course H will always be in my life b/c of D7, and as my non-DB coach said, it is never over when you have children..

FA

[fooled again]

Journaling,

Hadn't heard from H in nearly 3 days. Yesterday was really tough - I very nearly didn't make it w/out calling H or OW. But God must have been watching over me b/c He told me to use a lifeline that had been offered. It was the smartest thing I could have done. Thank you for being there for me BFM

This morning H called me on my cell & at work & left me a vmail msg. He apologized for not calling me for a few days, said he was very sorry, and then he said "I guess what happens is the longer I don't talk to you the harder it is for me to call you b/c I'm afraid of calling you. Call me back when you get a chance." I tried to call him back late in the afternoon but he didn't answer so I just left a message saying I was in meetings & training all day & I'd love to talk to him, so if he felt like calling to give me a call later after work. I said I hoped he was having a good day. My tone was light and upbeat. H hasn't called back and it's funny but I think that he won't today, maybe not even for a couple of days, who knows. That was his "touch", now he will "go" again.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he has likely been w/ OW. That has been his pattern over the past 2.5 years - whenever he was w/ OW he would be completely out of touch, he would "disappear", so it is unlikely anything has changed in that regard. And that is what I will assume is going on - the worst case scenario. As much as I want H to come back to me RIGHT NOW, I know it won't happen. I just hope and pray that this A is spiralling downward toward it's natural demise & that they are miserable when they are together.

In the meantime I know that I have to detach as much as I can. I have to step back and take care of myself and keep from getting pulled back into the triangle. I would like to be able to detach enough to be able to talk to H about logistics, money, D, the house, etc., but not have the contact that I do have w/ H mess me up so much that days later I am crying and anxiously awaiting his call/visit.

I also know that I really need to stop ML w/ H - it is very difficult for me to do and remain detached. The interesting thing is I think that H could be using it to keep me from moving on w/ my life. There is some twisted logic in that H may think he can keep me from wanting/needing someone else in my life if he comes to me and ML w/ me every week or so - forget the fact that I am still married and that I need more than just sex from an R w/ someone. But of course the MLC mind is something of a mystery, so I won't do any more speculating. I'd love to think that H wants to ML w/ me b/c OW just isn't enough for him. OW has tried to assure me that she keeps H satisfied. (Yes I too want to barf at that )

Anyway, I'm trying to keep busy but it's so hard w/ D away for another wk (it has been 2 wks). The house is so big & empty & I miss her laughter Thankfully work is very busy this week and the weather has been good so I am trying to GAL and keep from thinking about H and OW. Easier said than done...

FA

[Creed]

I'm glad that the thought has crossed your mind as to the possibility of your H using ML to keep you from moving on. It seems an impossibly devious way to treat someone that you're suppose to love, but I truly believe that many WAS do just this very thing.

Since they can't make up their mind what they want, they don't want the LBS possibly making up their mind to move on..and what better way to keep the LBS from moving on than playing with their heart strings. Unless you've told your H that ML is just physical for you, he knows that there are alot of emotions that you put into it. Thus...he keeps you 'tied' to him in an emotional way, and less likely to think about moving on yourself.

It's truly your own instinct/intuition that will have to guide you FA, but I am happy that you've considered this a strong possibility, and that you will want to think long and hard about the meaning/consequences of continuing a physical relationship with him while he plays musical beds.

I think it's FANTASTIC that you were able to reach out for help and NOT contact H or OW!! I'm so proud of you. Take each day as it comes, each hour if you have to...and pretty soon it will become easier and easier to control that urge.

[Tipper]

FA,
I think I kind of agree with what Creed has said above.

Another way to think about creeds comments would be to look at the new post by IMP at the top of the board.

Identify what patterns work and what needs to be changed. If your H knows he can keep you hanging on by a thread by ML to you, then maybe it is time to hold out on him and see what happens next.

Maybe you allready have tried this, but it is just a suggestion. Plus, then your H will probably start wondering who your seeing or getting your needs met through (even though there is no other). Not to mention it may spare you some emotional torture.
TIPPER

[cat03]

have you thought that perhaps he ML with you thoughtlessly, not realizing what it does to you? not because he wants to but because he feel badly for what he is doing to you? Keeping your distance in that dept. is prob the thing to do, it does nothing but confuse you and hurt you.
And for crying out loud, never call the ow again! I couldnt' imagen having ow telling me what she's told you! bad enough what you already know about them, you don't need anymore mental pictures burn in your mind.

Prayers your way))))) limbo sucks the life out of a person

[Creed]

How right Cat's last comment is...about LIMBO sucking the life out of you. I remember all to well how that limbo felt. I'm not saying where I'm at now is all sunny and great..it's not, not by a long shot.

But no longer being in limbo sets you free in a different way. It is a freedom of sorts..you're no longer swinging in the wind, or dog paddling in an ocean. You start to feel a sense of relief that you haven't felt in so very long. You still have the pain and grief of your marriage being hurt/damaged/perhaps destroyed, but you no longer are tied to something that has quit working, and has started to decay. I think once you let go of that decaying matter, you realize that whatever happens..divorce or reconcilation, you will be starting out with something that will have new life breathed into it.

As I reread some of the posts to you from myself and others here, it hits me how blunt and harsh they can sound.

I can probably speak for many here that that's the last thing we want to do...make you cringe in hurt yet more than you already do/have. Myself, I just want you to realize that things are rarely what they seem when our spouses go through this. As much as you want to believe, as much as you know there is good inside of them, another side has come out/or has been hiding that you couldn't possibly prepare yourself to deal with. Everytime they say/do something nice or intimate, we want to believe it is 100% sincere and from the heart. What we have to realize is that their number one concern right now is themselves. NO ONE else. They might not want to hurt anyone, but they will if that is what it takes to get what they want, get where they want to get to, be who they want to be,be with who they want to be with, accumlate what they want to own, etc.

This is the part that almost, and I stress ALMOST makes me feel bad for the OW. Because they are getting the same treatment on the other end, whether they know it or not. I guess you could say that they have it coming, and maybe they do. But I'm sure even they have feelings, misdirected as they may be. Do they really and truly believe that they will be our spouses one and only true love??????? Do they realize they are/were used? I don' t know, and I'm not going to waste any more brain cells analyzing it, but it makes my point.

Please believe us when we say you will breathe a sigh of relief once the limbo has ended...whether by you or by your spouse. I think this is where detaching and letting it go really comes into play. Because once you master those two things, you are then free to continue your stand, or end your stand..but regardless you are no longer in limbo. Your daily life no longer revolves around WAS/OW. It revolves around you and your kid(s), the life you will rebuild around your own interests, friends and contacts. You can still stand for your marriage AND move on with your own life, live and learn. And THAT will only enrich your life more than it was before, whether your reconcile or not.